Debates of October 19, 2007 (day 2)

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. The honourable Premier, Mr. Roland.

Return To Question 2-16(1): Status Of The Deh Cho Bridge Project

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, as the government of the 16th Assembly, we're starting out on a path as we set priorities here for the Northwest Territories. I can't reference the work of the previous Assembly, as we are now in our time of government. What I can say is with the Deh Cho Bridge, we know where it's at in the sense of the agreements that were signed. There are a number of outstanding issues that this government has to look at when it comes to the final matters that are being worked on. The fact is, recently there was an advertisement put out on the navigable waters permit. That is one of the issues that are outstanding, so we're waiting to see the results of that and that lies in the federal government's hands at this time. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Supplementary, Mr. Ramsay.

Supplementary To Question 2-16(1): Status Of The Deh Cho Bridge Project

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Premier referenced contracts being signed and I know we don't want to go back to work that was done by the last government, but specifically what contracts have been signed and what are the obligations of the Government of the Northwest Territories -- and I'm talking about his government -- what are the obligations his government is going to have going forward on the Deh Cho Bridge project, Mr. Speaker? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Roland.

Further Return To Question 2-16(1): Status Of The Deh Cho Bridge Project

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, as Members are aware, the contracts that are being signed are not from the Government of the Northwest Territories; they are through the Deh Cho Bridge Corporation group as well as potential constructors of the bridge. There has been, from the work that was done previously, we know that there's a commitment to start some of the early earthwork process. But ultimately, no contracts or, from our government side, no liability is being held until we know, for example, they get the permits from the federal government as well as get an agreement on the final price of the bridge. We know there's some work done in that area, but those are the two issues that are outstanding and we're proceeding on that basis. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Supplementary, Mr. Ramsay.

Supplementary To Question 2-16(1): Status Of The Deh Cho Bridge Project

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I thank the Premier for that, but I'm trying to understand how the process is going to work. I haven't seen one contract; I haven't seen anything that's been signed by the Government of the Northwest Territories. I'm wondering if this government is going to be any different than the last government. Are they going to share information with the Regular Members of this House on the role out of the Deh Cho Bridge project, or is all going to be done in secret like the last government was doing? That's the question I have for the Premier. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Roland.

Further Return To Question 2-16(1): Status Of The Deh Cho Bridge Project

Mr. Speaker, we are going to be transparent in the work we do. Of course, much like our own work here in the Assembly, when we have areas of confidentiality, we're going to have to recognize those as well. I commit to inform Members as we progress on any number of projects that are out there; but as we establish where we are and the Ministers receive their assignments, they'll get up to speed in the specific areas and be ready to meet with Members when committees are structured. We will be ready to proceed at that time. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Final supplementary, Mr. Ramsay.

Supplementary To Question 2-16(1): Status Of The Deh Cho Bridge Project

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am just wondering in terms of costs. Is there a final cost on the Deh Cho Bridge project and the tolls that are going to be associated with this project? Where is the financing after this project, Mr. Speaker? That is the question I have. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Roland.

Further Return To Question 2-16(1): Status Of The Deh Cho Bridge Project

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, it is something we will need to, as we are just getting foothold here and proceeding, get up to date on where things are sitting right now. The fact is the information was shared with previous Members of the Assembly -- I believe it is public -- of where things were all based on the act that was put in place a number of years ago when the Deh Cho Bridge project first became live and a potential reality in the Northwest Territories. There is a commitment on the Government of the Northwest Territories' side. When it comes to the concession agreement, that is where the GNWT becomes involved and the potential impact of that tonnage, the toll that would be charged as the bridge is constructed all based on that act that was put in place in I believe in 2004. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to take this opportunity to just follow up on my Member’s statement, too, with regard to the government’s previous decision to turn the housing subsidy over to Education, Culture and Employment. I know that the government, in its infinite wisdom, thought that was one of the best ideas since sliced bread in the last Assembly to centralize services. But I know it is not working. I am sure they know it is not working. I have a friend back home who likes to play on words. They go from affordable and accessible to unaffordable and inaccessible programming in the NWT Housing Corporation. Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier to give me assurance, and my constituents, that this is a recognizable issue and that they will seek to address this issue or re-address it, Mr. Speaker. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. The honourable Premier, Mr. Roland.

Return To Question 3-16(1): Housing And Income Support Issues In The NWT

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, again, that is the beauty of our system of government. Only in consensus, when there are issues that come across the table, we will work with the committees in ensuring that we make the best necessary steps proceeding forward of concerns. We have heard those concerns. Is the program in need of revamping? Is it a total review? Is it a matter of adjustments or is it just a matter of ensuring that departments get their clear marching orders and told to get the job done? As I have committed to, I am prepared to work with Members and come up with a solution that would best impact the Northwest Territories' residents. Of course, we all have to live within the resources we have. That is going to be a challenge to all Members, to help in formulating the direction we go and what levels of programming we can set in place for our residents. I am prepared to work with Members, as well as the Cabinet Ministers, on coming up with the right solutions for residents of the Northwest Territories. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Supplementary, Mr. Menicoche.

Supplementary To Question 3-16(1): Housing And Income Support Issues In The NWT

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to thank the Premier for that answer. I don’t think, in this case, it is an issue of throwing more money at the Housing Corporation. I think this is the case of correcting a mistake that the government made. I think that government should look at this decision of centralizing income security programs, especially this when…

Do you have a question, Mr. Menicoche?

Mr. Speaker, I would like the Premier to state again his assurance that he will look at this issue.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Mr. Roland.

Further Return To Question 3-16(1): Housing And Income Support Issues In The NWT

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am definitely getting my exercise today on this box.

---Laughter

Thank you. The matter of the issue is -- and I agree with the Member; it is not all about money -- it is about coordination and how we get that done and setting clear targets and results from those targets. I expect, as we proceed down this path, that we are going to work hard and make sure the targets we set are reasonable and can be achieved. We will measure ourselves against those targets. Ultimately, it is going to be a challenge. As I have committed, we are ready to sit down and work with Members in these areas of importance across the Northwest Territories. Again, I am prepared to sit down with Members as we all get our new assignments and work together in ensuring we can provide the best level of services we are able to in the environment we are in. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Supplementary, Mr. Menicoche.

Supplementary To Question 3-16(1): Housing And Income Support Issues In The NWT

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Just returning to affordable and accessible housing, is the Premier aware that elders no longer have a housing program? Is he aware that people with low income are not eligible for housing programs? Where are they going to get this help, Mr. Speaker?

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Mr. Roland.

Further Return To Question 3-16(1): Housing And Income Support Issues In The NWT

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, let’s be clear; the fact is that we have not shut down housing for seniors. We have not shut down housing for those with low income or are on income support. Those are still available to residents across the Northwest Territories. There has been a change in the programming level and that coordination between the Housing Corporation and ECE. We need to have a review to see, in fact, why we are having problems in communities.

As was said across the floor in statements earlier, the fact is we also hear from our constituents in the Northwest Territories. Along with you, we are working together to serve the interests of the people. We have heard about the line-ups or in fact those that were in housing who never had a problem with arrears before, now suddenly have a problem with arrears. We are going to have to look and review how this is implemented and ensure it is done right. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Final supplementary, Mr. Menicoche.

Supplementary To Question 3-16(1): Housing And Income Support Issues In The NWT

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I respectfully disagree with the Premier. I do have elders and low income people not accessing the programs. I have one final point, Mr. Speaker. Can this government consider looking at changing the Housing Corporation from a business entity into a housing department which can better serve the public of the NWT? Mahsi cho.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. Mr. Roland.

Further Return To Question 3-16(1): Housing And Income Support Issues In The NWT

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Again, that is the beauty of our system, consensus government. As we sit down and look at the priorities of the 16th Legislative Assembly, if it is agreeable by Members of this Assembly that we take a serious look at how that is structured and how it may be restructured, that is something that we will work together on. I will commit to working with Members on looking at the effectiveness and efficiency of government across the board. Thank you.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I, too, would like to speak to the matter in regards to the social housing reforms and the restructure of programs and services. Mr. Speaker, the department of the Housing Corporation gave $30 million to the Department of Education, Culture and Employment by way of income support. That $30 million was in place to subsidize housing in the Northwest Territories. We did not have a problem with arrears, the increased amount of rent in our communities, before this took place, but yet, Mr. Speaker, we have a crisis on our hands in all of our communities across the Northwest Territories in regards to the way this program has been delivered.

I think we should consider if something is broke, let’s fix it and if something is not broke, well, then, let’s use it. But in this case, we have an issue that is broken. We have to fix it. I suggest to the Premier that we consider going back and admit we made a mistake to the way things were where we didn’t have these problems. I would like to ask the Minister, can you commit to enforcing the Housing Program as it was prior to revising the programs where we gave $30 million to ECE which now it does not work?

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. The honourable Premier, Mr. Roland.

Return To Question 4-16(1): Social Housing Program Delivery Issues

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, as we know, we have a long history in the Northwest Territories, returning Members as well, and maybe some of us have short memories.

---Laughter

The fact is, even from the 13th Legislative Assembly, the whole area of our package of supports we have out there for residents of the Northwest Territories has been looked at. I recall even back in the 13th Assembly as a Regular Member on Social Programs, the topic of better coordination of our programs was critical because we had elders, those in low income housing, going to four or five different doors in a community to access support from the Government of the Northwest Territories. That itself was uncoordinated, not cost effective and was leading to some confusion for people who needed the service. Since that day, there was work done in trying to come up with a more coordinated fashion. I believe we need to look at how that coordination is happening. If we have to as we review, were those initial steps the right ones to take? The fact is, a lot of our programs we have out there, well over $100 million goes towards providing support for people in the Northwest Territories that are in need. We are going to have to continue with working on how do we best put that forward and how do we best utilize those limited dollars to ensure those most in need get the help they need. We also need people across the Northwest Territories to accept some of the responsibility and getting some of that programming that is available to them. We are willing to work with people across the Territories. We are willing to work with Members in building a better solution for the people of the Northwest Territories. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Supplementary, Mr. Krutko.

Supplementary To Question 4-16(1): Social Housing Program Delivery Issues

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, again, I would like to ask the Premier, as we know, the majority of people that are now paying rent in social housing are paying economic rent. The $30 million that was there was supposed to subsidize and offset that rent so the individuals will pay a certain amount towards shelter, not the total amount of rent. That is the problem that we have with this program. Would the Premier consider looking at and evaluating the number of people that are in arrears in all of our housing authorities throughout the Northwest Territories? Were they ever in arrears? Exactly why is it that there has been such a major increase in that number since this program was implemented?

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Roland.

Further Return To Question 4-16(1): Social Housing Program Delivery Issues

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I don’t know if this is the first time in the history of a new government that on the first day one person should have all the information.

---Applause

Mr. Speaker, I am willing to take on that challenge and so does the rest of Cabinet. I have committed already that we will re-evaluate how this is going, the implementation of that. As soon as we go through the assignments of portfolios to Ministers, they will be tasked with a number of items. Then one of the first things we will have to start doing is building that strategic plan that we will, together as 19 Members, put forward and the business plan, the budget that we will put in place for the first budget of this government and working with Members. We are going to have to identify what is working and what is not working and where we put our priorities. I have committed to work with Members on this specific issue. We will sit down with Members as soon as we can. Thank you.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Supplementary, Mr. Krutko.

Supplementary To Question 4-16(1): Social Housing Program Delivery Issues

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I believe this is a crisis situation. We don’t have time to come back to the Members, work through the business plan. This is a crisis situation that we are in in the Northwest Territories. As a new Cabinet and a new Premier, I suggest that this is the first step that you take in regards to finding a solution to this major problem we have in the Northwest Territories and report back to this House in our next sitting in November.

---Applause

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I bet the Premier wishes he had assigned portfolios before this morning, but we are ready to go. We are ready to get into business here. I made a promise, Mr. Speaker, to a constituent during the campaign that at the first available opportunity I would stand up in this House and raise an issue with respect to housing and seniors' housing programs. Right now, if you are fortunate enough to live in social housing as a senior over 60, you pay no rent. It is not means tested. However, if I am a senior living in my own home and I need to access a repair program to make my house more affordable because I don’t have that, that program is means tested and to the point that if I need $15,000 or $20,000 for work done to my house as a senior, I have to agree to put a mortgage on my house in order to ensure the government’s investment in that house. The rationale is that I might get that $20,000 or $25,000 of work done to my house and I might sell it. But how do you reconcile that with the fact that the person that is getting free rent did sell their house and put the money in the bank? I would like to ask the Premier today, would he agree not to means test the free housing but, for heaven’s sakes, don’t means test the seniors' programs and penalize those who are struggling in independent homes they own themselves. It has to be fair. This is highly discriminatory. Would you agree to make it fair across the board, no means test, no mortgage on those seniors' houses who own their own home who want to access seniors' programs? Thank you.

---Applause

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. The honourable Premier, Mr. Roland.

Return To Question 5-16(1): Senior Housing Programs

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the fact is, that is another good question that we are going to have to look at as a new Government of the Northwest Territories. The challenge is how do we come up with the right balance? The Member is right in saying that anybody in public housing, a senior has no rent to pay but a senior who is in an old folks’ home, for example, pays rent, pays a significant amount of rent as well as anybody who is in a level of care that requires other supports from the Government of the Northwest Territories. So somebody who is in a long-term care home, for example, they have to pay rent. Somebody who is in an old folks’ home has to pay rent. Those in public housing, the Member is correct, don’t pay rent. So we do need to look at a balance. I do not believe we can afford to go on open slate because we do have to set some thresholds. There are individuals who have managed very well over their lives in the Northwest Territories and who can afford to make some of the renovations where we can help. All the Housing Corporation programs for housing assistance, repair, new homes, they are all attached to a timeline of having the Housing Corporation have first rights in a sense of potential payback if somebody decides to sell. So that is going to be a part of the programming we have to review. Thresholds will have to be reviewed as we look at the cost of living in the Northwest Territories. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Supplementary To Question 5-16(1): Senior Housing Programs

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, why should the Housing Corporation have first rights to the proceeds of a sale of a senior’s home who accessed a repair program and yet they would have absolutely no issue with somebody selling their house, putting the money in the bank and getting free housing? I am not trying to take that away from the people who do get that. That was a program in place. People accessed it. Good for them. That is the parameters that we set out, but it is highly discriminatory. I will tell you another thing that is highly discriminatory with our housing is that the government comes into the community, they build units and duplexes.

Do you have a question, Mrs. Groenewegen?

How can you discriminate on the grounds of marital status? That is against the human rights code to do that. How can you tell a couple you can have a free seat here, and then leave somebody alone, a widow or a widower by themselves trying to support an independent housing unit?