Debates of October 19, 2007 (day 2)

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Roland.

Further Return To Question 5-16(1): Senior Housing Programs

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, obviously the Minister that I assign the Housing portfolio to will be busy from day one trying to get a grasp of the issue again for the Northwest Territories.

---Laughter

Through the years, programs have been set up, adjusted, tinkered with, amended and changed. I think this is a prime example of where we, as a government, need to look at. The programs we have in place, how were they developed? Are they meeting the needs that they were intended to? Some programs were put in place from almost the inception of the Government of the Northwest Territories or when a program is transferred from the federal government. So we have a challenge before us, as Members, to re-evaluate the programs we deliver to the people of the Northwest Territories. Are they meeting the needs they were designed for? Are they still needed in this environment? I think, with the cooperation of Members of this House, that is something we need to do, is have a serious look at the programming that we have in place and how efficient and effective it is. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Supplementary To Question 5-16(1): Senior Housing Programs

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The programming for seniors is a very good program in the Northwest Territories; however, it needs to be fixed. I am not suggesting we take anything away from it. However, I am saying we create a level play field. At a high level, in terms of principle, will the Premier agree that we, as a government, should not discriminate against people on the basis of their income nor on the basis of their marital status? Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Roland.

Further Return To Question 5-16(1): Senior Housing Programs

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, first and foremost, I must apologize to the seniors of the Northwest Territories. I use the term old folks and that is one I grew up with in the community of Inuvik, so I must apologize. Properly, it is seniors of the Northwest Territories. So with that, the question about the discrimination or the balance, I believe we do have to look at where we are. Ultimately, throughout the Northwest Territories and, in fact, it is quite a coincidental question because the alignment of income support and Housing Program was trying to make a level playing field for everybody who accessed the government programs. That is the thing we need to look at. Are we creating a level playing field? At some point, income is going to play a role in the decision-making or a cut-off for the Northwest Territories. We just can’t afford to have an open plate for anybody who came to the door in the Northwest Territories for any specific program, whether it be housing or so on. But we do have to recognize the importance that seniors play in the Northwest Territories. I think we have tried over the years. I think, if we compared ourselves to the rest of the jurisdictions across Canada, we have one of the better programs in the Northwest Territories. We need to make sure we maintain an appropriate level of care and a fair, level playing field. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I want to get back to questions on the Deh Cho Bridge project. I wasn’t left with a really good feeling after hearing the Premier talk about how his government is going to operate differently than the last government on providing this House with assurances on how the project is moving along. I am talking about information and information sharing. How is his government going to be any different than the last one, Mr. Speaker? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Honourable Premier, Mr. Roland.

Return To Question 6-16(1): Status Of The Deh Cho Bridge Project

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I am looking at where we will go forward, not how we go backward. So I think as we put out there, I am one who will stand on the fact that we will be open and work with Members of this Assembly. It’s a two-way street here. We need to work together. If we provide information to Members that is confidential so that you can feel that we are doing the appropriate thing, then we need to be secure that we have that information to you in confidence. We are early days in this government. As a new Transportation Minister is assigned, one of their tasks will be to get up to speed with where the files are and be prepared to sit down with Members as they are ready to go, as well. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Supplementary, Mr. Ramsay.

Supplementary To Question 6-16(1): Status Of The Deh Cho Bridge Project

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The only information we got during the life of the last government, we got high-level information on what was happening and really we were only consulted when the government wanted to go ahead and increase the loan guarantee. I certainly think we do need to work together. The information needs to come back and forth. The legislation the Premier in the last government and this government is relying on is only a vehicle to get a bridge built. It’s got no numbers in it. It’s very difficult for us when the government is making decisions, especially on spending, without coming back to Regular Members and asking our opinion. So again, I would like to ask the Premier how is his government going to operate differently? Are we going to be able to see the concession agreement? Are we going to be able to see the contracts that have been signed? What has been signed? We don’t even know what has been signed yet. I would like to ask him that question, Mr. Speaker. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. There were about two or three questions there. You can answer one or all three. Thank you. Mr. Roland.

Further Return To Question 6-16(1): Status Of The Deh Cho Bridge Project

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the challenge will be -- and I fully expect we are going to be held accountable on the information we share with Members -- if it’s seen as only high level or it’s seen as a lot of information but really of no worth. So I am committing to work with Members and provide absolutely the best information we can. Of course, we have parameters around how we can operate. I am going to commit to you and Members of this Assembly to share the information that is necessary to make sure we make good decisions for residents of the Northwest Territories. The parameter, the act that was put in place, put parameters in place of what can be done and not be done. We have to live within those. Ultimately it is the will of the Assembly, the House, whether it changes a bill or not. Right now, that’s what we have to operate in and there are a number of factors that are still out there that need to come back for final consideration. That is the final costs, the financial arrangements, the agreement with the federal government on the permit that is necessary. Once a new Minister is put in place, he will have to come up to speed in that area and be prepared to meet with Members. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Short supplementary, Mr. Ramsay.

Supplementary To Question 6-16(1): Status Of The Deh Cho Bridge Project

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, when it comes to the commitment and the expenditure of public funds, I don’t think there is such a thing as confidential. Let’s be realistic about that. They are public funds. They are going to be expended in an area. I don’t believe that’s confidential, Mr. Speaker. Is the Government of the Northwest Territories past the point of no return on the Deh Cho Bridge? Are we proceeding with the Deh Cho Bridge when we don’t even know what it’s going to cost us? Are we past the point of no return, Mr. Speaker? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Mr. Roland.

Further Return To Question 6-16(1): Status Of The Deh Cho Bridge Project

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, there are facts out there. I am not going into the previous work of the life of the 15th Assembly. We have to move forward on what we have and the information we have. Let’s put the facts out there. The number that’s been talked about in the media, in the agreement and information, was $150 million. The Deh Cho Bridge Corporation is working on securing its final pieces of financing out there. The government’s responsibility will be what’s announced out there and been put out there for public record and that is the cost of operating the ferry today, plus approximately between $1.5 million and $2 million annually and then the rest of the cost. The reason they were getting this financing put in place is because it’s self-liquidating in the sense that the tolls that we establish will help pay for this bridge over a 35-year period. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, just following up on my previous questions, I would just like to ask the Premier for a commitment here today that he will come back to this House at the next sitting, which I believe is November, and seriously give us some options with regard to the problem with housing, the income reform program and also to make sure that the $30 million, clarify the $31 million that was transferred to ECE for 14 additional positions on top of the subsidy, is it being expended with regard to the way it was originally intended and why is it that there are so many people in arrears in housing now because of it?

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. There’s a couple of questions there. Honourable Premier, Mr. Roland.

Return To Question 7-16(1): Social Housing Program Delivery Issues

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have committed that once the assignment of portfolios is done, the appropriate Ministers will get up to speed on the particulars within their departments and be prepared to sit down with Members to come up with where things are and answer those questions. When we come back for our next sitting, we will have that information available as to where things are today. More importantly, we need to sit down together as 19 Members to come up with where we think we should be as the 16th Legislative Assembly and that work needs to be done, as well. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Supplementary, Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we’ve been sitting around for the last week talking about issues and priorities and I believe this is one of the top issues that has been on all our minds. As a Premier, I would suggest that one of the first things you do is clearly look at reforming this program back to the way it was when it was working. The subsidy was being implemented; every homeowner or income support person was able to access that program and we didn’t say sorry, you’re drinking, you’re late for your appointment, walk the streets for three months and…

Do you have a question, Mr. Krutko?

Supplementary To Question 7-16(1): Social Housing Program Delivery Issues

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier that he does make this a priority, come back to the next sitting in this House and have some answers as to how he sees government making a difference in this program.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Roland.

Further Return To Question 7-16(1): Social Housing Program Delivery Issues

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the commitment I made is we will get back to Members when we get back for our next sitting, or sooner if we can, when committees are set up in specific areas and dealing with specific departments. Ultimately, we need to sit down, as I stated earlier, and look at whether the program is working. There are enough Members here who recall the reason this initiative was taken is there were numerous complaints across the territory. The Housing Program, subsidy levels were not working. They needed to be changed, so we started that work in earnest to try to come up with a package that would work and creating a level playing field for people across the playing field. Clearly, there are issues in communities now as this has happened. So we will have to take a look at that. We will be prepared, with the time limit we are in, to come up with information as to where it is this day and be prepared to sit down and start working with Members. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Short supplementary, Mr. Krutko.

Supplementary To Question 7-16(1): Social Housing Program Delivery Issues

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, with regard to the program itself, I would also like to have the Premier look at the 14 positions that were also handed over to ECE because they said they didn’t have the capacity. Because of that, it seems like the program has been a crisis ever since. I assume that because of that, we don’t have the capacity and we are not delivering it right. So I would like to ask the Premier to also look at that.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko. Mr. Roland.

Further To Question 7-16(1): Social Housing Program Delivery Issues

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As I stated earlier, I have committed that we are going to have a look at this and that will be part of the review.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Short supplementary, Mr. Krutko.

Supplementary To Question 7-16(1): Social Housing Program Delivery Issues

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I hope it’s more than just looking at it; I hope that he’s going to come back with something that’s solid, that gives us some options and we’re able to act, as a government and as 19 Members, to make a difference to the people of the Northwest Territories.

Right away!

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to follow up on the questions asked by my colleague Mr. Ramsay with respect to the Deh Cho Bridge. There’s a verse in the Bible, that I know Mr. Roland will be familiar with, that says, “No man builds a house without first counting the cost.” This is an anomaly; this is a public/private partnership, but we are the public piece of that partnership and I still cannot seem to get into my head whether or not we, as a government, have had the opportunity to consider the cost. I’m not prepared to sign a blank cheque. I haven’t even been asked if I want to sign a blank cheque. You know, there is a piece of this that we are party to that we can’t get answers on, and it’s big. We started off with a $50 million bridge at a certain toll and a contribution of this government. Those are the three principles of the business plan that we started off with. The price has changed, the toll has changed and, certainly, I have no idea to what extent our contribution has changed. I don’t know and I want the Premier to be able to answer those questions here today. Indexed? What is it? One million? Two million? I heard one and a half to two million. We need to make those kinds of decisions. We never throw out, in any decisions we make, we never throw out the opportunity to have input and to assess those kinds of investments. Why on this case, and are we past the point of return? Tell me. I need to know that. Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. The honourable Premier, Mr. Roland.

Return To Question 8-16(1): Funding For Deh Cho Bridge Project

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, let me tell Members right now, residents of the Northwest Territories, I am not prepared to sign a blank cheque either. I think that’s one of the challenges we’re going to be faced with, as we’ve heard about as Members have got together is one of the issues we have to deal with is the capital infrastructure in that area, the cost of it in the Northwest Territories. Can we meet that need? We’re going to have to ensure the deal that is signed, that we are involved with, is one that can be honoured and can be delivered on what is agreed to. The financing, the tonnage, it all has to fit within the act that was established. That’s what we have to live with right now because that’s in place. The other commitments that we made that are over and beyond that, I’m prepared to share that with Members once we get that information, and I’m prepared to sit down with Members to go through that in detail. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Short supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Supplementary To Question 8-16(1): Funding For Deh Cho Bridge Project

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As I understand it, the act is a vehicle by which this process can proceed; however, the detail of it is left open and that’s why we’re able to have discussions about, you know, can we still afford our contribution. It used to be just the cost of the ice road and the ferry and now we’re talking about perhaps another $2 million a year indexed over the next 35 years. We just need to see that. We need to know what that is, and we don’t know right now. It seems open ended. Is there a point at which our involvement in this will cause this government to say, no, stop? Is it too late for that? Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Roland.

Further Return To Question 8-16(1): Funding For Deh Cho Bridge Project

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, it’s not too late. The 16th Assembly and its mandate has not signed a deal on proceeding forward in the sense of the no-go or no-stop point. Like the Monopoly board, once you pass go, collect your $200 and go on; we’re not there yet. There are some key issues that are still left out there and one of those that was in the paper for public interest was that navigable waters permit. So that’s one of those things, and a final financing deal that comes down. So we’ll be prepared to sit down with that detail when we get it and inform Members of where we are. I’m not prepared to sign a blank cheque, as I stated earlier. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Supplementary To Question 8-16(1): Funding For Deh Cho Bridge Project

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Then I have to ask this Premier, what was the purpose of the trip to Fort Providence, then, with the golden shovels, standing on the banks of the Mackenzie River on the very last day of this government before it dissolved? What was the purpose of that? Was there an actual contract signed in conjunction with that process, or was that just a, you know, a show of some kind of psychological commitment that we’re proceeding with the bridge? Where’s the legal document? Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. I don’t know if the Premier wants to answer that, kind of leaning towards what the last government did, but I’ll allow the Minister to if he wants to answer. Mr. Roland.

Further Return To Question 8-16(1): Funding For Deh Cho Bridge Project

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I won’t go into the decisions of the past government, but where we are today, what’s in place was a limited agreement to proceed, and that is a minimal amount of work. There is some commitment that Members were aware of, and the government’s loan guarantee that we have on the books today, and that’s the limit that we are faced with today. We have to get the rest of the details to proceed with the actual work and ordering of steel and so on and so forth. Once we get that information, we get the details, I am prepared to sit down with Members. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. Final, short supplementary, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Supplementary To Question 8-16(1): Funding For Deh Cho Bridge Project

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, our Premier is being very helpful with this and I do appreciate this information and I’m sure the public does, as well. So right now, then, as I understand it, the only commitment that this government has is the extent of the loan guarantee, which I believe is around $5 million. We are not liable at this point in time for anything further than the loan guarantee for around $5 million on the Deh Cho Bridge project? Is it nine? Oh, it was five last time I heard it. Ever grows. Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Mr. Roland.

Further Return To Question 8-16(1): Funding For Deh Cho Bridge Project