Mr. Chairman, MLA Roland provided a letter of support for the issue supporting the negotiated contract. That was the only letter of support that was given by the MLA for Inuvik Boot Lake. Any further business following that was just a matter of taking care of business in his capacity as the Chair of the FMB. There were no further letters of support of any kind for anything further, so the issue of potential conflict occurred when the negotiated contract was brought forward and there were letters of support from all the MLAs from the region as well as all the aboriginal governments as well as the town.
Thank you, Minister Miltenberger. Next on my list is Mr. Bromley.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to go back to the school in Hay River, Diamond Jenness school, which has had its major work postponed by two years. I understand there is some deferred maintenance work to be aimed at this school in the interim. I am also aware that there was a considerable amount of work done to assess the situation with the school starting at least in 2003 with reports in 2006 and later. Originally the substantial amount of work was to be scheduled for 2009–2010. That was what we’d sort of agreed on last year. I’m wondering what work is being planned for making sure that that school is safe and sufficiently maintained in the interim, at least for this year.
Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Mr. Aumond.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. With respect to Diamond Jenness school we have no deferred maintenance money identified, because we have a capital project on the books starting in 2010–2011. However, we are, just through our own base maintenance funding, spending in excess of $100,000 a year to maintain that school. We will continue to do so, and we will maintain that school to a level so that it’s safe and appropriate to deliver the school program until the capital project is completed.
Thank you for those comments. Given that major work was scheduled for this coming fiscal year, as short a time ago was this year or less than a year ago, I assume that considerable planning has been done for that work. Given that, should money be available for ’09–10, I’m assuming that a substantive amount of money could be productively spent in ’09–10 on that school. Is that correct?
The amount of planning and work that’s gone into identifying, I guess, what remedial action needs to take place at the school is from a technical perspective; i.e., the building envelope: foundation, mechanical, electrical and so on and so forth. As Members may recall from last week, we know that Education is undertaking an education plan for some program enhancements. We do not yet know what that program or enhancements may be and what the result may be for changing how the school is laid out and how that may impact any electrical/mechanical renovations we may have to undertake to include those enhancements. So we can’t really proceed with the renovation of the school until we have the program finalized and we’re able to look at that and incorporate that into the design of the renovation.
Thank you for the reminder of that earlier discussion. My impression is that the renovation would go on over the course of several years, perhaps three or more, and that they would be a fairly large suite of things given the state of the school, some of which would involve, you know, a thorough marriage between the physical maintenance of the building or renovation and the education plan but some of which surely would not. So I would like to ask a little more specifically: are there some significant renovations outside of that which would require an education plan that could be done and for which there has been some planning done?
Mr. Chair, I can’t really say, because I have yet to see what the education plan looks like and sort of what the thinking behind the plan is and how it may change the layout of the school. So I can’t say what could or could not be in place, because I’ve yet to see the plan.
Something seems inconsistent here, given that we had planned quite a number of millions of dollars for this ’09–10 as short a time as less than a year ago. I’m detecting some inconsistencies there. I don’t have any specific further questions. I appreciate those comments.
Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Next on my list is Mr. Ramsay.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just had a few more comments on the Inuvik schools, if I could, similar to questions I have raised in the past and comments I have had in the past getting back to accountability. Again, I am supportive of the schools being replaced in Inuvik, but if you look at what the public sector would do if they had to replace an aging piece of infrastructure, it would have happened and it would have happened in a much more timely fashion. I don’t think we would have seen the scope changes, the design changes. I know that departments are up against it, because they’ve got a bunch of interested parties with district authority there in Inuvik. Things can get off the rails quite quickly.
But at the end of the day, when it is public money and the scope is changing — the design is changing, it seems like, on the fly — that comes with a price. Every time you change the design or you change the scope, it’s got to cost $100,000 or maybe even more. We’ve seen the project escalate in cost substantially — 35, 40 per cent. From where I sit, I have to worry: why does it take so long?
Now, the letter of intent for the negotiating contract went out in July, and here we are past the middle of October and still we don’t have a deal. We don’t have a firm price. We don’t have any of the security in place, and the negotiations are not concluded with the contract. I find that hard to believe — how it could take that long to sign off on this.
We need to get it done. We should have got it done. This should have been a number one priority of the government, and it seems to just keep slipping and slipping. The costs keep escalating. From an accountability standpoint we need to find out what has happened and make sure it doesn’t happen again, because we really need to replace the schools in Inuvik. That’s the bottom line.
I think we need a tighter way of handling things. If it’s been allowed to slip this much…. It has been over four years since the roof collapsed there. Here we are still talking about this. I just find it troublesome. Perhaps the Minister could comment on where the accountability lies in this with the escalation in costs, because I really do think we need to be accountable for the way this has gone off the rails.
Thank you Mr. Ramsay. Minister Miltenberger.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to refer that question to Minister Michael McLeod.
Thank you, Minister Miltenberger. Minister Michael McLeod.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Member raised a very important concern that we are currently reviewing as part of our committee that looks at the infrastructure process. Allowing projects to move along quickly is something that we certainly need to incorporate in our planning. Moving the capital approval process into the fall session is part of that.
We have had some discussion for quite a few years with the community, with the other departments involved, trying to bring this to a conclusion. This is not the first estimate that was provided to us. We had the community involved that brought forward a number of things that they wanted to incorporate into the school. We had many discussions, many meetings to see what could be accommodated and who would pay for it. At the end of the day, with the first round of discussions and the first schematic designs that came forward, the price was a lot higher than it is currently. It was rejected. We had to start again with a new design, with a new approach and more simplified architecture and also a reduction in the floor space. That’s where we made progress with the proponents.
We also had to include and incorporate a better foundation design that would incorporate the strengthening of the foundation to address the permafrost and the soil conditions. Also, one of the things that we incorporated into this building is energy efficiency. We included a program in here that would see us save a lot of money in the area of heating this facility. Overall, during that time period, while we went back and forth with the community and departments, we’ve seen the cost of all our projects escalate, and so did the cost of this one.
We would like to change the process so that we don’t build false expectations in the communities when we go forward unless the community is willing to pay for it. We want to be able to bring projects to a peer review stage before we bring them in front of committee, before we bring them in front of Committee of the Whole, things of that nature, so that we don’t end up in this situation again.
However, Mr. Chair, we have a good price, we feel. We’ve analyzed it. We think all precautionary measures have been taken so that we have a good project, and we’re quite comfortable that we will end up with a good result.
I thank the Minister for that. I agree with what he’s saying. I wasn’t a Member of the Legislative Assembly during the life of the 14th Legislative Assembly when North Slave Correctional Centre was built, but that building and the young offenders unit that joins it were built at millions and millions of dollars. I forget the final figure. It was probably $20 million over budget, maybe even more.
You would think that as a government we would learn a thing or two along the way. When you go to a construction method that allows designs to change on the fly, it’s going to cost you money. So why wouldn’t we know exactly what we want and exactly how it’s going to be built, get the design etched in stone, and then go out and get it built? What we allow ourselves to do is this design-build, and then things get all muddy; the design changes and the scope changes, and it costs us nothing but money. On large capital projects we can’t just continue to allow so many people…. They say too many cooks in the kitchen, and that’s what’s happening. That’s what’s costing us lots of money.
I know the Minister and the deputy minister are alive to these concerns as we’re going through the change in the capital acquisition planning process and everything. These are legitimate concerns. We oftentimes, too, just spec buildings out to the nth degree. We get the best of the best all the time. I’ve heard that from a number of contractors around the territory. When the government goes out and looks for a contractor to build something, it’s spec’d…. A good example is the Combined Services Building at YZF. It’s spec’d to the teeth. Some schools that have been built recently have lights in them that are ten times the cost of a regular light that would go in a classroom. We always seem to go for the best of the best. What we really need to keep an eye on is the functionality and usefulness of the facilities that we are building in any community across the territory.
We have to get the most out of our capital dollars that we can, and right now I don’t think we are. This Inuvik schools project is just another example of us bleeding money away when we don’t really need to. We need to get some schools built. That’s the bottom line. We just seem to keep spinning our tires, and it takes too long, Mr. Chairman.
I’ve got great concerns, especially on the larger capital projects, that we don’t seem to learn our lesson. History is going to repeat itself again.
Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Minister Miltenberger.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Member raises some good points. We are in a time of transition with the planning process. This is our first cycle through, for example, having changed the capital planning process to the fall. We’ve struck an infrastructure subcommittee to look at a lot of the issues in regard to this process. We all know very well, those of us that have been here any length of time…. The North Slave Correctional Centre, the first P3 they built in Fort Smith back in the 13th Assembly, was the last one they built at the time, as well, because of all the issues that came out of it.
We recognize there are things that we’re trying to do, as Minister McLeod indicated. We want to have a tighter cycle, a better peer review. We’re looking at bundling projects. We’re looking at standardized designs. We want to, as the Member has indicated, not overdesign buildings or bring in fittings that are so exclusive and rare that they’re incredibly expensive. Those things are underway.
This project, as has been pointed out, has been in the pipeline now for quite a few years. So we’re going to be in a time of transition here, as we make these significant changes to our infrastructure planning process. We have to work our way through to be able to show the new improvements that we intend to bring forward collectively here as the Legislature.
Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Next on my list is Ms. Bisaro.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I’d like to return to a discussion of the delayed, deferred school project in Hay River. I’d like to follow up on some of Mr. Bromley’s questions that he listed and a few of my own.
I know this project’s been delayed. I have heard that the education program — or lack of one or the need to plan for one — is the reason for delay, but is that the only reason that this project was delayed two years?
Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. Mr. Aumond.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes.
Thank you for the answer. I guess that leads nicely into my next question. How long does it generally take to develop an education program, and when was this one first started?
Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. Mr. Miltenberger.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I’ll refer that education question to Minister Lafferty.
Thank you, Minister Miltenberger. Minister Lafferty.
Mahsi, Mr. Chairman. The program enhancement that we’re talking about, that education plan, has been in the works since we started this fall, and it will be completed by the end of October. So once we complete the session, the education plan will be underway. Then we will continue to meet with PWS to continue moving forward on this particular school project.
Okay. Thanks for that answer. We approved $800,000 for this particular project in the ’08–09 capital budget; February, I think, we approved it. My understanding was that was planning money. So if we’re going to have an educational program done at the end of this month — I think that’s what the Minister said — I wonder when planning for renovations can take place. If the educational program is there, we know what’s required in terms of the technical requirements, building envelope, upgrades and so on. When do we expect that planning is going to start to develop some sort of drawings for this particular project?
Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. Mr. Aumond.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Once the educational program plan is complete, work will begin immediately to start to develop the design for the renovation.
I guess I just have one last question. Mr. Bromley sort of alluded to the fact that there’s a bit of a discrepancy here, and I’m having the same difficulty. In the capital budget for ’08–09 we approved $800,000 for this current year, and it earmarked $15 million for this project in ’09–10. Now that $15 million is gone, and there is nothing for that particular school project in the ’09–10 budget. I’m having difficulty understanding how — I think it was February we passed the capital budget — in February of this year we expected, I would presume, construction with a $15 million tag to start in ’09–10, and now, all of a sudden, we’re not going to be able to do anything until at least ’10–11 or main construction in ’11–12.
My question is: was there an expectation in February of this year that construction for this school project would start in ’09–10?
Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. Minister Miltenberger.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I’ll refer that question to Minister Michael McLeod.
Thank you, Minister Miltenberger. Minister Michael McLeod.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is important, I think, to point out that initially Diamond Jenness was targeted for a midlife retrofit. Our department, the Department of Public Works and Services, did a midlife review and a technical evaluation on the project. We provided a report that indicated it would cost around $21 million to retrofit the building completely. We were prepared to move ahead. However, the midlife retrofit would not accommodate any new program areas or new changes in design. It would be renovated to the specs and design that it is currently in, and we would not allow for any other areas that were wanted to enhance what is already there.
Since then there has been, including when we did the visit, a real desire by the community and by the administration of the school to change where some of the walls are located and the systems that needed to be upgraded in terms of air and water. Those types of things were recognized. We needed the Department of Education to go back and do a program review or an education program requirement assessment. That is currently being conducted. From there, once we’ve had a good understanding of what we need to accommodate in this facility, it’ll come back to Public Works for design. Once the design is done, then we’ll move to construction.
We’re probably looking at a $30 million plus project now if we accommodate all the different areas that need to be addressed, including the area that was mentioned by the Member for Hay River South for construction programs and things of that nature. There are a lot of things that the communities are interested in incorporating into this facility. The initial assessment that we did as Public Works was only to do the retrofit and leave things the way they were.
Thanks for the explanation. To the time required to develop and design.... So we have an educational program at the end of this year. We know what the technical upgrades and requirements are. What is the time period to get to a working design that can be used for determining construction?
Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. Mr. Aumond.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. It is really going to depend upon what changes to the school are going to be resulting from the education program. If we don’t have to change too much of the structure itself or the way the school is laid out, then we can probably proceed quite quickly. If we’re going to have to be moving or changing the way the school is laid out or moving classrooms around, undertaking more extensive electrical or structural work than we would have if we were just doing a midlife retrofit, then it will take longer to design those. Until we see the program, it is going to be very difficult for us to say with some degree of accuracy how long that process might take.
I understand the difficulty in giving me a time frame. Can I get a rough idea of whether it’s between three months and three years, or three months and one year? I won’t hold you to it, but an estimate would be helpful.
We will endeavour to undertake this as expeditiously as we can. If we’re able to come up with a solution that would allow us to proceed faster than we would normally, we will look for that. But again, until I see what the program looks like, it is going to be very difficult to say with any certainty how long it will take.
I don’t know how to rephrase that question. I guess my last question would be relative to…. Well, it kind of has to do with planning, but if money were available, could construction start in the summer or fall of ’09?
Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. Minister Miltenberger.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We indicated to the committee late last week, or sometime last week, that if things moved ahead, if the educational planning and other design work was done and it was in everyone’s best interest, we would attempt to fast track what could be done early.
Thank you, Minister Miltenberger. Next on my list is Mr. Beaulieu.
Mahsi cho, Mr. Chair. I’m just trying to get some information on the two schools in Tu Nedhe. I didn’t have an opportunity….
Inuvik?
Tu Nedhe.
Oh, sorry. I didn’t see them in the capital plan.
Laughter.
They’re not there.
I know that under one actual program and one planning document, in the 20-year assessment, there is a midlife retrofit scheduled for all of the buildings that belong to the GNWT, including the Deninu School and Lutselk’e. My first question is: what’s the plan for midlife retrofit in those two schools? If it’s occurred recently and I’m not familiar with it, then I’d like to know that as well. But, first of all, the midlife retrofit schedule for the Deninu Ku’e and Lutselk’e schools.
