Debates of October 28, 2009 (day 9)

Mr. Chairman, we would be happy to consider all possibilities as we move forward. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister Michael McLeod. We are on page 9-10, Transportation, activity summary, highways, infrastructure investment summary, total infrastructure investment summary, $63.919 million.

Speaker: SOME HON. MEMBERS

Agreed.

We will move along to page 9-14, which is Transportation. Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just had a few questions as it pertains to the Deh Cho Bridge toll system. I know the bridge is being delayed for at least a year. The redesign isn’t concluded so the logical question is, why does the government find it necessary to put $600,000 in the capital plan? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Minister McLeod.

Mr. Chairman, under our responsibilities and under the conditions of the concession agreement, it falls under our responsibility to develop and to design and supply, install, upgrade and manage the whole toll system. There are two components to the toll system. In the capital budget, we have already received approval for the $400,000 for last year. This year, we are looking for an additional $600,000 in this budget. There are two areas that will be considered or will be invested in. This is, first of all, to do with vehicle counts and classification. For the most part, that has already been started and being worked on, also, the toll collection and administrative portions for the next 2010-11. The plan is to have the tolls collected through a permanent call centre and an account-based system for larger commercial vehicles. We also need to build and develop the pullouts and install a direct line to the call centre.

The Member has indicated that the bridge has been delayed. Well, we haven’t formally delayed the bridge. We have given all the indicators that there will be a delay. The plan was to have the bridge in place and completed with traffic crossing by November of 2010. We know that is going to be very difficult to achieve. We expect that the delay will be anywhere from six months to a year. We need to have all systems in place ready to go, depending on what the delay is. If we defer this portion of our responsibility for a year and the bridge is ready and traffic volumes are crossing, we will be losing out. We have to be ready to start counting traffic. We are already looking at classifying and trying to determine what the volumes that are going through this year, but to delay the whole system for a year would be very difficult.

In response to the Member’s question, the actual use of the capital funding would be to install a traffic counting and classification system on the bridge, to install video monitoring equipment of traffic on the bridge, to install communication equipment for real-time access to traffic counting and video equipment on the bridge, to install a turnout, a self-serve kiosk on the south approach to the bridge to allow for the toll payment, to install a boundary reading equipment on the bridge, to develop software for tracking the traffic counts and toll collection.

Mr. Chairman, there are a number of things that need to be done. I guess if we deferred it for a year in our capital process, we would probably have to come back in the form of a special warrant or something to allow us to construct this portion of toll collection that would allow us to start whenever the bridge is ready. Thank you.

I thank the Minister for that. Just a couple of things. I am just wondering when the $400,000 was approved initially for the toll system, because I maybe was out of the House that day or I was somewhere else, but I don’t remember us approving $400,000 for the toll booth on the Deh Cho Bridge. Maybe just a comment on that. Maybe the Minister could just refresh my memory as to why this Deh Cho Bridge toll system wasn’t included in the initial concession agreement and whether or not we can renegotiate that concession agreement to include this price that is going to be borne on the taxpayer here in the Northwest Territories. There is the toll collection, the toll booth. Why can’t it be included in the concession agreement? Why can’t we open up that concession agreement to include it like it should have been in the first place? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

First question, I guess the $400,000 that was approved was approved last year in the budget. The agreement to supply this was in the concession agreement. I think it would be very difficult to go back and open it up at this point.

Maybe just a comment from the Minister on why this wasn’t included in the original concession agreement. I think the residents in the Northwest Territories are going to be asking questions about why this wasn’t included in the concession agreement and why it appears in the capital plan and why we are going to be spending $1 million on the toll bridge operating system when, for all intents and purposes, it should have been included in the concession agreement. I am not sure who didn’t negotiate that in, but that is a big oversight, in my mind. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, it was always understood and it was in the agreement that we would be providing this portion of the toll collection. As to why it wasn’t, I wasn’t actually at the negotiating table, so I couldn’t tell. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Neudorf.

Speaker: MR. NEUDORF

This was and is included in the concession agreement. It has been an agreed and negotiated item between the Deh Cho Bridge Corporation and ourselves that the GNWT would be responsible to count traffic on the bridge and then responsible to collect the toll. There are a couple of reasons there. First, it was felt that the Bridge Corporation couldn’t take on that risk themselves. It was more appropriate for the GNWT to take on that risk so it helped the project be more financeable with the people that are providing the money to the project. It fit into DOT’s operation. It would be easier for us to incorporate it with the existing infrastructure, the existing personnel that DOT has. One of the things that we are working on is a call centre for permits. It has been operational for several months now and it seems to be working quite well. We do think that we will be able -- the plan is anyway -- to allow them to issue tolls or the permit to cross the Deh Cho Bridge. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Neudorf. Mr. Ramsay.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess I just don’t agree with the rationale for not including it in the concession agreement. I guess I’ve gone on record as saying that before and I’ll say it again today. It’s happened in the past, so we need to move on anyway.

I want to ask, on an annual basis, what is it going to cost the government to operate the toll system. The Minister talks about a call centre. What’s it going to cost us on an annual basis to operate this toll system? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Speaker: MR. NEUDORF

Thank you, Mr. Chair. As part of the negotiations on the concession agreement, we had reserved some funding to collect and administer the toll and count traffic. So we had a portion of the savings from the operation of the ferry and the construction of the ice bridge remains in DOT and will be used to do our part of collecting and administering the toll. The exact cost we don’t know yet, but as we finalize the system, as we work on these various aspects here, we will finalize that and will bring forward the required authorizations. We do think that we have enough money in what’s in the budget now, what we’ve reserved as part of the agreement, to facilitate that. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Neudorf. Mr. Yakeleya.

Norman Yakeleya

Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, the issue here in terms of the Deh Cho Bridge toll system, can this toll system be designed by a private company other than the GNWT? Is that the way this is being looked at? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Neudorf.

Speaker: MR. NEUDORF

Thank you, Mr. Chair. We have previously engaged some private sector help to help us move this on. We’ve got that preliminary information. We’re going to bring it into the DOT NWT context and, yes, we will need some more private expertise to help us as we finalize the design and as we look to implementation.

Norman Yakeleya

Sahtu

Thank you, Mr. Chair. So, Mr. Chair, from what I’m hearing, the toll system design will be done outside of the GNWT where a private company would design the system and work in conjunction with the Department of Transportation to set up this toll for the Deh Cho Bridge? This is what they’re budgeting for in terms of this work?

Speaker: MR. NEUDORF

Yes, that’s essentially correct. As I mentioned, we’ve already got some preliminary design work done. We have talked about that with working with...(inaudible)...and the Bridge Corporation to make sure that it’s doable, fits into our own system. So we have a general plan moving forward. As we do that, we will need to engage some additional expertise just to finalize, to get all the technical details together for that particular project. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Neudorf. We’re on page 9-14, Transportation, activity summary, road licensing and safety, infrastructure investment summary, total infrastructure investment summary, $1.210 million.

Speaker: SOME HON. MEMBERS

Agreed.

That concludes that page. Let’s move back to page 9-2, Department of Transportation, department summary, infrastructure investment summary, total infrastructure investment summary, $82.939 million.

Speaker: SOME HON. MEMBERS

Agreed.

Does committee agree that this concludes the review of the Department of Transportation under the capital estimates?

Speaker: SOME HON. MEMBERS

Agreed.

What is the wish of the committee? Mrs. Groenewegen.

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River South

Mr. Chairman, I move that we report progress.

---Carried

Report of Committee of the Whole

Speaker: MR. SPEAKER

Can I have the report of Committee of the Whole, please? Mr. Abernethy.