The honourable Member for Deh Cho, Mr. Michael McLeod.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It’s good to see all the visitors here in the gallery. The Housing Minister indicated I had a constituent here and I was trying to figure out who was Ms. Mary, but I finally figured out it was Rose Vandell from Fort Providence. I’d like to welcome her here. I also want to welcome a former colleague, Tony Whitford, who’s now not a one-man army but a one-man navy…
---Laughter
…and for sure he’s a force to be reckoned with. I’d like to welcome him here today. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. McLeod. The honourable Member for Nunakput, Mr. Jacobson.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’d like to welcome today Ms. Sadie Joss from Ulukhaktok, and Keith Dowling, the housing manager from Ulukhaktok. It’s not very often I have family in the House, too, so it’s good to see my housing manager from Tuk and also my cousin too. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Jacobson. The honourable Member for Hay River South, Mrs. Groenewegen.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’d like to recognize Savanna McKay-Larocque. I am happy to see she’s in the Social Work Program, following in the footsteps of two of her aunties who have been long-time social workers, Terry McPherson and Anne Gill in Hay River. It’s good to see Savanna here today. I also recognize Donna McLean, who is currently the manager of the Hay River Housing Authority but has worked for the Housing Authority for so long I actually can’t remember a time when she didn’t work for them. She is a very long-time employee of the Housing Authority. She was in charge before she was even the manager.
Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. The honourable Member for Weledeh, Mr. Bromley.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I, too, would like to welcome Captain Tony Whitford to the House and hope his home renovations are going well. I would also like to recognize Mr. Bruce Stewart, the instructor for the social programs staff -- he’s a constituent of Weledeh -- and also all of his students and the LHO representatives from everywhere. Mahsi.
Thank you, Mr. Bromley. The honourable Member for Nahendeh, Mr. Menicoche.
Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. It gives me great pleasure to recognize two Fort Liard residents in the gallery here today. First is Ms. Melanie Louie. Welcome to the gallery. I also recognize that she’s with the Fort Liard District Education Authority. As well, best wishes this year to Bianca Kotchea in the Social Work Program, who’s in the gallery today. Mahsi cho.
Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. The honourable Member for Kam Lake, Mr. Ramsay.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I, too, would like to welcome all the visitors in the gallery today. It’s always nice to have an audience with us. As well, I’d like to recognize a Page from the riding of Kam Lake that we have with us during this sitting of the House: Ms. Sarah Sibbeston. She’s the granddaughter of former Member Nick Sibbeston and a current senator. Welcome, Sarah. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. The honourable Member for Yellowknife Centre, Mr. Hawkins.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As I was getting ready for the House today, I was walking down and I saw a man dressed in black and at first I thought was that Johnny Cash, but it turned out to be our wonderful Mr. Whitford. Noticing that he was in black, I was wondering if the Clerks Table was afraid he was going to take them up on the Honourary Clerk of the Table role, but he’s dressed finely in his captain’s uniform.
Mr. Speaker, lastly, I’d like to recognize the Mildred Hall Pages who have been serving us quite well here for the last few days. Thank you for their work and I appreciate them here.
Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. The honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta, Mr. Krutko.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I, too, would like to recognize the housing managers and the people who work for our housing authorities in our communities: Elaine Blake, the housing manager from Tsiigehtchic. Welcome, Elaine. Roland Rogers, the manager from Aklavik. Welcome, Roland. Betty Firth, the manager from Fort McPherson, who’s been there for many moons. Eleanor Firth, who’s also with the authority. I’d like to welcome you and welcome all of you who I’ve basically had an opportunity to work with in the past. Mahsi cho.
Thank you, Mr. Krutko. If we’ve missed anyone in the gallery today, welcome to the House. I hope you’re enjoying the proceedings. It’s always nice to see a good audience in here.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In regard to my Member’s statement, I touched on the area of maximum unit rents that are charged across the Northwest Territories. It’s a similar issue we addressed in regard to our power rates in the Northwest Territories, in which our rates are different in every community and we have some 28 different power rates in the Northwest Territories and we’re now trying to remedy that situation and looking at three rate zones. I think that’s something that we should also consider when it comes to rental rates in our communities, especially if we could look at regional rates for the different regions from the Beaufort-Delta to the Sahtu to the North Slave, South Slave. I think we have to realize that there is definitely...(inaudible)...especially when individuals that we’re really talking about are the people paying the maximum rent, are the professions that usually come to our communities, need to be accommodated through social housing, and those are the people that definitely can see the difference.
I used the illustration of Fort McPherson and Tsiigehtchic, which is only half an hour apart, but in regard to the maximum rate in Tsiigehtchic, where basically they’re paying $3,700 and in Fort McPherson where it’s $2,500. So there’s a $1,200 difference in the maximum rate just between those two communities which are half an hour apart.
I’d like to ask the Minister is that something that his department can seriously consider in the line of the deferential differences when we talk about bringing down the cost of living in our communities, but more importantly, accommodating those people in our communities who are paying the highest rent and, more importantly, accommodating the region as a whole. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Krutko. The honourable Minister responsible for the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation, Mr. Robert McLeod.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. With some of the rates that are charged in the communities, obviously, a community that has more units has more units to spread out the cost of operating in that community and the smaller communities with less units, they have less units to spread out the costs. That’s why a lot of the costs are higher in those communities. However, at the NWT Housing Corporation we are considering looking at the idea of regional rents to spread it out throughout the regions. It is something that we are looking at. Thank you.
Mr. Speaker, I’d like to thank the Minister for that, because I think that is how we’re going to have to approach it. We have to do it region by region and try to look at the number of units in the different regions and look at an overall recovery cost across the board.
Like I say, we have some 2,200 units throughout the Northwest Territories and if we can break that down by region and try to have a rate that’s accommodating, I think, at the end of the goal, I’d like to ask, working forward, that we do have a territorial rate at some point going forward. I’d like to ask the Minister if that’s something that we can look forward to. Start off with the regional rates and eventually the goal is to have a territorial rate. Thank you.
Mr. Speaker, obviously, we’d have to look at the regional rates first and see how they work out. There will be, in some areas, where the rents in some of the communities will be higher to balance off the rental rate. I would suggest we look at the regional model first and see how that works and if there’s an appetite further down the road to look at a territorial-wide model, then that may be something for Housing in the future to consider. Thank you.
Mr. Speaker, again, I think that we also have to look at how we distribute the overall O and M dollars that are distributed to the different local authorities, but more importantly, look at the revenues that we do receive by way of the federal CMHC funding. Again, that’s another area that we have to look at. If we’re going to do this, we also have to look at the allocation of funds to the different LHOs so they are able to operate, but more importantly, look at the overall maintenance costs, the savings that we could basically consolidate…
Do you have a question, Mr. Krutko?
Mr. Speaker, I’d like to ask the Minister, can he also look at the overall operational costs that are being provided to the different LHOs and, if possible, bring them in line so that we are able to get a better return on our investment by those dollars? Thank you.
Mr. Speaker, it is part of our plan to look at the overall delivery of housing across the Northwest Territories and see how we could improve our product, see how we can best support our LHOs with the declining funding. They are facing some challenges in their communities. Also with the rental arrears, that’s also another challenge that they are facing. It is something that looking at the overall picture and doing an overall review are issues that we have to look at. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Final, short supplementary, Mr. Krutko.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Again, I believe we do have to look at this territorial issue. We do have the highest rate, which is Paulatuk, which is $4,600 for a five-bedroom unit, and the lowest rate is Fort Smith at $1,600 for a five-bedroom unit. I believe we do have to look at this as a territorial issue, similar to the approach we are taking with power rates. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Krutko. I don’t know if I heard a question there, but I will allow the Minister to respond. Mr. McLeod.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I did commit that we will, first of all, look at the overall regionalization of rent and further on down the road, if we feel the need arises, then we will look at a territorial-wide system. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. McLeod. The honourable Member for Weledeh, Mr. Bromley.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questions are also for the Minister of the NWT Housing Corporation. Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the Minister’s transfer of the responsibility for public housing rent collections from ECE back to the Housing Corporation. While a modest beginning, the Minister must now act to clean up the wreckage left behind by that failed and destructive policy.
There are now tens of thousands of dollars of debt for most of each family that is now in rental arrears, yet that debt is an illusion resulting from an income documentation process that was unrealistic, unworkable and, in many cases, humiliating. What aggressive action is the Minister taking to roll back that grossly inflated debt? Mahsi.
Thank you, Mr. Bromley. The honourable Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation, Mr. Robert McLeod.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. There was some concern that, during the transfer over to ECE, there was a lot of arrears accumulated because people had to go to different places, and in some of the smaller communities they had to fax off their income. This is a discussion that I had with the LHO managers yesterday. There is always an opportunity for tenants to come back to the LHO as they are all starting to come back now, because the LHOs are doing their assessment and verify their income for that particular time.
If they verify their income, then adjustments will be made. So we will see a lot of the arrears come down, but then the onus is on the tenants to verify their income and Housing will do what they can to make the adjustments and take some of the arrears off their books. Thank you.
Mr. Speaker, I understand the theory. The Minister has given us the theory but, as I said -- and perhaps the Minister didn’t hear in my statement earlier today -- I have constituents that have taken all of their pay stubs months ago into the Housing Corporation at least four months ago. They are sitting there waiting. They are paying $200 per month in rental arrears deductions, taken from the $800 left each month of disposable income. That is after rent and food for a family of seven. My constituent needs relief, Mr. Speaker. That is what we are talking about here. Can the Minister tell me if he has a rental arrears SWAT team in place now who will actually go after these unreal debts and ease this misery that this failed policy has caused? Thank you.
Mr. Speaker, we don’t have a SWAT team in place. The Member said that this has been going on for four months now. Today is actually the first that I have heard of it. If I had some communication with the Member, I may have been able to follow up on it and make sure that the tenants in his riding don’t have to wait so long for an answer.
I make a commitment to the Member. If we can discuss this afterwards, I will forward the information on to the proper people and see if we can have this dealt with as quickly as possible. Thank you.
Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the comments from the Minister. Mr. Speaker, I am profiling one example here. I am looking for a systemic response. I am sure the Minister understands that I appreciate his offer to help this family.
The situation of rental arrears is obviously urgent and stressful for both individuals and for the local housing offices. Each housing office’s total rental arrears have exploded, again because of this situation. The Housing Corporation reacts by reducing LHOs’ subsequent funding according to the amount of uncollected rents. As a result, one housing association has come close to declaring bankruptcy and handing public policy responsibility back to the department. Is the Minister ready to take over housing delivery from bankrupt associations all over the NWT? What is he doing now to prevent this? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, we will have no bankrupt authorities across the Northwest Territories. Ones that have faced some challenges because of the funding and the way it was flowing, we are working with them to try and get the situation resolved.
We have a stabilization fund that we are hoping to work with some of the authorities on to get them up and operating. We are quite confident that, with the transfer back to the LHO and a more, as far as the funding goes, if a more stable source of funding to the LHOs I think we are going to see huge improvements, but we don’t anticipate any authorities across the Northwest Territories going bankrupt. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. McLeod. A short, final supplementary, Mr. Bromley.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I was going to ask about the 30 percent of gross income being unrealistic and crushing, but I think I will hold off on that and just ask the Minister in respect to these rental arrears.
It is stressful. It is urgent. What sort of time frame are we talking about for these people that are living under these crushing debts of tens of thousands of dollars with very modest incomes? They need relief. When will it happen? Thank you.
Mr. Speaker, speaking territorial-wide, obviously we have heard of the situation with the one constituent which four months is an awful long time to wait or hear an answer on providing all the information that we have asked them to provide. Looking at it territorial-wide, obviously it is going to be a challenge.
With all the folks coming back to the LHOs now, getting their assessments done, there is a lot more of that face to face. They will have an opportunity to bring in some verification of income. That will be taken care of. The adjustments will be made. We will do our part as the Housing Corporation and LHOs. We will do our part in sharing that.
A lot of the arrears are written down, but we are asking tenants to do their part in verifying income. I think, with them coming into the LHOs, we are going to see a lot of the arrears.
We all realize that there was a $4 million increase in the amount of public housing arrears during the transition period. We are hoping to get the numbers stabilized and actually have a true arrears number. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. McLeod. The honourable Member for Great Slave, Mr. Abernethy.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questions are for the Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation as well.
I talked in my Member’s statement about flexibility of programs. The lack of flexibility is, I think, a problem across the government as a whole, not just the Housing Corporation. But there are certainly certain areas within the Housing Corporation where the programming lacks flexibility.
I highlighted in my Member’s statement one example where the programs are set up in such a way that it doesn’t encourage tenants to go back to work or take advantage of short-term employment opportunities or even, in some cases, longer term employment opportunities, because they feel that they get penalized almost immediately. As soon as they start collecting money, the rents pop up to maximum rents, or lowered, depending on the amount of money they are bringing in. Regardless, often it is better for them to not work and maintain a stable life than to work and have to get hit with so much financial expense immediately.
Has the Housing Corporation done any research into the program, especially this particular program, about rent collections to ensure that they have some flexibility that will allow them to assess each situation on its own merit and work with the clients that have arrears, that don’t have arrears, so that they can maximize work opportunities and not fall behind but get ahead for a change? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Thank you, Mr. Abernethy. The honourable Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation, Mr. McLeod.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is an argument that we’ve heard a lot of across the Northwest Territories and all my visits to the communities saying that the rent is a disincentive to work. We hear stories where folks have been paying $32 a month, they get a seasonal job, their rents increase for the time they’re working and that is a policy that the LHOs are following. I’ve had some discussions with senior officials, but we have to understand, though, that for the amount of time they’re not working and they’re paying $32 a month, we’re subsidizing them a huge amount and during the time that their working is their opportunity to pay back some of the subsidy that they’ve received. Because once they lose their seasonal job, they’ll be down to $32 a month again, and again Housing will be subsidizing them. So it is an argument that we’ve heard a lot of across the Northwest Territories and one that we recognize is a bit of a challenge. Obviously, hearing it so many times, it’s one that we have to look at quite seriously. Thank you.
I hear the Minister and I understand what the Minister is saying, but at the same time individuals who aren’t receiving subsidies, their salaries may change over the year, there may be peak months, there may be depressed months, bills may change, but when I have a month where I happen to make some extra money, I get to put that money where I want. I get to put it towards debts if I choose or I get to buy myself a new guitar if I choose. Whereas these individuals -- and I’m not talking necessarily seasonal, I’m talking really short-term employment opportunities -- when these individuals have an opportunity to get a little bit of money, they can’t get ahead because we take it from them and put it towards their rent right away. I fully understand, fully understand the importance of collecting from people, but it’s important that we give these people an opportunity as well.
So can I get the Minister to commit to researching this situation, to investigating this situation and come to us with alternatives? It may not be the same for everybody. It needs to be flexible. So will the Minister do that for us? Thank you.
