I guess I heard the Minister say that we will do that. Is there a timeline on this? I’ve heard this for quite a while. I would have thought that if the Housing Corporation was going to do it, it would have been something they would have considered and have started already. When might we be able to see these contracts split into two parts?
With this budget and information that we’re putting before you, a lot of these ones, when the construction comes out or the tenders come out this next building season, which is this summer, you’ll see a lot of them where it’s just labour only.
Next on the list I have Mr. Jacobson.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Overall I like what I see for the three communities of Paulatuk, Tuktoyaktuk and Ulukhaktok. But I’d like to ask the Minister what his plans are for Sachs Harbour in regard to getting some new units put into the community.
Mr. McLeod.
I have had discussions with the officials about the possibility of allocating a unit to Sachs Harbour. We’ll continue to have those discussions. If we find that we’re able to do it, then we’ll see what we can do about getting a unit into Sachs Harbour this coming building season.
Just in regard to that, I see on the capital plan that we have for the upcoming season, that you have some communities with five duplexes being built. Sorry, six duplexes being built. With the community of Sachs Harbour, the assessment that was done to the community I think that was not accurate. We have young families growing up needing places to stay and I think this unit, if we could get a four-plex into the community sooner rather than later, what are the chances of getting a four-plex put on this year’s business plan?
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We realize the demographics are changing and we’re going to have to, we say we’re going to use the Community Housing Needs Survey as a basis for allocating infrastructure and this is something we’re going to have to look at.
I did commit to the Member, I said one unit. The Member was referring to one four-plex unit and I meant one unit. Give an inch, take a mile. Obviously it’s something that we’re going to have to look at.
We have the information before you. There are reasons that other communities got the number of units they did. The one community there was serious structural problems that may have been quite dangerous to the people that are living there. It was determined that these come down and the duplexes go up in their place, because we are going to more of a multi-unit type facility.
As far as getting it onto this budget, we’ve allocated all that we have right now. If there are opportunities to make some adjustments, we’d have to have a look at that.
Myself, I looked through the proposed acquisition plan. There’s nothing there for Sachs Harbour. That’s why I’m asking if we can get something put into the acquisition plan for the community. Not only that, there’s a HELP unit retrofit being done next year. I think something has to be done this year because the unit is needed in the community.
Just going back last year on the program for the professional housing unit, say for instance the community corp and any of the communities that wanted to take on professional housing for the people coming in, nurses, teachers, for a unit like that, is that program still available to those outlying communities?
I’m sorry; if I could ask the Member to repeat his question. I think it was something to do with staff housing, housing for staff in the communities and if there’s opportunity for the local communities to take advantage of these. If he could just repeat that, I’d appreciate it.
Thank you, Mr. McLeod. Mr. Jacobson, if we could please get you to restate your question.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The question is in regard to professional people coming into the community, doctors, nurses, teachers, and stuff, taking units away from the community. The four-plex that I’m asking for in the community for professional housing, is that program still available for professional housing to provide for outlying people coming to the communities for work?
There’s always an opportunity for the community to approach the corporation and try to secure some kind of program to put a four-plex into the community. There are loan guarantees that the corporation has used in the past. We’ve got a $25,000-a-door incentive that we offer to communities that try to provide housing for staff. So the opportunities are there. We’re always willing to sit and listen to what the communities propose.
I’m up to two four-plexes now in the community of Sachs Harbour. It’s good.
Yes, but you’re paying for one.
I know. We are going to pay for one. But anyways. The one four-plex that I’m asking for in the community for the young families growing up in the community, is it possible to get that into the community this year for this summer’s construction?
No. Then he’ll say he’s got three four-plexes. No, Mr. Chairman, I said our budget’s been allocated. Our infrastructure’s been allocated. If there’s opportunity, if something changes and there’s an opportunity to possibly be looking at working with Mr. Jacobson to get a unit into his particular community, then that is what I will commit to do.
Could I ask the Minister if it’s possible to change the HELP unit to a four-plex? Because that HELP unit is not helping.
This is not actually a HELP unit that’s being built there. It’s a retrofit to an existing HELP unit.
I look at all the business acquisitions that we have going on for some of the communities. I think again last year I had a commitment for Sachs Harbour in getting a unit in there. I think that obviously it’s not going to happen. I really want to work with the Minister to try to get two units in there, one for professional housing and one for the community, so we’re not so tied up for the young families and professionals that are trying to come into the community to provide a service for our people. I think if it’s possible with the Minister… I’m going to invite the Minister into the community to meet with the local representatives to try to get these units on the go. Try to work together to get the two units into the community if possible and we just have to take one away from somewhere. It looks like Yellowknife has lots and other communities have lots.
---Interjection
We need something in Sachs Harbour. We have been bypassed long enough. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I would be more willing to accept the Member’s invitation to visit his community and it gives me an opportunity to listen to their concerns and see what our product is on the ground there.
Going back to the Member’s wish for a four-plex, he was talking about the community taking the initiative and that is something that I have committed to the Member, that as a corporation we are always willing to listen to the communities and some of the initiatives that they come up with and we will do what we can to work with them, realizing that some of the units that they want to put on the ground, we are there to assist whenever possible. Thank you.
I just want to clarify what the Minister just said. The community of Sachs Harbour, the community corporation is looking for the backing for the four-plex that was offered last year to go to the bank to build the four-plex for professionals, and what I am asking for is for the NWT Housing Corporation to give me a four-plex for the community. That is what I am asking for. They are two different things and the community is only asking for the professional housing, the community corporation. I just wanted that clarified. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
As far as the community’s need for a four-plex, I would have to have a discussion with Mr. Jacobson. I think I am going off on a rabbit trail here and maybe I got lost somewhere, but as far as his desire for a four-plex for his community as public housing, I have told the Member that if there is an opportunity there or if some changes happen or if there are things that change, and if we feel that we are able to assist the Member in securing a unit for his community, then that is something that we would be willing to entertain. Thank you.
Thank you Minister McLeod. The next on my list is Mr. Krutko.
Thank you Mr. Chairman. One of the issues that has come forward is in regards to the last Needs Surveys that has been done compared to the last one done previous was 2004. I think one thing that we see is there is still a question about housing core need. Basically the lifecycle of a lot of our housing units, I think that we have to face the reality that at some point in time the housing units that we have basically have used their lifecycle. There is no way that you can repair them and you can’t replace them. I think that is one of the reasons we are barely keeping our heads above water to really meet the core needs that we are running into.
I think one of the things that we have to look at is what do we do to deal with the old northern rentals, look at what we are doing with the Weber houses. Those units are basically 35 years old. I think that we have to and the communities have to realize that we are not meeting the needs.
Looking at the duplexes, stuff like that, it does accommodate, but I think another area that we can really make a difference in our communities where we still have these high core needs is to look at seniors housing. I don’t see that in here. We are talking more in regards to public housing, but I think there is a need for seniors multiplexes in communities. Looking at our aging population, I will use Fort McPherson where there are 122 elders over the age of 60 and we have some 86 elders over the age of 70. I think we have to be realistic to the aging demographics in our communities and the basic lifecycle for housing needs and I think that is one area that I see that we can really help communities. We have challenges regardless whether it’s singles housing, family housing units and or seniors.
I think we hear a lot of issues around here about seniors staying in public housing by themselves and that that house could maybe be better used by a family. I know it is an issue between Housing and the Department of Health and Social Services, but I think that is something that we should really be looking at, is the infrastructure for seniors housing in our communities.
I know I have raised this in the House before about disabled housing, but again that could also be to accommodate our seniors, because as you age, you are fragile and eventually there are situations where you will find yourself in that category of need by way of your disability. I think that is something that we have to look at, so I would like to just ask the Minister is that something that is contemplated in the housing reviews going forward. When we build a unit in a community, can we look at the possibility of designing a unit or four-plex specifically designed for seniors? We are going to spend the money anyway, so can we design the units to specifically meet the needs of certain classes of our population in our communities, especially for seniors in social housing, especially for a lot of our isolated communities and communities that we do need that accommodation in our communities and keep the elders in our home communities as long as we can? Thank you.
Thank you Mr. Krutko. Minister McLeod.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just in regards to the Members’ first concern with the old northern territorials, and he is correct, we try and take, as we put new public housing units into the system, some of the older ones out, because a lot of them are beyond economic repair. Those are the ones that we would take out first. The Weber units, I think are almost the next in line for that. We still find that the Weber units, a lot of them have gone through a retrofit probably within the last 10 years, so there is still some life left in those.
The northern territorials are basically all out of the inventory now, so as we bring new units in, we take some of the older ones out, ones that we just can’t fix anymore and have been repaired maybe four or five times. That is something that we are looking at.
As far as looking at the different demographics and designing our homes we have, in some communities, seniors units in some of the communities and so we are able to do our part in keeping the seniors in the communities, especially those that are fairly independent. The design is part of what we are incorporating into our new public housing and homeownership design. You see with some the LHOs before the corporation started designing a lot of these units to accommodate those that are disabled and seniors. Some of the LHOs would designate some of their own units as seniors or disabled units and they do the necessary retrofit, so that is one that we recognize is getting to be... The seniors especially, we just had, I think, a new seniors five-plex open in one of the Sahtu communities. So it is one that we recognize that we need to go to more of a multi-type unit. We have a lot of seniors still staying in some of the older public housing but you are kind of reluctant to move some of them out because they have been in there for basically the last 40 to 45 years and they are given an option if they maybe want to take a smaller unit, but we figure at this point it would do them more harm than good to move them out of there. So we try and recognize the fact that they have become quite attached to some of the units that they are in. But as far as going forward and into our new designs, this is something that we are trying to incorporate and all future design will be able to accommodate seniors and those with disabilities. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Like my colleague for Nunakput, in regards to Sachs Harbour, I just noted, going through the lists, Tsiigehtchic is not on there. I am just wondering have we forgotten Tsiigehtchic or is it for some reason excluded. I would just like to know what are the future plans for Tsiigehtchic, because I noted going through 2011-2012 and 2013-2014, Tsiigehtchic is not listed so I don’t know if it is a mistake or if they deleted Tsiigehtchic out of our housing stock altogether. What is the status of Tsiigehtchic.
The money that Tsiigehtchic’s getting is mostly on the O and M side, but the Member raises a fairly good point going into future years. That’s something that I’ll commit to the Member that I will take up with my officials and see, well, first of all, about the need in Tsiigehtchic and… But I will commit to the Member that I will take it up with the officials and have a discussion with them, because we can’t be going three or four years into the future and not see an investment of any kind in any of our communities. I’ll have that discussion with the officials. Thank you.
In regard to the other aspects, I think that as the Housing Corporation who really does benefit communities economically and socially and by job opportunities and training opportunities for a lot of people, and more importantly, trying to get our young people into the apprenticeships, this is one department that really can achieve results in communities, especially when we talk about the economics and social conditions of our communities, high unemployment and economic opportunities. I think that one of the ways that we should be looking at is... I know the whole area of breaking down contracts and trying to get them to a stage where we contract the different segments regardless if it’s site development work, put that out as a separate contract. Foundation work such as pilings, that could be a separate contract, and also even to a point where we actually try to attract local businesses to get into the different segments regardless if it’s dry walling or painting or plumbing or electricians. I think that is an area where we can really develop the communities’ social and economic potential, especially for young individuals who want to get into the trades, want to stay in their local home communities and look at that as a business opportunity.
I think that’s something that we have to be cognizant of, especially where we’re starting to see higher and higher statistics in our communities in excess of 40 percent. To me, that is telling us something when you have 45 percent unemployment in the community where you have a population of 800 people. That should be sending a message out.
I’d just like to know if that’s something that can be considered and contemplated in regard to the contracting practices and procedures and even looking at the contracting guidelines that we have, if there are ways that we can try to sustain and maintain as many of those capital investment dollars in our local communities.
I have committed and I mentioned earlier that we are planning, in the coming construction season, going out with as many labour-only contracts as possible, especially in some of the smaller communities. When there’s a lot that needs to be developed, there are a lot of contractors within the communities themselves that are able to undertake this work.
One thing that I would be very wary of doing is breaking down the contracts too much. I mean, there’s always going to be a need for a general contractor and then he gets his subcontractors. In most cases, if he’s from a small community he’ll use the same people. There’s obviously some parts of it where he’ll have to go outside the community, but if we started breaking it down into too many different segments of a contract, I think we’re going to find that the work is not going to be done as quickly as it should. So with the general contractor, he’ll be able to crack the whip and make sure that everything that is planned and going on for when it’s supposed to be. But that is our intent, is to put out and let contracts and have some of them as just labour-only contracts where it’s appropriate. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister McLeod. I have no more Members on my list. Are there any questions? We’re on page 3-12, which is an information item. Programs and district operations, infrastructure investment summary, total infrastructure investment summary, $16.420 million.
Agreed.
We’ve concluded the detail so we’ll go back to the first page, which is page 3-10. The NWT Housing Corporation, information item, infrastructure investment summary, total infrastructure investment summary, $16.420 million.
Agreed.
Does committee agree that that concludes our consideration of the NWT Housing Corporation?
Agreed.
Does committee agree that that concludes our consideration of Table Document 66-16(5)?
Agreed.
Mr. Ramsay.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move that consideration of Tabled Document 66-16(5), Northwest Territories Capital Estimates 2011-2012, be now concluded, and that Tabled Document 66-16(5) be reported and recommended as ready for further consideration in formal session through the form of an appropriation bill. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. A motion is on the floor. The motion is being distributed. Actually, before we take that next step, I’d like to thank the Minister and his staff for talking to us today. Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort the witnesses out.
A motion is on the floor. The motion has been distributed. The motion is in order. To the motion.
Question.
Question has been called.
---Carried
Now recognizing the clock, I will now rise and report progress.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Your committee has been considering Tabled Document 66-16(5), Northwest Territories Capital Estimates 2011-2012, and would like to report progress with one motion being adopted, and that consideration of Tabled Document 66-16(5) is concluded and that the House concur with those estimates and that an appropriation bill to be based thereon be introduced without delay. And, Mr. Speaker, I move that the report of Committee of the Whole be concurred with.
Thank you, Mr. Abernethy. A motion is on the floor. Do we have a seconder? The honourable Member for Inuvik Twin Lakes, Mr. Robert McLeod.
---Carried
