Thank you, Madam Chair. I will take it as a comment. I didn't hear a real question. I do appreciate that we're on the same track. We just talk different, though.
I just want to remind that we are only doing one round of questions per priorities, so, Members, I encourage you to use short preambles for your questions, and I encourage the Premier to respond completely but briefly. Thank you. I will move on to the Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I am just looking at the transition of 100 individuals and/or families to home ownership. I think it's so important, this item. I think that, if people have ownership in their homes, they'll take pride in it. They'll take care of it. I'm looking here at how. When we go through this exercise, the how is the most important thing, how we get there. I'm looking at the lease-to-own policy developed and promoted. I would like to ask the Premier: if this policy is developed and promoted, how is land tenure part of this? Is it included in here? Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member. Madam Premier. Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation.
Thank you for your comment. The land tenure issue and the home ownership issue are two different departments. Department of Lands would be dealing with the land tenure, and housing would be dealing with the home ownership program. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Madam Premier.
Thank you, Madam Chair. We will have to look into it, but I do believe that public-housing units are on their own property, so the land tenure wouldn't be an issue. It would go with them. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Madam Premier. Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.
I am hearing a couple of different accounts here. I just want to make sure I get this straight in my head. Do I need to direct this question to the Minister of Lands? I didn't hear that.
Madam Premier.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I had to get clarification. It has been a couple of years since I was the housing Minister. Housing owns their own property. The housing units that would be transferred to home ownership, the land tenure would go with those homes. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Madam Premier. Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I think I am good here. The Premier answered my question, and I'm satisfied with the answer. Mahsi cho.
We'll move to the Member for Yellowknife Centre.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Like the Premier, my career immediately prior to coming into the Assembly was with housing, a non-profit housing agency, and I just want to talk about the numbers for a second. The first is that a significant portion of the housing stock, something like 30 percent, is 40 years old or older. That means that, out of those 2,400 houses, about 800 of them are going to be finished their useful life within the next 10 years. That's 800 houses. There are 900 people on the waiting list for housing across the NWT; about a third of them are in Yellowknife. Some of those people are on the waiting list because income assistance demands that they be there, but some of those people on those waiting lists need housing. They are not income-assistance recipients; they are low-income earners, or there are no other housing alternatives in their communities.
The next thing I want to say is that the vast majority of high-income earners in public housing are in Yellowknife, and there are no ownership options in Yellowknife. I am really struggling with understanding how 100 houses is going to make a dent in the age of the homes, the number of people on the waiting lists, and the homeownership options that are available in Yellowknife, so I would be very interested to hear from the Premier on these points. Thank you.
Thank you, Member for Yellowknife Centre. Madam Premier.
There are homeownership opportunities in Yellowknife, our large capital. The homeless assistance program, I can't remember the acronym for it, does help people try to get into their own homes. I'm trying to think if it was income support; I've had too many portfolios, now. Housing does the housing supplement; the rent supplement program is with housing. So the rent supplement program is with the Housing Corporation.
I was in social work for over 20 years and working in Yellowknife with homeless people, and I never even knew about the program, so I think that what we've done wrong, and, again, the government, I've said that for the last four years, the worst thing about the government is we're bad communicators. We're just so busy trying to keep on top of the water that we forget to get things communicated. I think that the rent supplement program needs to be promoted more, out there more, because that helps the majority of middle-income and lower-income families, and then the rent for income support needs to be utilized more for low-income families. Again, the federal government is supposed to be coming with another initiative that they will be providing housing support. Hopefully, that will come through fairly soon, and, if not, then we have an obligation to step up.
So there are housing needs in Yellowknife. There are huge housing needs in Yellowknife. We have to look at expanding our rent supplement, but we also have housing needs in every single small community, and we can't forget the small communities. Because Yellowknife has 100 wait list; the small community, one community might only have 10 people on a waiting list, but those 10 people on the wait list might all be living in one home, and so that is the balance that we always have to meet. We will never have enough to do everything in four years, but we have to start chipping away. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Madam Premier. Member for Yellowknife Centre.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Premier, I am never going to apologize for looking at the needs of Yellowknife residents. The waiting list in Yellowknife is 350 families or individuals; it's even harder to house individuals. I am not saying that housing isn't important in other places; I'm saying housing is important in Yellowknife. Where I live and work in Yellowknife Centre, there is also the largest group of people who are in public housing, and they are not necessarily looking for a rent supplement program. If they are high-income earners, they may be looking at purchasing homes, and it's news to me that public housing will facilitate the purchase of market housing in Yellowknife, the purchase of it; not the rental of it, but the purchase of it. High-income earners prefer purchasing because they are able to acquire an asset, as you did in your own life story. That makes more sense for them in the long run, so, as we often say in this room, one size doesn't fit all. The circumstances in Yellowknife are unique, and they need to be part of this solution of providing more housing, so I want you to consider those needs, as well.
I also want to reiterate the point that my friend from Frame Lake said. I know that 2,400 units has been the ceiling for a long time, but it doesn't make sense for it to be the ceiling indefinitely. The demand is simply too great. We're putting out money for health, we're putting out money for education, we're putting out money for employment, but, if someone doesn't have anywhere to live, then are we really using that money wisely? This is really a place, as my friend from Kam Lake said, for some real innovation, some really out-of-the-box thinking about these big numbers that are about need, about waiting lists, about the age of the existing stock, and coming up with ways to try to make a bigger dent, if at all possible, than 100. I mean, we have to start somewhere. I recognize that, but 100 units with 900 people on the waiting list, you can do the math and see that that's just not enough. That's me rambling on, and I don't have a question. Thank you.
Thank you, Member for Yellowknife Centre. Would Madam Premier like to respond?
Very quickly, I'm going to try. Absolutely right, we do have to get more. I mean, and there is work. We have to stop thinking that this is only GNWT. If we settle the self-governments, we have self-governments that are wanting to draw down things, so, you know, we have to work with our Indigenous governments and our federal government. We've already gone to Ottawa. We're trying to promote the need for our housing, so it isn't something that we're just looking at as: this is it. I would like to see more than this. I'm trying to be realistic. If, in two years, when we look at the mandate -- not the Ministers; we're not pulling Ministers out. That's not what we agreed to do. We agreed to look at the mandate and see if it's doable. It would be interesting to see where we are and see if we could actually increase it for the last two years. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Madam Premier. Member for Hay River South.
Thank you, Madam Chair. With respect to if we decide to, I guess, sell off houses in a community, will there be a house there to replace that one? Will it stay in that community? Thank you.
Thank you, Member for Hay River South. Minister responsible for the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation.
Thank you for your comment. Going forward, I just want it to be really clear that there seems to be some confusion over the 100 houses that we are to be building during the next four years. The Housing Corporation is really emphasizing Indigenous partnership and hopefully wanting to receive federal funding this year. Looking at the approach going forward, right now, we're looking at our stock that is, currently, we're going to offset them and we're going to turn them over. Our main focus is to enter into a partnership with Indigenous groups, and eventually they would be able to, if we had five units in Hay River, those five units, my first contact would be with Indigenous groups, meeting with them and working in assistance with them, that they would be wanting to take over these units in partnership. Also, at a federal level, the Indigenous groups have the access to a co-investment fund that is offered through the federal government, so for them to come and approach us and for us to achieve the 100 units throughout the Northwest Territories, it's a partnership that I'm wanting to work with. If we were to guide and help and support the Indigenous groups, the stakeholders throughout the Northwest Territories, to meet us halfway with the funding that already exists there, then we are able to multiply on those units. One hundred units doesn't seem very much for the next four years, but 100 units is what we have to work with, and I look at that going forward and wanting to have people enter into homeownership is the main goal of the Housing Corporation and not setting them up for failure, to honestly give them that ownership that these are their homes, and then to try to eliminate and work with that waiting list that we have.
When we're constructing in the communities, if we're taking five units out of Hay River, I want five units back there, working towards that and really looking at we do have social impacts of poverty line, and the list goes on. That really contributes to our problem with the shortage of housing in the Northwest Territories. I hope that answers your question, and I am absolutely passionate about the portfolio, as well. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister responsible for Housing. Member for Hay River South.
Thank you, Madam Chair. It's hard to believe that she's that excited about it. When we talk about 100 units, is there a dollar value to those units? Like, I look at it and I think, well, 100 units, but is it 100 houses that have 10 bedrooms to them, or is it just a dollar value? I expect that we could have more than 100 units. With the way people's lives are changing nowadays, we don't need bigger units anymore, and so I'm expecting that the Housing Corporation will look at that.
The other thing, too, is we talk about the 100 units, but there is also the opportunity for developers in the communities to develop properties and house some of the people who require it, as well. So I guess, when I think of 100, I think that, you know, we could hit 200. It just depends how we do it, and it depends on how much money we have to play with. The partnerships are great. We have to do that; and, with Indigenous groups, that's a no-brainer; we have to have them on-side, but there are other avenues, as well. I'm not sure if there's a question there or not, but anyway, thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member for Hay River South. Madam Premier, would you like to respond?
She's as passionate as I was in the last Assembly.
Minister responsible for NWT Housing Corporation.
Thank you, Madam Chair. The 100 units that we're forecasting, I want to do 24 units going forward. I know that looking at can we exceed that amount; 100 units is what is forecasted and, looking at the federal funding that is available to Indigenous groups and to people across Canada who are able to access, if we were to have $1 million, and we're over that $1 million, we're only going to build two duplexes; but, if we have $1 million and we have Indigenous group stakeholders that have entered into the co-investment fund and a $500,000 duplex and the Housing Corporation is only putting up $100,000, then that gives me the incentive that we have enough money to go across the Northwest Territories. If I can work in partnership with the Indigenous groups and with the stakeholders throughout the Northwest Territories, I would like to stretch that money as far as we can.
I think the other thing is that, going forward and looking at the community plans that we're developing, you did have some comments on what style of houses and what units are we constructing, those community plans are going to give that information to the Housing Corporation. Based on each of the communities, I want the communities to tell the Housing Corporation: this is what we need. We could go in and we could build single units, three-bedroom units, but is it adequate for that community, depending on what it is that they want and what they want to see going forward?
The other thing is that, a lot of people who have their current units right now, they are looking at homeownership and repair; homeownership, home repair, seniors aging in place. We do have programs that support that. So, going forward, depending on what the region, what the communities want, would be the style of units that are going to be going into each of the communities in each of the regions.
The other thing I really want to emphasize is I want to tie it in with education and training, as well. These units are going to be stick-built. I want them to create employment in the communities, and, going forward and looking at that initiative, it gives a lot of independence and a lot of hope for our community members and throughout the Northwest Territories. Also looking at homeownership is the ultimate goal for the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation. I would like to see people own their own homes, access our programs. Advertisement is key, as well, as I want people to know the types of programs that we have, because I feel that they need to reach the needs of the Northwest Territories.
The programs are already existing. I see that they are adequate. Coming from a smaller community, I get it; I see it. I know what it's like to be living in a home where there is no plumbing, there's no furnace, and whatever, but going forward I also know what it's like to become a homeowner and the pride that you have and the skills, as well, of maintaining that home. So, going forward, the priority for the Housing Corporation is homeownership. I would like to emphasize that. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister responsible for the NWT Housing Corporation. I know you're passionate, but can you try and keep your answers shorter?
---Laughter
Would Madam Premier like to...? Okay, Member for Hay River South.
This one, you can just say yes or no. Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm kind of confused here, now. We're talking about 100 units. Is that 100 units based on developing and receiving funds through Indigenous groups, as well, or is that just 100 units based on GNWT dollars; just on GNWT dollars, yes or no?
Madam Premier.
Yes, it's GNWT only. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Madam Premier. Member for Thebacha.
I like the idea of the increased homeownership. I'd like to see the terms of reference that you're going to put out and if there is going to be a means test, you know, or is it going to be that you're just going to turn over the home to the individuals? Because, you know, I was thinking about this. Most of the people in housing, public housing, are Indigenous, and, as you know, Salt River did a program with the Government of the Northwest Territories, but there are a lot of other people. I want to make sure that we don't make it very difficult for the home ownership, the increase in home ownership. You have to make it so that they don't fail. Sure, there has to be a means test; sure, you have to make sure that they're able to pay for the utilities, and there are lots of people in that category.
I think that it's very important that the Indigenous governments are involved. In Fort Smith, it's Salt River and the Metis Nation, the Fort Smith Metis Nation. I think it's extremely important because it's mostly our own people who are in those houses, so they have to have input into how distribution takes place. I think that we could be very innovative and business-minded, like Rocky said. We could get more units built; like, if you have five designated for Fort Smith, or 10, we might be able to make it 20. You know, Fort Smith is always open to new ideas and to make sure that we get as much as we can.
The other thing I want to mention, though, is we also have to have support to develop the reserve. We have no developed lots on reserve. The water and sewer in the lift station is a must on the Salt River Reserve. The federal government is not taking ownership for this to happen. I'm sure that you had discussions with the Chief of Salt River, Mr. Poitras. I fully support and always will support the development of that reserve. It is all in place. Everything has been done. It is just a matter of them signing the papers, saying that they're going to go ahead with the development of the service lots, the 30-some lots on reserve and the lift station so that they can move forward. Salt River has the ability to move forward, and so does the Fort Smith Metis Nation. I have a lot of confidence in the Indigenous people of Fort Smith. If we all work together to make it happen and distribute equally, I fully support your initiative.
Madam Premier.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, there would be a means test, although I want to clarify. Sometimes means test limit. Low income people can't get into housing, so I am going to be watching that as well very closely because, if someone's making $87,000, I think in Yellowknife, you use 87,000, the philosophy is that they deserve to be in public housing. I never made $87,000 in Yellowknife when I was living in my $40,000 shack, so I need to make sure that, just because people are making less than that, that our government doesn't penalize them and say, you can't do it, because I think people can. We cannot set people up to fail, so the terms of reference have to be really good within that.
I think that it's important that we need to work with our Indigenous governments. Salt River, its former chief, was a great example of what we can do when actually the GNWT and Indigenous governments do work together to provide housing for people. As for the support to the reserves, it's something where we've talked to the federal Ministers already. We will be talking to the Prime Minister. It was just an introductory meeting, not as in-depth as I would have liked. As we move forward, it is something. It is not acceptable that we have two reserves in the Northwest Territories and that they are not getting the same services as the rest of the reserves in the south. I do not accept this, and I think that we will continue for this government to advocate that the reserves in the Northwest Territories get recognized by the federal government, and get the funding that comes with reserves in the South. In the meantime, I will not turn a blind eye to supporting of people on reserves. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Madam Premier. Member for Thebacha.
It's okay to talk, but I want to see it in writing. I think it's very important that it's written, a letter is written on behalf of the reserves, both reserves including Salt River, that the development of the reserve of the water and sewer in the lift station is supported at Salt River. Hay River has water and sewer on their reserve, but we don't. It's a new reserve, and that's part of the implementation of the reserve. There are no lots available for building houses. It's a very important part of their development, and I think that we have to ensure that happens. It's a great asset, not only for Salt River, but for the entire community of Fort Smith. Anything that happens within the community is good for everyone. I want to make sure that this happens. You can talk about it and we've done that. I want to see it in writing, that the Minister gets a letter saying that you support this, and carbon copy the Salt River Reserve and myself.
Thank you, Member for Thebacha. Madam Premier.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I will commit to providing a letter that I will share with both reserves. Give me a little bit of time. I want to meet with the reserves first to make sure that it's the letter that they want because we are talking about advocating. Once we've met with both reserves and we know what we're going to bring forward to the federal government, I will stand beside them in that battle, and then we will provide a copy, as long as the reserves, I'm being careful now, agree that we can open it up, and we will provide a letter. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Madam Premier. Member for Thebacha.
I have no other questions. Thank you.
Thank you. If there are no further questions on the increase number of affordable homes and reduce core housing needs? Seeing none, the committee will move to page 8. Settle and implement treaty, land, resources, and self-government agreements. A reminder, Members, we'll do one round and have ten minutes. Member for Thebacha.
The settle and implementation treaty, land, resources, and self-government agreements is extremely important for the development of the Northwest Territories. We all talk very loosely in our discussions around the table of ensuring that Indigenous rights are respected, Indigenous people are looked after. We have to sort of walk the talk.
I am very passionate about the subject. I am going to go back to the two outstanding. One implementation is the Salt River claim, the outstanding claim of the NWT Metis Nation within my area, and the Dehcho claim, the Akaitcho claim. I mean we could go on and on. I wonder if the will is really there to settle. I've often wondered if the people that are actually settling the claim from Indigenous Affairs, the negotiators are actually the ones that we should really be using. Sometimes, I wonder if they really understand what's on the table. I think that it's extremely important that we do not be barriers to settling these claims and these implementations so that our people could move forward with everybody else instead of waiting for social assistance or public housing and all these other things that we seem to be a burden to. I think that it's extremely important that we understand that the federal government also could be a big barrier.
Ever since devolution, the more I heard around the table when I was at the table with Indigenous governments is that the main barrier since the lands have been turned over in devolution, that we have been a big barrier. That's got to change. The mandate has got to be put forward in good faith. Meaningful negotiation has got to take place. The negotiators that go to the table have to understand where everybody's coming from and mediate through those claims in good faith. I don't see that happening. People are still coming to me, and I have chiefs phoning me all the time because I know them. I sat with them. I saw their struggles. I saw the way they tried to help their people and how they feel. When you settle these claims, it's going to be a benefit to that community and to the Northwest Territories, just like the way Salt River has done, even though we have no support for the implementation.
It is very dear to my heart because being there in leadership for 10 years, anything you do with the settlement of a claim has always benefited not only Salt River but all the community. Anything you develop supports the whole community. We don't have to depend on government all the time. You're more self-sufficient. I did wonder how you're going to be able to ensure that this actually happens.
Thank you, Member for Thebacha. Madam Premier.
Thank you, Madam Chair. That is why I didn't commit to settling every single one of them. They have been on the plate, some of them, for 30 years. We have committed to doing business differently. Like I said, I have talked to the Indigenous governments. I have met with a couple of them now. I have been saying the same thing I said in the House the other day. I have been telling them, "I don't see us as federal government, GNWT, and Indigenous governments. I see us as federal, GNWT, and Indigenous all working together at the table." I talked about meeting with them after because it has only been negotiators at the table. I feel that the Premier wasn't there enough. Every single bilateral that we are having now is going to have a time with the Premier and the chief alone to talk about negotiations, a more intense struggle.
I can't commit that it is going to work, but what I can say is that we did have one Indigenous government that was backing away from the GNWT and saying, "We are not working with you, period. We are only working with the federal government." Talked to them, and they are back at the table. That says if we had an Indigenous government that was saying, "We don't want anything to do with you," and now they are saying, "We are willing to come back," and that chief told me he said, "Because I worked with you when you were the housing Minister, and I trust you." I know it is not a lot to go on, but I think relationships are key when you are working. That is all I have to offer, the honesty and the relationship that I carry forward. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Madam Premier. Member for Thebacha.
