Thank you, Madam Chair. During my time here with the 19th Legislative Assembly, I've had the opportunity to get to know a lot of the Members who sit around this room, and, although I grew up in the North and felt I had a very good understanding of everything that happened in the North, I've learned that I learn something new every day from my colleagues here. So my question would be: how does the GNWT intend to work with people from the regions to decide what powers need to be devolved to the regions and how they're going to do that in a meaningful way? Thank you.
Thank you, Member for Kam Lake. Mr. Goldney.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I think the expectation is to begin with an inventory of where decision-making rests within our organization now, identify opportunities where it might be better placed in the regions and in communities, and have discussions with regional staff and community staff to verify some of that. We might learn through those discussions there are things that we've missed, so it's very much expected to be an ongoing conversation that starts with that departmental review of what the authorities look like now and leads to implementation of more authority in the communities through that type of engagement. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Goldney. Member for Kam Lake.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I see here that there is a spot for training provided to make sure that communities are well prepared to take on the decision-making authorities. Will there be ongoing check-ins and ongoing support to make sure that we can keep that decision-making authority within the communities and empower them to continue on that road? Thank you.
Madam Chair -- Madam Premier.
You can call me Madam Chair.
---Laughter
Thank you, Madam Chair. Absolutely, and, as to training, as well, training is only as good as the people who receive the training, so it shouldn't be something that is done one time and just left. It should be something that is ongoing. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Madam Premier. I will move on to the Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.
Mahsi cho, Madam Chair. It sounds like, earlier, you got another promotion there. I really like this mandate item, as well. I really got a good sense of it when we sat around our roundtable in October with all the regions. That was so powerful, just hearing them. What really surprised me was they were telling us that they had never met with us in that forum before. It blew me away. I think that needs to happen more, that collaboration. We need to work with each other. For too long, I think there was that division between the GNWT and the regions. I feel like the regions felt ignored. We are starting to bridge that now. That makes me very happy, and I think this is a good direction to go in. My question for the Premier is: I am looking here at the timeline summer 2021. It says, "How we will demonstrate progress," and there is a training program that will be developed. Can she just expand a little bit on what this training program is going to be like and just give us some high-level content? What is going to be in that training program?
Madam Premier.
Thank you, Madam Chair. The training right now doesn't have a blueprint. It will depend on the first item within it that talks about that we will be looking at where decision-making can do. Then we will be having to assess what training is needed. It is a bit early today to say what training will look like when we don't know what we are dealing with at this point. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Madam Premier. Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for that response, Madam Premier. With this departmental review, it says the winter of 2021. What steps are we going to expect to get this work done over the summer? What kind of work are we going to do between now and this timeline? Mahsi.
Thank you, Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh. Madam Premier.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I was a little bit confused on what timeline. It is actually this winter. We are already starting to get the departments to do the review. I am not sure if that was the answer to your question or if there was more you wanted. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Madam Premier. You are good? All right. I will move on to the Member for Hay River South.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I will just be brief here on this. In the regions, we do have some regional authority there right now. Some of it is good, but the problem is that it depends on who the person is who has that authority. A lot of times, it lacks fairness. We see that. I see it in my community, and I suspect others see it in their communities, as well. I think that, when we look at devolving some of this, we should come up with something and put something in place so that we can monitor that. One way to monitor is that people come to us as MLAs and complain, but there has got to be something, some training and some ownership, by the people making decisions. There has got to be a process that can be followed and that just provides fairness, is the big thing. Thank you.
Thank you, Member for Hay River South. Madam Premier.
I agree, Madam Chair. We need to have some kind of a way of monitoring it and evaluating it. On one hand, over the last four years, I have heard, "Train our people. Give our people the skills. Put them in our jobs." On the other hand, I hear, "You can't have my people in there because they are friends with this family and that family." We do have to make sure that there is a monitoring to make sure that biases do not persist, especially in the smaller regions where that is more of a liability. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Madam Premier. If there are any further questions on the increased regional decision making authority? Seeing none, committee will move on to page 11, "reduce the municipal funding gap." Questions? Member for Yellowknife North.
Thank you, Madam Chair. The municipal funding gap, it is not exactly a fixed target because it grows with inflation. Can I just confirm whether we are going to close the gap by $5 million, factoring in the fact that it is consistently growing so that this priority would actually cost something more than $5 million? Is that correct?
Thank you, Member for Yellowknife North. Madam Premier.
Thank you, Madam Chair. The expectation is that we will try to avoid grouping them in, that we will close it by $5 million, recognizing, I know, that we might get challenged that it is not enough money, et cetera. It is the best we can do with the resources we have. Tough decisions have to be made. The territorial government, if we did an assessment of what we are short, I think we would blow ourselves out of the water. I know that the communities always cry $40 million, and I feel it. I also feel our own debt. We have to be realistic within that. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Madam Premier. Member for Yellowknife North.
Sorry. I am not sure that clarified my question. We have thrown money at this before, but, if you don't put enough money to keep pace with the deficit as it grows, you don't actually close the gap. Can I just clarify that? If it is 40, the goal is to get it to 35, and then this will cost us more than $5 million. Is that correct?
Thank you, Member for Yellowknife North. Madam Premier. Mr. Goldney.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Part of the thinking for that $5 million number was recognizing, yes, that the old numbers we have might not be current but at the same time recognizing that, if we were to do that all over again, it would lead to more work and discussion. I think the commitment we are trying to express is that, at a minimum, we improve the fiscal capacity by adding investments of at least $5 million. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Goldney. Member for Yellowknife North.
I suspect that I will ask this question at a later time. I think there needs to be some analysis of whether we are just providing $5 million flat or whether we are closing the gap by $5 million, because those are different numbers. My next question is: this is coming in the next three budgets, 2021, 2022, 2023; is the anticipation that those will all be equal amounts of the $5 million and whether it is $5-million-plus? Will it be equally distributed?
Thank you, Member for Yellowknife North. Madam Premier.
Thank you, Madam Chair. We have agreed to work with the NWT Association of Communities on this. There is a funding formula, but, in fairness, some communities, the $40 million gap is not across the board. Some communities, when they did the assessment, were above. Previous governments said they would be grandfathered. Is it fair that they get another share? Those are questions that we need to work with the association of communities on. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Madam Premier. Are there any further questions? Member for Hay River South.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I am not sure throwing $5 million at it is going to do anything if we just keep it, try to stop it from growing, because the problem is that our communities have aging infrastructure that we have to deal with and that is what we have to throw money at. I think that we are looking at trying to reduce the debt. I think what we should be doing is trying to just maintain it so it doesn't get any bigger and then try and grow the economy, try and deal with some of the other issues. And it gives us a little time to kind of regroup and really think about the issue. Just a comment. Thank you.
All right. I will take that as a comment. Madam Premier, did you want to respond?
Thank you, Madam Chair. The only thing I will say is there are three pots; I am trying to remember what they are. It's capital, operating and maintenance, and wastewater? It has been a while since I've been MACA. Water and sewer. The difficulty that I have noticed over the years is that the communities keep screaming, "We need our $40 million, $40 million, $40 million," but we have almost matched them for the operating and maintenance and the water and sewer. The piece that is left is the capital.
However, what they are not including in that is that MACA has done an awesome job over the years of actually getting federal money for the capital. At no time has that federal money been taken into account on this $40 million, and that is what I struggle with as an MLA, is that they are saying, "It's still $40 million; we need the money," but they're not adding the money from the federal government.
Sometimes you have to do this. If you look at our mandates, some of this is about them generating their own, giving them the ability so that they can generate their own. We have to do a better job of communicating that it's not only the GNWT. They need to take into account the federal money. They need to take into account their own ability to earn money. We're all in a tough spot; I think I heard that today again. The only way that we can make money is from royalties, federal government, and taxes, but many of the governments don't want to raise taxes, and neither do we, but we all have to take ownership in this, because not one of us is in a position that we have money growing on trees. We're all in debt. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Madam Premier. Member for Hay River South.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I agree. The communities have to do something themselves. We have been doing the same thing, the same way, for years. We have to reinvent ourselves somehow. I guess I think about Hay River, and I look at the bylaws, and I look at all that. People are looking for tiny homes, yet we say you have to build a house a certain size on the lot. Well, times are changing, and we have to make those changes. If we can do that, sometimes if you can maybe reduce the cost a bit, if that brings more people into the North, that's another $30-some-thousand for us. Those are the types of things that we have to do, but those are conversations that this government has to have with the communities as well and let them know that, you know, there has to be some active change here. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member for Hay River South. Madam Premier.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Agreed. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Madam Premier. Are there any further questions on the "reduce the municipal funding gap"? Member for Thebacha.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I guess my question is: reducing the funding gap by $5 million, if the funds are going to be distributed evenly over the communities, including Yellowknife, how much does that leave for a community? How is it going to be done? Is it going to be done by demand, or is it going to be done per capita, or is it going to be done by -- I would like to know that.
Minister of Municipal and Community Affairs.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I will try to make this short. I wanted to express that, with the funding gap that MACA currently has with the $40 million, we try our best to not let the communities feel that breakdown. We have entered into new opportunities. One of them that I am kind of excited about is the lotteries for the Northwest Territories, that we are taking it over as a government to generate revenue for our sports and recreation, which is probably our largest is expenditure, as well, too, and looking at the water and waste management for the smaller communities, and the upgrades, and land tenure, and looking at the function that they hold as a municipality.
Going forward, I would really like to emphasize the property taxation, as well, too, and really putting out a lot of emphasis on it, so that communities would come to more of a clear understanding, to look at generating revenue at a local level, but I really want to stress that 87 percent of the funding that MACA receives goes out to the smaller communities. We do our best to not let the communities feel that cut, but then, actually looking at the infrastructure that is built, they do have funding that is available to them. They do come up with their own capital plan, their own budget, and they identify how that money is going to be spent at a community local level. I just wanted to make that clear, if that's good. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Madam Premier, did you have anything to add?
Thank you, Madam Chair. What I would like to expand on is, we talked about $5 million, but if you look down further, we are talking about a process to transfer lands. There is a value to lands, when we put that in. For example, when I was the -- I can't remember which Minister I was at the time, but we brought in the hotel tax so that communities could actually take that tax and actually implement that, and it's still not off the ground.
Like the Member had said, we need to work with the governments. We can give it to them, but my worry is, we're going to give them land; we're going to make legislation to make it easier; we're going to give them the $5 million, and they're going to still say, "We're still $35 million short." At some point, we're going to have those tough conversations that says, "This land is equal to that," and a tough conversation that says, "When you got federal government money for your capital, that is equalling off of that." Those are conversations that we have to have, because there is a value to land. There is a value to all of these things that we are doing for them. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Madam Premier. Member for Thebacha.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I don't think either one of you has answered my question. I said, is it going to be by need, or is it going to be by per capita, the $5 million distributed?
Madam Premier.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I do know that there is a funding formula that is worked on with the NWT Association of Communities. We work closely with them on this. They represent all communities. All communities have a say in that organization, but I will commit to actually finding out more information for the Member. All I know is that we work with them, they help us allocate, and they represent all communities. They allocate where the monies go to, and that is done in partnership. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Madam Premier. Member for Thebacha.
