Debates of March 5, 2020 (day 15)

Thank you, Minister. Are there any other questions? Member for Frame Lake.

Thanks, Madam Chair. I want to thank my colleague from Yellowknife North for stealing a number of my questions, but I will try to do a mop-up operation here. For land use planning, can someone tell me how much we're spending on land use planning in the Wek'eezhii Management Area for 2020-2021? Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member for Frame Lake. Minister of Lands.

Thank you. In 2019-2020, we spent $647,000, and Infrastructure spent $79,000 for a total of $753,000. For the fiscal year coming up, we budgeted $497,000, and Infrastructure has budgeted $79,000, for a total of $576,000. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Frame Lake.

Thanks, Madam Chair. I believe in land use planning. It's what got me up here in 1985; I was the land use planning coordinator for the Dene Nation. Why are we spending our money to do land use planning in the Wek'eezhii Management Area? Clearly, this is a federal land rights agreement implementation issue. The feds should be paying for this. Why are we paying for this and not the feds? This is not the first time I've raised this. Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member for Frame Lake. Minister of Lands.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I am going to start, and then I am going to turn it to the assistant deputy minister. This is a collaborative approach between the federal government, the Government of the Northwest Territories, and the Tlicho government. It's a collaborative approach to it. For further detail, I am going to ask Mr. Hall to provide further detail, with your permission.

Thank you, Minister. Mr. Hall.

Speaker: MR. HALL

Thank you, Madam Chair. The planning process in Wek'eezhii, we have undertaken with the Tlicho government and the Government of Canada, all full partners in that process. We agree that Canada is the party responsible to fund land use planning in the NWT, as they have done for the Gwich'in and Sahtu plans. What we are doing through our funding for Wek'eezhii planning is getting the groundwork in place in order for a planning process to take place. We are still looking at Canada to fund that planning process. Our contribution is to prepare for that planning process. This commitment sort of stems from the Land Use and Sustainability Framework, where the GNWT stated that it wishes to promote and support effective land use planning throughout the NWT. This is our part to get the ball rolling for Wek'eezhii planning, but yes, we are looking to Canada to fund the planning process. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Haul. Member for Frame Lake.

Thanks, Madam Chair. Look, there's a dispute resolution process in the Tlicho agreement. I don't know why we don't trigger that, start the formal process, and take it to arbitration if we have to. This is clearly a federal responsibility, and the feds should be paying for this. It should not be coming out of our money. I leave that for the Minister. I left it for the last Minister; nothing was done. I don't want to be here three years from now without our government having actually stood up for our rights under the agreement. Work with the Tlicho government. Submit a joint dispute resolution submission. Get this thing sorted out.

Madam Chair, I want to move on to securities. We had this issue brought to the Standing Committee on Economic Development and Environment that there seems to be a problem with our government accepting land and water security that has come from the land and water boards as a consolidated amount. From what I understand, they refuse to accept security that had been estimated for the Misery Deep project. Has this been sorted out, or are we still insisting that the land and water securities be held separately? This may not be a big deal for that particular project, but as other big projects come along, or renewals of licences come along, this has got to be sorted out. Otherwise, we're not accepting securities that the companies themselves want to put up. Has this been resolved, Madam Chair?

Thank you, Member for Frame Lake. Minister of Lands.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Right now, I would have to say no, it hasn't been resolved. We're looking into it and, again, we're trying to get it right, but right now I can say that it has not been resolved, to our knowledge. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Frame Lake.

Thanks, Madam Chair. I thought I was going to get excited with the last set of questions. You know, I don't know what the problem is, here. The feds were able to accept these kinds of security estimates, and they took the securities, they held them, and now our government doesn't want to do that? This is putting our taxpayers at risk. We raised with the previous Minister of Lands in the context of the Public Land Act. We tried to build in provisions to try to deal with this, allowing for that Minister to make agreements with other Ministers; the Minister's twin, ENR. The Minister wouldn't go for it. This has got to get sorted out, or our taxpayers are going to be at risk for hundreds of millions of dollars of environmental liabilities. When does the Minister anticipate sorting this out? Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member for Frame Lake. Minister of Lands.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I don't want to lie, here, and say tomorrow or the next day. What I will do is I will make a commitment to come back to committee and give an update where we are and how we're moving forward. So I can give you that commitment. I can't give you an exact date, but working with the two departments to present that information to committee. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Frame Lake.

Thanks, Madam Chair. Yes, I really look forward to that briefing and the information coming forward. I guess I've sat here really patiently for four years, now. In the last mandate, there was a commitment to develop a comprehensive approach framework to prevent public liabilities coming to this government and, guess what, it has already happened. I predicted it, and it has happened. Our government has not developed any policy in this area. The only legislative thing that I'm aware of is rolling back the requirement for mandatory financial security. We tried to get that into the Public Land Act. The Minister refused. I don't know where we're going with this stuff as a government. We cannot demonstrate to even our own citizens or taxpayers that we can responsibly manage resources, so how are you going to convince the federal government to give us more delegated authority under the NVRMA, or give us control over the NVRMA? I want a plan, and I want it now, and our taxpayers deserve a plan. When is the Minister going to start to sort this out and protect the taxpayers and the environment of the Northwest Territories? Thanks, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member for Frame Lake. Minister of Lands.

Thank you, Madam Chair. We agree with the Member. We agree that polluters should be paying, and at this point in time, for more details, I'm going to ask the deputy minister through your permission. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Ms. Haener.

Speaker: MS. HAENER

Thank you, Mr. Chair. As the Minister said, we believe the polluter should pay. When government makes presentations to regulatory bodies, we do so presenting figures representing full clean-up costs, and those are the positions we put forward. At times, boards will vary the security provisions or not accept our submission. I believe that the work that the Executive and Indigenous Affairs is undertaking in order to work toward greater control with the NVRMA would allow us to have greater control and issue policy direction to a regulatory body in this area, and that is certainly something that I think would benefit the territory. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Haener. Are there any further questions on this section? Member for Deh Cho.

Ronald Bonnetrouge

Deh Cho

Mahsi, Madam Chair. Getting back to the land use planning and the GNWT's intent to create a revised Public Land Act, from what I'm reading here, it says they are going to conduct regional land use planning and coordinate the GNWT input into land use planning processes. It also further states that they will work with external planning partners, including Indigenous governments. I'm wondering if these planning partners that are Indigenous are the ones that signed on to devolution, because there is no mention of consulting with the claimant groups, the Dehcho First Nations or the Akaitcho Treaty 8 people, yet you're going to go ahead and make a Public Land Act and not incorporate or perhaps do your meaningful consultation with these groups, because I believe that Executive and Indigenous Affairs is also looking at that part. They're the ones in charge of negotiations, and you're wanting to do this within three years, to have the Public Land Act. Maybe it's a message that you're hoping to settle all the claims within the three years. Maybe this summer, and then write your new document for two years. You know, it's probably sounding encouraging in that regard, but I'm wondering what your views are, if you've got any type of answers to what I've just been saying. Mahsi.

Thank you, Member for Deh Cho. Minister of Lands.

Thank you, Madam Chair. We work with all Indigenous governments, whether they signed off on devolution or not, but it's also part of the fundamental process moving forward; we need to get these plans forward. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Deh Cho.

Ronald Bonnetrouge

Deh Cho

So does that mean you are going to be consulting with the Dehcho First Nations? Mahsi, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member for Deh Cho. Minister of Lands.

Thank you, Madam Chair. We do consult but, at this point in time, I'll actually have one of the people who are part of the process, Mr. Hall, actually explain so everybody understands our role with all Indigenous governments, and particularly with DFN. Thank you, Madam Chair. Through your permission, of course.

Thank you, Minister. Mr. Hall.

Speaker: MR. HALL

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just to clarify, there is a separation between the Public Land Act and land use planning. Land use planning occurs through a separate process, and, in each of the areas where we are conducting land use planning, Indigenous governments in those areas are highly consulted and are part of the planning process. As an example of the Gwich'in and Sahtu plans, they are also an approving party to the plan. Through the Dehcho process right now, there is planning work going on and the Dehcho First Nations are part of that process. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Hall. Are there questions on planning and coordination? Seeing no further questions, please turn to page 308, Lands, planning and coordination, operations expenditure summary, 2020-2021 Main Estimates, $7,639,000. Does committee agree?

Speaker: SOME HON. MEMBERS

Agreed.

Thank you, Members. Please return now to the departmental summary found on page 297. Member for Frame Lake.

Committee Motion 5-19(2): Tabled Document 30-19(2): Main Estimates 2020-2021 – Lands - Deferral of Further Consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Lands, Carried

Thanks, Madam Chair. I move that this committee defer further consideration of the estimates for the Department of Lands at this time. Thank you, Madam Chair.

The motion is on the floor and being distributed. The motion is in order. To the motion.

Speaker: SOME HON. MEMBERS

Question.

Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

Committee, we have agreed to defer the estimates for the Department of Lands at this time. Member for Frame Lake.

Thanks, Madam Chair. I move that the chair rise and report progress. Thanks, Madam Chair.

There is a motion on the floor to report progress. The motion is in order and non-debatable. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried.

---Carried

I will now rise and report progress.

Report of Committee of the Whole