Okay, thank you. Are there questions on asset? Member for Deh Cho.
Mahsi, Madam Chair. I am looking at page 228, specifically the Deh Cho Bridge Opportunities Grant. It states that the grant is for the purpose of creating community benefits and economic opportunities related to the Deh Cho Bridge. I know they get I think it's $200,000 on a yearly basis. I had asked the questions, I think, through emails previously.
I believe the agreement states that, in the eighth year, it can be up for renegotiating, or maybe to negotiate the parameters or the criteria. Right now, it's strictly for somebody who gets a business licence, and they are getting free funds, free money as a business, and it's continuing every year. The business doesn't even have to be successful. It doesn't even have to go out and get a contract.
That is what I noticed as a project officer. Those construction companies weren't even bidding on contracts that were in the community. It was going to people from La Crete. I just thought the CERB funding and all this funding where they just get it for free and no incentive to really go out and actually do some work and bid on contracts. My question is that the time surrounding this funding could be negotiated so that we can use the funding to create employment within the community, you know like make-work projects or else it can be used to build something, maybe upgrade the harbour or something like that?
Because I know right now you can't do much with that funding except those little criteria, you know. It does benefit the schools and the employment office and those kinds of people, but not a huge amount, and we never, ever get any reports on a yearly basis to see what is the tax we have and who is getting all of this money on a yearly basis, you know, those type of things. Because there are people who could be in conflict who actually handle this money, who are getting those grants, too. My question around that is: can it be opened? Since you are in the eighth year, can it be looked at to get away from specific criteria and be open for the wishes of the community? Mahsi
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. It is my understanding that that grant is fairly flexible and can be used for different items within the community, its cultural well-being, education and training, community economic development, a small portion going to administration. I will commit that we can give you an annual report. I think that is completely a fair and valid request, and so we definitely will do that.
Like a lot of the programming that we are talking about with the federal government or within our GNWT programs, we talked a lot around flexibility. You will see with the SEED funding under ITI that we did change some of the parameters around that funding. That is another thing that the federal government is doing around infrastructure, is removing some of the restrictions so that we have more flexibility to make those decisions for ourselves because we know where things need to be spent and done right now with COVID-19 and being able to bring in the lens of keeping people employed and working and businesses operating. So we have all of this. We are already having this discussion about flexibility with our different funding pots, so I would add this to our list. We will definitely look at it. I know there have been ongoing conversations with the Member regarding this grant, and I can commit to continuing to have those conversations with him and going forward together. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Member for Deh Cho.
Mahsi for that. I know you have a set criteria for the funding because you did mention those other, the different criteria for the grants that people can use, but I have never, ever seen or heard anything in the community that any of that money given to those four areas created employment. That is why my question is: can we have this modified, the criteria changed, so it benefits the community so that they can maybe look at building something or getting a large infrastructure, maybe a community freezer, that type of stuff? Then it creates some employment in other areas, constructing a building or something like this, to keep people employed. I am wondering if you can, if you are open to that, could write a letter to the Deh Gah bridge corporation to initiate discussions leading up to any changes that we can see and if they can identify some opportunities and if you would be open to making some changes to some of the criteria. Mahsi.
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. It is my understanding there is no criteria. I am just wondering if it's perhaps an education piece, that we maybe need to be letting people know that they could kind of come together with a proposal that would have more of a significant build or such. I am almost wondering if this is perhaps a function of small businesses just accessing the pot on their own and nobody really thinking to get together to create a large proposal for accessing the funding. My understanding, there is no criteria or limits to what could be accessed; it's just a request, and then the funding goes to those businesses.
We definitely will commit to revisit, and maybe I don't have that right, so I do commit to revisiting that with you and having that conversation with you, then, so we can ensure that we use the money in a sort of more effective and efficient way, is I think what I am hearing you say, so that we come up with something big versus tiny little bits of companies advancing slightly. I think maybe that is an area where the department could do better outreach, then, and come in and say, "Hey, have you guys thought about using this pot? You guys want to build an arena in that location?" I do not know what Providence's immediate demands are, but maybe that is a conversation we should be saying: "You know, you have this money and this funding; why does not a company come together and bid on it?" Thank you. I commit to that, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Member for Deh Cho.
Yes, thanks for all that. Just to let you know, it was like a secretive group, you know. I was asking questions of the corporation. I guess some members were getting upset because I was asking questions of it when I was working out of Hay River. I was asking, "Where is this? Who is on the board? When do you guys have meetings?" Apparently, what they do is they send emails to each other. Because I was asking questions, it turned a lot of them off, against me. I could not believe it. You know, asking questions and the administrator, she does the finances and stuff, and I asked questions of her, and she just refuses to answer anything whatsoever. We don't know that. Every time we are trying to ask something, we are being turned away. We are not being given straight-out answers or anything. I have asked the band councils and that if these boards are accountable to them and if they see reports, and they don't seem to want to do that. They don't want to hold anybody accountable for anything.
Regarding the reports, I am not sure if you legally can share it with me, but, if you can and it's okay, then I would like to see a report. Mahsi.
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate that you've raised the point of the fact that perhaps there are things we actually cannot tell you from an agreement, but definitely, everything that we can tell, I would like to provide that to you so you have comfort that the money is going out in a good manner. If it's not, that will tell us that we need to make some corrections there. So I definitely commit to reporting on whatever we can that is not in violation of any sort of accounting or agreements, but I would have to look into that, and I commit to looking into it, for myself. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Are you good? Okay. Questions. Member for Monfwi.
Masi, Madam Chair. [Translation] I just, Madam Chair, would like to say about the road, the access road on our land and towards Behchoko, last year, they did some drilling, and they were getting prepared. Last week, the Minister with the grand chief, chiefs, all the chiefs in Tlicho region, meeting with the Premier and the Minister, they did a public tender, and then the Yellowknife local, they left it in Yellowknife to leave it in Yellowknife to do. The tender was out, and it was like it was condemned. It was going to be the favouritism to Yellowknife, but now it's like we see some changes now. We are happy about it, but now, under chapter 26, and I am hoping that these people who are doing the books are well prepared in understanding about our system, about how we are going. So just like my friend across from me, he had the same question. Right now, a lot of money that is coming this way, to NWT, it looks very, very well, but a lot of times in a contract that they do is it written for the business or the road that that's going to happen, that business to the road, that access road, every time there is a contract, is there a saying in that a document that 87 percent that would be able to go to the people in from our territory. That's what I'm asking right now. [End of translation]
[Microphone turned off]
I have noted what the Member has said and his concerns with the Rae Access Road. I have to apologize; I didn't quite catch your question. I do commit that, obviously, we're going to do lessons learned. That's a big part of the engineering world and I know you're probably going to get sick of, just as much as you get sick of the Premier's saying she's a social worker, you may get sick of me saying I'm engineer after a while, but that is the engineering process, to go back and look at our past ones and see what we've done wrong. Clearly the Member has a feeling and believes that we've done wrong when it comes to the TASR and the way that the Rae Access Road comes. I commit to you that I'm listening to what you have to say, and all of those lessons learned, because I don't want to be sitting in the House again or be having that conversation again with the Tlicho chiefs. I commit to learn the lessons from these projects and do better and do differently going forward. Thank you.
Thank you. Member for Monfwi.
Masi, Madam Chair. Obviously, I would just like to have a clear dialogue with the department. Obviously, we've learned from TASR, we've learned from Tlicho All Season Road. This Rae Access Road, if we didn't meet the public tender, would still be out there. Obviously, it would have gotten even worse from my leadership. I'm glad the Premier and Minister met with us to deal with that. It shouldn't come to that, that's what I'm saying. We should have a concrete written agreement with such agreements, similar to what the Member for Kam Lake is alluding to, that there is 80 percent going to northern contracts. Is that written in stone within a contract? I know the contracts are different and a different calibre of the whole Northwest Territories. I'm just wondering, Madam Chair, if it is written in such a way that the Northerners are benefitting? I know that TASR, there is a certain percentage. To my knowledge, it is low, but that was negotiated before us in last fall before the elections. With this new access road and Tlicho Bridge that's coming, I want to be prepared for that. Is there any set agreement on numbers? That's what I'm after, Madam Chair. Masi.
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, you're right, every contract is going to be different. I do recognize that, if we don't change the language in our contracts, we're just going to keep letting people game the system, which is what's happening. That's when you see the cutting of the cheque or, you know, the bait and switch of, "oh, we've got these people" and then, "oh, now we've got the contract we're going to hire these people." All of those types of situations are things that I'm pretty aware of and alive to and part of my motivations for getting into this seat in the first place. All parts of the conversations that we're having, I would actually like to offer that you do come and have the conversation with me and my department and we discuss what you want to see for the Tlicho, I'm going to start calling it, the Frank Channel Bridge when we get that funding, et cetera. I would say, yes, come to us. Let's have that conversation and make sure that, when we go forward the next time, it's not in a manner where you're going to be upset or it's not meeting the needs of your people, or the Member's people. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Member for Monfwi.
Mahsi, Madam Chair. Once we get the funding, not when, once we get the funding. We will get the funding, I'm hoping. Madam Chair, just maybe one more question. Other expected projects, we talk about asset management and planning design of buildings. There has been discussion and we met with the Minister of Education, Culture and Employment on a Behchoko school. It's been four months now, I think we met, I believe, in January. I'm just wondering if this an opportunity to discuss that, because it is part of asset management. I'm just wondering on the status. If Members or staff don't have any information, I would love to get some information later on, as well. Mahsi.
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. This would be under ECE's department. They are a client group of Infrastructure, but it is under their department for those conversations. I know that Minister Simpson was just very nice to let me know that they haven't reached out to the chiefs yet, and perhaps that's going to be coming soon but I can't speak for ECE. We can, again, maybe have another conversation outside of the Committee of the Whole. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Are there other questions under asset management? Member for Hay River South.
Thank you, Madam Chair. With respect to the highway systems, the design, I expect that they've looked at all the highways in the Territories and have done some assessment and prioritized them as to which ones have to be looked at first? My concern is that Highway 1, from the border to Enterprise and also Highway 2, from Enterprise into Hay River, there hasn't really been any realignment or any widening in the last number of years. I know that because once in a while I ride my bicycle to the border. There is not much there for a shoulder. We have a number of trucks [microphone turned off] and we're lucky we haven't had any major accidents. A month or so ago, or a few weeks ago, they blocked off, for instance, the access to the Alexander Falls and parking area. People then were parking on the highway, which was a safety issue, and that got resolved fairly quickly. I guess I would like to know and I would like to see something done with those sections of the highway, because nothing has been done in a while and they are important to the big trucks heading into the mines and into Yellowknife. We have got to do something sooner than later on that. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. As part of that project matrix that I was talking about earlier, all the highways are included in that. Yes, we do look at ranking them and determining which ones need repair and rehabilitation sooner rather than later. We can definitely commit to looking at the particular areas that you are looking at. We do have a published highways report that could be, if the Member wants more information you can access that. I'm definitely willing to take those suggestions back and we can look at where those pieces of infrastructure fall into the planning for the department and when we might see them realistically being addressed. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Member for Hay River South.
Thank you, Madam Chair. The other thing is with respect to contracts. In the past, the contracts, years ago, they used to be broken down and then we kind of start combining them together and making them bigger. What that did was discourage northern contractors, the smaller ones, from bidding and not getting work. Has the department looked at possibly breaking those contracts down, or the way they're putting the contracts out, to ensure that small businesses, small contractors, can pick up some of the work on their own? Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. It's funny because, as you say that to me, I have contractors in different areas of the territory that tell me, "Stop breaking down contracts. I don't want bid on just providing a loader." Again, a very complex situation, which I think we do have to look at as a case-by-case situation. I was joking with someone earlier that it would be easier if the all the contractors would just get together and come to me with all the portions of the project that they have agreed upon to work on, but that is not going to happen. I do recognize that that is a function of what my department needs to do, is taking at a realistic look at the capacities within a region and seeing, okay, if we carve out certain parts of this project, we will get more companies working, but it will have to be, I believe, project by project. We can't make a statement overall that we are going to have one guy providing the loader, one guy providing the pickup truck. Sorry, I know you are not talking to that degree, but definitely we will take that back because one of the things that is happening is we do have large infrastructure projects coming that do need to have a certain calibre or certain types of skill sets that we do not have in the Northwest Territories.
This is again part of that entire procurement review that we are starting, underway between the departments. It's part of the mandates of the 19th Assembly, was to maximize benefits to northern business, Indigenous business. We are looking at Indigenous procurement options and what we can do now to ensure that more Northerners are working because all of the companies are coming to me, saying, "We don't want a handout. We don't want a wage. We want work." So that is a message that is resonating really loudly with me and I am taking back to my departments. Thank you, Madam Chair
Thank you, Minister. Member for Hay River South.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Basically, that is what I have been hearing, too, is that contractors want to work because, if they are taking loans and they are taking deferrals and that, really they are just putting themselves further in debt, and that does not help their survival. The other area is in engineering opportunities. We have a number of larger engineering firms here in the territories, but we also have in Hay River a smaller one. It was born here in the North. It was born in Hay River, and it is owned by local people, but again, there they have problems trying to compete because they might say, "Well, we don't have this or we don't have a land surveyor or we may not have a geotech person," but they do have access to those types of people.
I would like to see, I guess, somehow that we can ensure that those smaller firms as well have an opportunity to bid on the work and allow them to build some capacity to grow bigger, as well. The other problem I have, too, is that, when we talk about not having capacity here, if we are putting contracts out and if we see that maybe some of the same contractors are always getting the work, then we have to get some buy-in or we have to somehow force them to relocate here or set up an office. We cannot just allow them to pick up a contract and operate down south. There has got to be something for us here in the Northwest Territories. If they are not willing to do it, we have to look at how we are going to approach that and how we can change that. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member. Minister.
I think the Member makes really good points, all things that I have considered. I am in one of the engineering companies that does not have the people to bid on something. Another part that we see often is, as stated, the downturn in Alberta occurred. We had a lot of people who started to buy work in the North. That is a problem, and that is again, I guess, back to the negotiated contract versus the RFP-type conversation, because I cannot go out and tell a company not to lower their rates of their employees to win a job. So I understand that that has to now be coming back into the RFP and how we are writing that and how we are scoring people and holding people accountable when they are proposing to put certain people on projects but also building in the training capacities, like you talk about.
I think, as we move to more virtual business anyway, it will be very hard to force people to open up brick and mortar offices in the North, but I totally know what the Member is saying, and it's all part of the conversation that we are having as part of the procurement review and part of a larger conversation that we are having as a Cabinet in the sense of not just looking at dollar for dollar but looking at those intangible or indirect benefits of, you know, if we spend the $200,000 with the northern company, well, that saves 10 employees from going on unemployment, so are we going to start factoring in that amount of money for IA into the change in that bid? I mean, we cannot do that in the bid scoring, but we need to start changing the mentality so that we recognize that the lowest bid is not always the right bid or the best bid. Most engineers will fight for quality-based selection, where you don't even start talking about money until you have actually made it through the technical bid and you've chosen a firm to negotiate with.
Unfortunately, I think, with the way our financials are set up, it will not work. Because we do not start until April, we miss our field season, and that is actually a good point I should make on procurement with contracts. Because of the setup of the money not coming till April, it really forces the Department of Infrastructure to have to do stuff very, very quickly because our client departments are not coming to us until they have their funding, to say, "I want to build this project." All of a sudden, we are finding out in May we need to start building projects this summer, and, a lot of that, it gets delayed. I saw it in my own work, and I have to think it's impacting the entire departments overall. I had a conversation with someone, "It would be great to shift to January-January," because then we'd actually have four months of winter to plan what we are doing in the summer. I think that does add to some of this problem that is occurring. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Member for Hay River South.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I guess for businesses in the North, you know, we are always concerned that people will say they are charging too much, but the cost of doing business here and having a brick and mortar here is costly. We are paying higher rates all around. Somehow we expect that BIP is going to take that into account, and it does somewhat but not fully. Now we are not taking into account the downturn in the economy down south. There is a cost to that. How do we include that when we are putting tenders out there? That is why I think it's very important that we deal with BIP as soon as we can and do some changes to it because it's a powerful tool; it could be a powerful tool for us. It's been good, but with the economy the way it is in the South, it does not give us the advantage it used to. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member. Minister, a short answer.
Thank you, Madam Chair. That is my other department's hat. I will take that back.
Thank you. Members, it's 6:00. We have been going for just about an hour now. Are any more question under assets, or did you want to finish assets and then break for supper?
Agreed.
Okay. Member for Frame Lake.
Thanks, Madam Chair. On page 227, the contract services amount last year was $3,978,000. This year it's $4,332,000. Can someone explain what's happening there? Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member.
Thank you, Madam Chair. In that one, we had an increase of $345,000, and that was the Northern Transportation Adaptation Initiative. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Member for Frame Lake. No? Are there other questions under asset management? All right, so there are no further questions under asset management. Infrastructure, asset management, operations expenditure, on page 227 of the 2020-2021 Main Estimates, $19,254,000. Does committee agree?
Agreed.
Thank you. We will now take a break.
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I will call the committee back to order, and we are moving on to Infrastructure, corporate management, operations expenditures, on pages 230 and 231. Just wait. Where am I? Corporate management, yes, sorry. I'm throwing my pages around. Pages 230 to 233. Questions? Member for Kam Lake.
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. First off, I am very happy to see the allotment for Students Against Drinking and Driving. I appreciate that line item. Thank you very much. I am wondering if the Minister can please speak to the line item for strategic infrastructure that seems to vary quite a bit from year to year. Thank you.
