Members, what is the wish of the committee? Mr. Norn.
Marsi cho, Madam Chair. Committee wishes to consider Tabled Document 30-19(2), Main Estimates 2020-2021.
Thank you, Mr. Norn. We will resume after a short break.
---SHORT RECESS
Good afternoon, Members. Today, we are going to continue our review of the Department of Health and Social Services budget. When we left off yesterday, we were talking about the section on out of territory services. Are there any additional questions on out of territory services in the Health and Social Services budget? I think that's beginning about page 175 of your document. Are there any additional questions on out of territory services? Sergeant-at-Arms, could you please escort in the witnesses. Will the Minister of Health to again introduce her witnesses, please.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Today, I have with me Deputy Minister Bruce Cooper and Ms. Mathison. Thank you.
Thank you, Madam Minister. I have on the speaker's list the Member for Monfwi. Please go ahead.
Masi, Madam Chair. [Translation] Thank you, Madam Chair. Page 180, that's what I'm referring to, about the English term, when we say addiction treatment centres, meaning that, for the treatment, they would be able to be sent to Edmonton, but last year, according to the record, there were 191 sent for treatment, and that spent well over $200,000 on residential, school, and medical services, all together included, but because I don't know if it would be in the same department, I would like to ask about that one. Sending people for treatment out of the territory, is it under Health and Social Services? Would they be able to look into it again? Regarding the 191 people who were sent out of the territory, is it possible that they could be treated or going for treatment here in the territory, because there is on-the-land funding?
We have a lot of elders today who would be able to treat. Our leaders, our teachers, would know how to help with the treatment, but people referring to working on themselves, we are always sending them out of the territory. Let's not do it anymore. Let's have an addictions program here in the territory and have elders working with them. Put them in place. We know they are strong, respecting our elders, and also have an aftercare program, as well, with it. Right now, I would like to ask the Minister: was there ever an issue, topic of discussion, about this kind of treatment being put in the territory? We know how many were sent. That's money that could be spent in the territory. Can the Minister respond to that? [Translation ends]
[Microphone turned off] ...Minister of Health and Social Services.
[Translation] Madam Chair, addiction treatment centre [English translation not available] [Translation ends] I hear where the Member is coming from in terms of looking at doing something closer to home, including our elders, including our residents. Right now, within the department, we provide funding to all the Indigenous groups to have an on-the-land fund. In terms of the addictions, have we thought about that in the past? I am going to ask Mr. Cooper if we have thought about that previously.
Thank you, Minister. Deputy Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, in fact, there had been four different residential addictions facilities in the NWT over the years. The last facility closed in 2013, and that is when the department signed contracts with southern providers. At the time, the thought was that using southern providers would provide for more specialized treatment, more choice for people. To now, our focus has been on southern facilities that we have certainly heard issues around aftercare. Certainly, the experiences that we have had with the COVID response and observing the impact on people through the disability council initiative has caused us to consider this issue of: what could we be doing here in the North to add onto the on-the-land that we've been doing, and might there be other opportunities to look at a treatment centre? It is certainly something that's not off the table. It is something we are going to be looking at as a range of options to incorporate lessons learned out of COVID.
I do think it is important, notwithstanding the challenges that exist with aftercare and housing, we do have about 70 to 75 percent of people who attend treatment in the South in our current model who do return here sober. We have been focusing a lot on efforts to make sure that this gets maintained and they continue to get supported. All that to say that we are, absolutely, open to the idea of looking at a treatment centre, and we'll be taking a look at this question, and different treatment models as part of our planning forward. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Deputy Minister. Follow-up question, Member for Monfwi.
[Translation] Thank you, Madam Chair. About the treatment, when we speak of treatment, sending people out to Edmonton, it has been seven years now in the Northwest Territories. There is no addiction treatment centre with us right now, but we know we have an agreement with Edmonton or Alberta for the treatment of our people. When can we have our own program, an agreement, on-the-land program within our region? We all need the treatment. We want it very strong so that we get very strong elders. We know; we lived here; we grew up with elders and how we respect our elders when they speak to us. However, what we are going through in addictions of all sorts, alcohol, drugs. If we put it all on the side, we are strong enough. We would be able to take their words and go with this after-treatment program.
When we speak of it, I am not really in favour of sending people out. They come back; there is no aftercare program. I have to say that again for our young man that we have lost recently. What happened to him? When I look at it today, it's a very heavy issue. It's very important that we share it. How come we don't have treatment on our land in our home community? We lose a lot of people to addiction. It's not very healthy one way. I would like to see programs within our regions. On-the-land programs are very important. If it's under them, it would be very powerful.
When we send them away, out of the territory, for treatment, when they come back, what do we see? We don't have an aftercare program. We also spend a lot of money going out that way, but if we have it within our homeland, we would have the control of being funded. Right now, if it's out of control, we would be able to control it from here. When they are out there, we don't know what's going on. We don't really know what they are doing with them. Again, I have to say, we don't know. When they come back, they are back to square one with their addiction. We see that.
This is why I am repeating this, especially in my home community, my region. How many weeks now that we have lost all sorts of people, young and old? I have to continue. I have to be very strong and do whatever I can for my people. It has to be fixed. It has to happen. Right now, I would prefer to have a motion. Justice Department, ECE, they have to be able to be working together. This is why. Are the Ministers able to work together and have a proposal together and say this is what they can do for our homeland so it can be done? Is it possible that would happen? I know it's not going to happen right now, but when we leave now, when we come back to the table in the fall, we would have something in place. It would be the beginning of having a discussion and very strong to have this treatment for our people. Thank you, Madam Chair. [Translation ends]
Thank you, Member for Monfwi. Our condolences to the families of those who have died in your region as a result of their addictions. I am going to turn to the Minister now for her response.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Again, I apologize, too, for what the Member's family has gone through as a result of mental health and addiction. Right now, in the territories, we have the Mental Wellness and Recovery Action Plan, which supports the 19th Assembly's priorities, which is increasing the number of culturally respected, community-based mental health and addictions programs, including aftercare. Some of the key activities in this action plan include reducing wait times and increasing access to counselling services by establishing access to e-mental health options, enhancing supports and aftercare options for individuals who are recovering from addictions, as well as developing a GNWT problematic substance abuse task force, which includes developing a territorial plan on alcohol. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Any further comments, Member for Monfwi.
[Translation] Masi, Madam Chair. Just a short form. I would like to just say to the Minister what is written in front of her, she is reading, but most of the time there's no follow-up. I'll have to say what happened to my home or my region. If we had actions about what we have, it would be good. Right now, I'm asking the Minister if she would be able to say: let's have a strong after-care program proposal. It's not only for communities, because I know, I hear, in other regions, they have all these issues, this problem like the Tlicho community, see if she would also work with them. In the short form, I'd like to have her to work with PSEA so that this after-care program would be strong. Thank you. [End of translation]
Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I hear the Member asking our department to work with the Tlicho government and the residents in terms of how we come up with solutions to better enhance some of our programs so that we can deal with mental health and addictions. That is something our department will look into. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Next on my list, I have the Member for Thebacha.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to make some clarifications with regard to addictions. I, too, in my region, have a lot of mental health issues, and I had deaths in our region due to addictions. I respect the Member from the Tlicho. He is asking for more monies put into on-the-land, but I want to make sure that the option is still there for members to have the proper addiction facilities available for treatment, because the addictions facilities that are being offered in southern jurisdictions, especially Poundmaker's, is very much on the theme of Indigenous people, when they go to addictions. I'm quite familiar with all of these, because I've had Poundmaker's do complete addiction courses and whole things at Salt River, on reserve. They were six weeks long, and a whole team is included, psychiatry, psychologists, and these were all Aboriginal people.
To me, addictions also includes getting into what happens, why they are in this situation, and on-the-land is part of that for the after-care, and I respect the Tlicho Member's statement. I think that on-the-land doesn't have enough monies allocated to it, and I think that's something that should be looked into in future, but in treatment centres, most of the time, most treatment centres have addiction doctors who go there, and they balance the whole thing even with the pills and what is needed to offset some of these addictions. You know, these are big costs and, for the amount of money we spent, I was surprised at how little it was, for 191 people who went, because that would have cost us much more in the long run.
I'm just pointing those out, because I'm always about getting the best for the members of the Northwest Territories, and I want to make sure that the after-care is also in place. I mentioned that yesterday. I'd like to see you think about that, Madam Minister. We had a great discussion on this in past times with all the Aboriginal groups about addictions. We spent a whole day on it one time with all the leaders. It was very informative for me because, like I said earlier in my comments, almost every household, no matter if it's Indigenous or non-Indigenous, no matter of race, no matter of colour, no matter of religion, there is always a problem in almost every family, and it's something that each and every one of us has to face. Anonymity is very important, also. We live in a small territory. Anonymity and privacy are some of the things that we discussed in the last couple of days, and I think that anonymity is extremely important when we make some of these big decisions. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member for Thebacha. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I hear the Member's concern about being anonymous. I mean, right now, there is so much stigma attached to mental health. When people hear about going to treatment and going to get some help, there is that stigma attached. We need to get away from that. We need to start thinking about: how do we rename or how do we get away from people thinking it's wrong to go to treatment? It's not. You're going there for help, and I think that's important. I hear what you're saying. Sorry, Madam Chair. I hear what the Member is saying, and I totally agree.
On-the-land programs are important; they are key. Right now, our department spends $1.8 million with partnerships with Indigenous groups so that they can start to deliver on-the-land programs, and I think that's important. I mean, every Indigenous group in the territory is diverse. We have First Nations, Metis, Inuit, and it's all culturally relevant. They deliver programs based on how they want to heal their residents and their people. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister. Do you have a follow-up question, Member for Thebacha?
No, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Are there any other comments or questions on this section? Mr. Jacobson.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Just on work on behalf of others. Bringing up what my colleague from Monfwi brought up in regard to the healing centres, I know Fort McPherson had Tl'oondih. Inuvik and the Gwich'in, there are two places that we could send people to get help, get healing, and I guess working with that. I've seen so many people, same as him, fall through the cracks in regard to sending them out for treatment. When they come back home, there is nowhere to go. It's a vicious cycle, but it's a cycle of peer pressure and that they make by choice. I think those should be really looked at in regard to trying to help our own people up there, because nothing has been done. Nothing is being done. We could help more people if it's more centralized, say, in the Inuvik area, bring people in from the communities. That's just one of the concerns that I have.
These past few months, with the First Nations and the cancer strategy across our territory, I think what we should be really looking at is: so many people are telling me that they are getting misdiagnosed with cancer. They've been going to the health centre for a year, a year and a half, and they get sent out. They go out to Edmonton, come back, and when they do come back to the community, it's stage 4 cancer. You can't do anything. It's too late. Some of them get stage 2, they did catch it in time, but I'm dealing with a couple of constituents like that. The misdiagnosis is happing too much. I just want to make sure that the Minister is making sure, on behalf of all of our constituents who we serve, and the department, I guess out of Inuvik it would be myself, that the following up of the heading to the Cross Cancer Institute, making sure their appointments are made, especially with this COVID-19 stuff that we have going on, just to follow through. Just a couple of weeks ago, we had one with kidney failure with a misdiagnosis again. It's really tough in our communities, because our health centres do the best that they can to provide the service. We have to rally around that in terms of trying to work together for our constituents to getting them served. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member for Nunakput. That takes us back a few pages, but I am wondering if you would like to respond to that question, Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I hear the Member's concern, and it is very important. Right now, we have a relationship with Alberta as they take a lot of our patients. It is a combination of making sure, when we catch anybody at a certain stage in cancer, that we do our best. That has been our department's approach, to make sure that they get to their appointment as quick as possible. The relationship that we have with Alberta has been doing great. We are trying to make sure that our patients in the Northwest Territories are just as important as the patients in Alberta, and we have that relationship. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister. Do you have a follow-up question, Member for Nunakput?
Thank you, Madam Chair. I just wanted to see, on my first comments in regard to the treatment, if being able to bring it up North, working with the Gwich'in, working with the Inuvialuit, working with communities who want to try to help our own people, is it possible to see if there are any avenues that we could work together, going down that road together? Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member for Nunakput. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I know, in the past, that we have had a lot of treatment programs in our communities. I don't know why they have shut down. That's prior to my time. It is something that we could look at. I do want to say that we provide funding to the Indigenous groups, but we don't tell them how to spend it. When we provide a contribution agreement with them, that's them coming up with their own plan and resources. Most times, they match a lot of our dollars, and they are able to deliver programs that are relevant to them and their culture. We do provide funding; we just don't tell them how to spend it. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Anything further, Member for Nunakput?
Thank you, Madam Chair. No, I think it's time that we do start telling them in regards to how to get treatment, because they're not doing it. It's too much overhead, the costs. The start-up cost is the biggest thing. Like I said, we have two camps up there, three camps, potentially, that closed down due to everything being sent down to Alberta. I am thankful that our territorial government has a good working relationship with Alberta. I am happy for that, that people are being served on a timely basis, but I think it's time that we start taking a look at ourselves within to try to start taking care of ourselves and working together; not just giving them the money and pushing it to the side, thinking it's going to get done, but actually seeing boots on the ground trying to do these programs as a starting point. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member for Nunakput. That's more a comment than a question. Did you want to respond, Minister?
I hear the Member's comment, and I take that as a comment. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister. Any further questions on this section? Member for Hay River South.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm on page 180. Hopefully, I'm on the right page.
You are.
Thank you. This may have been answered yesterday; I had to leave a little bit early. I just want to know: how many people do we have in the South under residential care right now? Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member for Hay River South. Let's see if we get the same numbers today.
[Microphone turned off] ...Deputy Minister Cooper. It's 119.
Deputy Minister, please.
Thank you, Madam Chair. My binder indicates it's 119 adults and 50 children.
That is consistent with yesterday's answer. Good. Further questions, Member for Hay River South?
Thank you, Madam Chair. I had a question from a constituent there a few weeks ago. She has a sister who has been down there for quite a number of years, and whether she's forgotten or whether the government has forgotten about her or not, I'm not sure. Are there any plans to repatriate the people under residential care back to the territories in the South? Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member for Hay River South. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. This is something that our department is looking into. Right now, we have residential care services for those with difficult needs. They have developmental delays. There are complex care needs. We would like to bring them closer to home. Sometimes, the services that we offer are not suitable for them and, therefore, the reason why they are not able to be at home. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister. Member for Hay River South.
