It is.
All right. Anything related to MTS, we'll speak to it once we're done this.
[Microphone turned off]
Thank you, Member for Deh Cho. I'll put you on the list first when we get to the next. Are there further questions in relation to regional operations on pages 239 to 242? Seeing that there are no further questions, please turn to page 240. Infrastructure, regional operations, operations expenditure summary, 2020-2021 Main Estimates, $210,146,000. Does committee agree?
Agreed.
All right. Now, we will move on, starting on page 243, and I'll read off the title. If people have questions to that, once we get to it. The first one is on page 243-244, technology service centre. Are there questions related to that? No questions. Moving on, Public Stores Revolving Fund on page 245. If there are no questions on that, I will move on to page 246, Petroleum Products Revolving Fund. Questions in relation to that? Member for Frame Lake.
Thanks, Madam Chair. If you look at the bottom of the page itself, this fund is in a deficit of a lot of money. What is going on? Why does this fund have such a large accumulated deficit, $1 million? Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. That has to do with the fuel delivery issues of a few years back. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Member for Frame Lake.
Thanks, Madam Chair. If I go back to 2018-2019, it is still at an $850,000 deficit. I'm trying to remember; was that after the fuel delivery problem? Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I do believe that it is still an impact of the missed year and having to fly fuel in. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Member.
Thanks, Madam Chair. If I understand it, the purpose of this was to -- I'm just looking at the top of the page, of course, as well -- try to stabilize the price of fuel in communities and so on. Right now, at one point, you could take a barrel of oil and somebody would pay you $37 to actually take it away. How do we use this fund in a way that tries to stabilize the price for our communities and takes advantage of when oil was really low there for a while? Are we that nimble or quick that we could actually use this money in a way to bring down the cost of fuel in our communities? Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. The fund was set up through the Revolving Funds Act to provide working capital to finance the inventory, the accounts receivable, and the operating expenses required for the distribution of petroleum products. The idea is that the fund would then stabilize prices for the communities. It can significantly fluctuate, so by providing these flexibilities for these pricing guidelines approved by the financial management board and the ability to seek approval for pricing outside the guidelines, in the event of extreme or unforeseen changes in the cost, that's how we end up stabilizing the prices. The variance between the budget from which the components of the fuel prices are charged are based on the actual results. That's why we see a difference there. I am just going to ask if Dr. Dragon has anything that he would like to add to that. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Dr. Dragon.
Thanks, Madam Chair. Yes, in looking at this revolving fund, we purchased approximately 35 million litres of fuel each year. Based on that, we look at how do we transport them, either by marine, which is tug and barge -- that's about 17 million litres of fuel -- and transferring by road, which is tanker truck, so around 14 to 17 million litres of fuel. Again, looking at this fund, we are not trying to make any money off the fund. We are just trying to deliver that fuel and provide it for resupply into the 16 communities that are served by the petroleum products program.
As we look at the price, and in the last session that we had, looking at the price that we buy fuel, typically, we purchase the fuel, it comes in, and then we deliver it all through the North. We actually have to recover that cost of fuel when it was bought at that time. As the Member had mentioned, now we have a reduced price. We would look at buying prices now, at this new price, but until we are able to find that equilibrium of being able to lessen the amount of fuel prices, we are currently working with the Department of Finance to see what options we have in order to take advantage of that. It is something that this group within the fuel division looks at all the time of how we reduce the cost of this fuel to taxpayers because we not only resupply those communities, but we also resupply NTPC and all of the fuel that they have in those communities. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Dr. Dragon. Member for Frame Lake.
Thanks, Madam Chair. I am just trying to figure this out. The day when Texas crude went to negative $37 a barrel, could we actually buy enough on the stock market so that we could give away fuel in the communities? Could we bulk purchase that far in advance? Can we store the stuff somewhere? I have no sense of how this actually works. If the witnesses need to go back and get somebody else to help them answer that, I am fine with getting an answer later. Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. We are currently looking to improve our volume, our capacity of storage for fuel, and we have made some applications for funding for that. I will commit to coming back to the Member with some more information at a later time. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister. Are there any further questions on the Petroleum Products Revolving Fund? Member for Hay River South.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Just going off of what Kevin was saying: what analysis was completed with respect to purchasing the petroleum products at the best possible price? Have we looked at not only taking the fuel down the Mackenzie, but also coming around the coast? I think we talked about rack price before, and I think that price there can go anywhere, depends where you're buying it, from 15 cents up to whatever. I am just wondering: what analysis and how much work did this department actually put into it? Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member for Hay River South. Please talk with either the Member's riding or last name. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. We are very hampered, at times, with our ability to be able to just go and purchase fuel when it is at its cheapest. That would be due to things, like I said, like storage capacity, as well. We have very specific times in which we need to be able to do our resupply. It does make a bit of a difference about when we can go ahead and purchase that fuel. As for your other questions about how much analysis has been done and whether or not alternate routes have been explored, I would have to come back to you with that information. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Member for Hay River South.
I'm good.
Any other questions on Petroleum Products Revolving Act? If not, moving on to Marine Transport Service Revolving Fund, and I will give the floor to the Member for Deh Cho.
Did we switch pages already? Okay. Getting back to my question, we have a resupply down the Mackenzie Valley for the Mackenzie Valley communities that don't have the road system in the summer months. I know that they are being serviced from the Hay River port with the tugs and barges. The Beaufort-Delta, which is up in the Arctic Ocean communities, my question there was: are they being resupplied from the port in Inuvik? I'm wondering the frequency of the deliveries during the summer months, whether we're increasing in the resupply and the resupply of cargo. I guess I'll start with those ones. Mahsi.
Thank you, Member for Deh Cho. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I don't know, specifically, myself, off the top of my head whether or not the resupply of the Beaufort-Delta is from the ocean or whether it's up the Mackenzie. I believe it's up the Mackenzie, but I'm going to ask Dr. Dragon to clarify.
Thank you, Minister. Dr. Dragon.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes. Right now, in terms of the resupply, we've been coming up through Hay River and into all the communities going up all the way up to Inuvik. We are looking at opportunities right now, and it speaks to the question of "Have we looked at other opportunities?" We have in terms of our team looking at where we can purchase fuel. Very important as we look at the purchasing of fuel, making sure that we have the right quality of fuel, and in terms of timing and when we get it into these ports. We have a full sailing schedule that goes from Hay River and then all the way to all those communities up in the North that are available online. We can provide it to the Member, as well. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Dr. Dragon. Member for Deh Cho.
Thanks for that. To me, it seems like it's quite the long trip up the Mackenzie River. There are lots of hours in there, and there is a lot of fuel being burned. I thought we may have learned our lessons from, was it the 2018 fiasco with the fuel resupply? There were lots of comments that it's probably more prudent to have a resupply set setup in Inuvik to supply the Beaufort-Delta communities for fuel and cargo. I'm wondering what the department's thoughts are on that. Mahsi.
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Within the department we are always looking to better optimise our services. I know that the opening of the Arctic Ocean, the Arctic passage is a relatively new thing. There are concerns about shipping through the Arctic, as well. It's definitely something that I know we'll be looking at going forward, and we note the Member's comments. As well, with my other hat on, it's not that department, but ITI is exploring LNG and such within the Beaufort-Delta. My hope is, one day, we will not be sending fuel up the Mackenzie to the Beaufort-Delta. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Member for Deh Cho.
I look forward to that report tomorrow.
--- Laughter
Okay. We'll leave that there. It's in the capable hands of the Minister and her staff. That's something I would really, really want to have considered. It saves a lot of wear and tear and everything all around. It could be beneficial in savings in the future. The Marine Training Centre, I'm not sure if that one is in Fort Smith or Hay River. I'm wondering if it's being used to full capacity with people from the North, and if not, would we look at accepting students from the South? That's all I have on that one, Mahsi.
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. The Marine Training Centre is in Hay River. It's that one there. I just wanted to state that we're not training at the moment because of the COVID situation. It is a training centre for Northerners to create jobs and economic opportunities to support our fisheries and our economic diversification. We've had about 840 various certificate courses offered there in Hay River, Inuvik, and Tuktoyaktuk. Two hundred and fifty-eight students attended the courses in 2018-2019. Five programs had begun as of September 1, 2019, before we had COVID. Approximately 500 Transport Canada certificates have been issued and 350 other certificates, such as those issued by Industry Canada. During the 2019 sailing, six graduates took deckhand positions with the MTS tugboats, four on the operational tugboats and two on the Hay River. Four graduates also took work on the MTS supported Arctic Research Foundation vessel operation on Great Slave. We've had four graduates join the coast guard. Two graduates working on the local ships and two had an opportunity to sail on the ice breakers. At this time, I believe, the centre has actually been doing fairly well from an enrollment standpoint. However, if we were to find that we weren't having Northerners taking those positions I don't see why we wouldn't offer that opportunity to Southerners. That always gets us more people in the North and perhaps they stay, and we get more transfer payments. Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Member for Deh Cho.
No further questions.
Thank you. Member for Hay River South.
Thank you, Madam Chair. The first question I have is with respect to the charters. I noticed that, in 2018-2019, we had a revenue of just over $1 million with expenses of around $1.2 million. Now, in 2020-2021 estimates, we're looking at a revenue of $200,000, and we're looking at charter costs of $422,000. Can you explain to me that difference and maybe give a little background on the charters? Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I think I'll pass this over to Mr. Brennan to answer. Thank you very much.
Thank you, Minister. Mr. Brennan.
