Debates of June 2, 2020 (day 26)

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I think that is in line with what we were already talking about with the fees. I will take that back to the department and just get back to you with an answer. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Member.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I guess I'm going to share a bit of a personal anecdote, here. Last summer, I ran a sailing tour business just kind of on the side, and I did a few thousand dollars in tourism. It was nothing, but I had to pay $500 to get a licence, and then I had to pay about $2,000 to get insurance. Anyone who just wants to start an on-the-side tourism business, really, it doesn't make sense. You either go all in or all out. I think right now our regulations are killing that kind of small tourism operator. For example, right now, if you wanted to start a walking tour in Yellowknife, you would have to pay $500, and then you'd get $1 million insurance, which doesn't make sense. We don't require insurance for any other business licence. For some reason, we created a Tourism Act and we decided to overregulate tourism. My question for the Minister is: can we get rid of the requirement to have the $1 million in public insurance in the regulations? Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I don't know of any business, really, that can operate without some sort of form of insurance. As a very risk-adverse engineer, I am going to say that really scares me, to hear that we would then be entrusting people. I do acknowledge in the case in point, or the example, a walking tour, it does seem somewhat ridiculous. However, I don't anticipate that that case actually comes up very often and that most of our tour operators are taking people in vehicles, they're taking them on the water, they're taking them on the ice, all things that have large amounts of risk involved and do require a certain amount of insurance. I'd love to live in a world with no insurance, but we don't. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I think the Minister would be very surprised at the number of businesses that don't operate with insurance. It's largely up to the business to decide whether to take on that risk or not. There are all sorts of businesses that decide not to have general liability insurance. It's an interesting decision by the GNWT to essentially step in and mandate that these operators have to have insurance. I can see reasons for it in certain cases. Perhaps the Minister can commit to review that section. I think, especially now, there are plenty of tourism operators who are paying very, very expensive insurance premiums that make no sense and probably won't make sense for the next couple of years. I know I have tourism operators who are stuck with insurance bills and no clients. Could I at least have the Minister to commit the requirement that we have everyone having $1 million in public liability insurance be reviewed given the current COVID reality? Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. We definitely can look at that and review. I did just want to point out that we are only one of two jurisdictions in all of Canada that does require tourism licences. The reason we do so, there are a few things. It's not cheap to come and do a tour in the Northwest Territories, so, if we don't have some sort of form of regulating the tourism operators up here, the damage that potentially could happen to our reputation as a destination would be insurmountable, I think, if we were to have people operating willy-nilly. I guess I shouldn't say that anyone who is not operating with insurance is operating willy-nilly, but that is one way that does assure our visitors that there is some measure of safety that is being followed. As well, part of our Tourism Act does require consultation with Indigenous organizations, so that was a way that we could ensure that people were not out on the land, desecrating sites or taking advantage of places where they should not be. I think that the requirement to have the licence in the act is very needed. I do see and acknowledge what the Member is saying. I'm scared when I hear that people are operating without insurance, but you're right, that is an individual's risk to take on, not mine to dictate to them, I guess. In this case, the department felt that it was needed. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member for Yellowknife North.

Thank you, Madam Chair. As you said, only two in Canada have this thing. Most jurisdictions, you have to get your municipal business licence and you go out and run a business. I guess I have no issue with the actual licence. I have the issue with the fact that we are imposing extra costs on small business operators. I think that the duty-to-consult aspect is great. Having a clear record of all our operators is great, and this is a process to do that, but we've essentially put an extra cost for it on small business operators. At some point, any smart business that runs into a requirement to get insurance, whether if you have land, if you have vehicles, if you're on boats, you have the Transport Canada regulations. There is no shortage of other areas regulating this. You can't drive a vehicle without insurance. I think that we have added an extra specific public liability insurance, a very specific type of insurance, and I don't think we really considered that. We just went, "Oh, this is what is required." Once again, given the reality that some of my tour operators have certain insurance for their lodges that may not meet this requirement and then they have to go out and find an additional policy, once again, we're just putting an extra burden on them. I think, going forward, we have to do everything we can to support our northern tour operators. Another question for this section I have is: there are a few million dollars here for tourism. I understand that quite a bit goes to the NWT Tourism Association. One of my issues with the NWT Tourism Association is it does a lot of great marketing work, they do a lot of great work, but their membership doesn't really distinguish between northern companies and southern companies. As the northern tourist industry has grown, a lot of those longstanding southern companies, I think, are starting to unnecessarily and unfairly compete. They have guiding tours that are very specific or certain licences to run, such as hunting and guiding. They already kind of have an advantage. I was hoping if the Minister could commit to looking at how much we spend in tourism that actually goes to northern tourism businesses versus southern tourism businesses. The problem here is that BIP exists, but it doesn't really figure into this entire world and the way we are spending our tourism dollars. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, I definitely will commit to looking at this. There is the argument, and I have had lots of conversations with tourism operators in the last while, of if there is a business and they have an asset in the Northwest Territories, they spend money in the Northwest Territories, they employ Northwest Territories people, and this, again, is a larger conversation we're having in procurement, as well, where is the line of you could have the company owned by the guy in the Northwest Territories who is then hiring everybody out of the South and all the money is flowing out, or you can have it the other way around and you have this southern-owned business that actually is spending and keeping more money in the North. This is the complex situation that I find myself in with both hats on at this point. I commit to reviewing that for the Member. I did just also want to say that, if you do know of operators who have a very small business where the $500 fee is onerous, then have them please come to us and have that conversation. I don't think that there is any reason why, at times, that there couldn't be exceptions made for hard cases. Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I will. The problem is: the examples that I have are probably people when just decided to never get a tourism operator licence. And we all know that, as this legislation came on, there was going to be an education piece and there was going to be slowly walling people in. I think there is a reality that plenty of members especially in the communities are running tourism businesses without licences. I don't want, all of a sudden, us to crack down on them. The person who was just doing a small, part-time thing, all of a sudden, it's not even profitable for them. I think there needs to be a look at that kind of really small, start-up business because that is how tourism businesses start.

In regards to the debate of southern verses northern getting tourism dollars, I get that. I think, probably, the most important factor there is whether they are actually employing northern residents. At some point, I guess it doesn't matter if they are located somewhere else, but if they are simply a business that doesn't hire any northern residents and doesn't reside here, I would like some sort of policy to be in place that preferences our other businesses, recognizing we have that principle in procurement. We have that in the Business Incentive Policy. If the Minister could commit to looking into a policy that would apply that same lens and obviously there is nuance and there is a bit of a debate to how we spend our tourism dollars, I think that would go a long way. Can I get that commitment from the Minister? Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, I commit to looking into whether we can create that policy. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. You have one more? Okay. Short.

All right. I will try and sneak one more in. I know that the Minister is a huge fan of the Geoscience Forum. We have been doing that for 47 years, I believe. I think there is a lot of potential in bringing people to the North for trading convention, tourism. I know even the Dene Nation was looking at getting a huge conference with the First Nations Assembly, which would mean hundreds or thousands of chiefs coming here. I am not quite sure we have the tourism infrastructure to hold those large conferences, but I really do think that, looking at the Geoscience Forum, there is a huge market to tap into in business tourism. If I could get the Minister to direct her department to develop some more strategies and research into how to really take advantage of that business tourism, I would appreciate that. I know some of work has begun. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I think that is actually a really great point. We put on a conference as the engineers, and, for the first time ever, we are like, "Hey, the snow castle's on," and they provided a little bit of a tourism piece for their partners or anyone who came. They were all like, Oh my God, this is fantastic." Even just a small organization taking two seconds to put together a one-pager to say, "These are all the other benefits," and getting that out in time enough so that people can actually extend it onto their business trip, I would say that, in the business circles I run in, I hear that actually quite a bit. A lot of people would come. Then they are like, "I have to bring my partner up to see this," and then they come back as tourists. I think that is an awesome idea and definitely an area that my department should be exploring. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. We will move on to Member for Kam Lake.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I think I am going to fall in line with my colleague from Yellowknife North a little bit. The southern tour operators who operate in the Northwest Territories, do they pay the exact same tour operating licence as members from the Northwest Territories? Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, they do pay the same fee. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. This might be a way for us to be able to distinguish between northern and southern operators and being able to potentially give our northern operators a little bit of an arm up here on their southern counterparts. One of the rumours that I have heard in my constituency is that southern tour operators qualify for ITI funding for business development. I would like to know if this is accurate. Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister

Thank you, Madam Chair. I know with the BDIC loans that we just recently did, the first intake was only northern residents. Then we did have money left after that, so we opened to southern. For that particular instance, yes, they were the same. They are eligible for the tourism product funding. I would say that the answer there would be yes, but we do look at, when we are evaluating the proposals, how much the money is being spent in the North. It's not so much where the owner or the person making the proposal resides. It's about how much of that money is going to be retained in the North and spent on northern contractors and northern procurement. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member.

Thank you very much for that answer. I would like to request potentially being able to sit down with the Minister and discuss this one in greater detail. I have a lit bit of concern about this one and how we are actually ensuring the money stays here and doesn't end up walking away with a southern contractor and also that any monies left over are going to our northern businesses, especially this year. Our northern businesses are suffering right now. They are looking for cash flow to be able to evolve in a new COVID landscape, and it's really important that we can provide that to them.

My next concern is just in regards to something the Minister said where as long as people are not operating, as long as tour operators are not operating, then they don't have to pay their fees this year. If someone has an opportunity to take on a couple families here and there throughout this really difficult time when, really, northern tourism or domestic tourism isn't going to match the dollars they would have had otherwise, I think it would be a kind gesture for us to be able to waive all of the 2020-2021 tour operator licensing fees in order to allow people to take on a couple of people because they are really not going to match the dollars that they would have seen from international tourism this year. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I sent you all an email a few days ago in which we indicated that all of the fees for tourism operators will be waived for the 2020-2021 year, set to zero, actually. We had to change them within the act. They will be set to zero. They will continue to have the licence. If they do want to go out and operate, though, they do have to have their insurance. That is part of the thing. In the meantime, they can continue to keep their licence without having the insurance if they are not operating. I do understand that this might create a little bit of "Is someone going to get their insurance for the five people they may take out on the land?" I would encourage, then, in those case-by-case situations, they come and discuss that with us, with the department. We, of course, would like to see as many people operating and continuing to operate as possible. I commit to having that sit-down with the Member. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I appreciate that. I forwarded that email to a few of my constituents and just wanted to make sure that your comments to the Member for Yellowknife North were in line with that. My next question is in regards to domestic tourism. This year, within the Northwest Territories, we would love for all of our residents to be able to stay in the Northwest Territories and, to the best of people's ability, be able to really explore their own backyards. Has the Department of Industry, Tourism and Investment looked into helping local tourism companies that are able to stay open during this time do some marketing campaigns and really help them get the word out about what people can do in their own backyards? Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. We do fund Northwest Territories Tourism, and they are offering free advertising to local and northern businesses. There are free ads going out. We have allowed Northwest Territories Tourism to take the lead on this. This is their deal, their thing they do and they do quite well. Yes, we are looking at that. We are also looking, honestly, through all of our communications with tourism operators in ways in which we can support them. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Many tour operators throughout the Northwest Territories have seasonal income where they may not have had anything for the first part of the year. Really, they were waiting until right about now to open their doors and be able to start bringing in their income for their families for the entire year. Is there any type of program that ITI is thinking of putting together? Since they have put so much money into tourism in the last decade, is there any type of program they are looking at doing to help tourism operators cover their costs if they have no clientele, they are not opening their doors because it's just not worth it because of the cost associated with opening their doors? What type of programs do you have available for people in that situation? Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Thank you, Madam Chair. CanNor is taking the supporting lead on those types of costs. Of course, any tourism operator can also then apply on the same reliefs any of the businesses can. We have long recognized, and the industry has been telling me over the past couple of months, about the need for a tourism-specific bailout or relief. We're live to that. I have had my colleague here, the Premier, write to the Prime Minister of Canada to ask for specific tourism sector supports. We do recognize that the tourism sector, because they can't make the same type of proof or they don't have the same type of financial situation that a regular business that operates, you know 24/7, 365, that they're falling through those gaps with the federal government programming, and with some of our programming, as well. We recognize this. We're mentioning it, and we're not alone in mentioning it. I would say, at the tourism federal table, all of the provinces and territories are mentioning that the tourism sector is falling through the cracks quite badly, actually, in just the way that they are structured.

There will likely be a Destination Canada marketing campaign starting once the internal borders within Canada start to reopen. The federal government is quite keen on that, which is great for us, because the majority of our visitors and our tourists are from Canada, surprisingly. People may think that Asia is our largest market, but it's not; it's domestic tourism. So that's actually a good thing for us, going forward.

We do recognize that there is a gap that's not being filled at times, so what I would like to ask is that you continue, and you are, as the rest of the Members are, to identify those gaps to us so that we can look to fill them and support them. I would say, please, if any of your constituents are at a point of failure of their business, have them just reach out to the regional office directly and we'll look for where we can find supports to help them. We don't want to see businesses failing. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member.

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. My final question for the Minister today is just: how has COVID affected your five-year tourism plan? Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister.

Is this the one where I should just kind of toss it out the window? No, I shouldn't make jokes. Obviously, the new one is we're going to pivot, right? We have to figure out how we're going to change our strategy. Clearly, we're going to have to make some changes around our marketing. Will we be focusing the marketing dollars into the Asian market? We are going to have concerns with, as other international borders start opening up and ours doesn't, we are going to lose our aurora tourism, likely, to other jurisdictions. The department is very live to this. We're having those conversations. We are discussing as much as we can with the Chief Public Health Officer on the ways that we can have the tourism sector start reopening again, and not just to people from Yellowknife or regional places moving around, or other centres, but actually getting to where we could bring people in from the South again, such as, perhaps, outfitters bringing people in where they go straight into the bush, they don't interact with Northwest Territories residents, they have their own emergency response and Medevac plan in plan that doesn't impact ours.

So those are sorts of scenarios that we're looking to explore, hopefully, and in conjunction with the Chief Public Health Officer, as to whether or not we can come up with scenarios where we can have people operate safely. That actually also has a lot of implications in the exploration sector, because exploration camps are very similar to tourism camps. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Member. Anything short?

Maybe it's a very short question. Has the Minister considered in any of their tourism discussions making Yellowknife an international airport? Thank you.

Thank you, Member. Minister.