Thank you, Mr. Schauerte. Member for Frame Lake.
Thanks, Madam Chair. This is going to be the last comment for me. I am hoping that the Premier is listening because I do not know what the problem is with departments bringing forward legislation. Yes, 14 years to develop changes to the Property Assessment and Taxation Act, four-plus years for bringing the amendments to the Access to Information and Protection of Privacy Act to cover municipal governments, even start with the city, towns and villages, this is just totally unacceptable. I just do not understand why we as a government cannot move forward with legislation more quickly. I got elected here to make change, but that change relies on the other side of the House actually bringing forward legislation. Fourteen years is just totally unacceptable; four-plus years for the Access to Information and Protection of Privacy Act, unacceptable. I just do not know what else I can say. Premier, you have got to go out and find the resources to get the departments moving on this legislation moving forward. Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member for Frame Lake. Minister of MACA, did you have any comments?
Thank you, Madam Chair. I hear my colleagues on the other side. We need to see these legislations come forward and the significant changes to be made. I will be providing a summary and an update and looking at the phased-in approach that we have planned within the department, and I will look at the presentation to committee. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Do we have any other questions from Members for Municipal and Community Affairs, directorate? Seeing none, please turn to page 339. Municipal and Community Affairs, directorate, operations expenditure summary, 2021-2022 Main Estimates, $3,942,000. Does committee agree?
Agreed.
Thank you, committee. We will now go to public safety, beginning on page 342, with information items on page 345. Member for Great Slave.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I am looking at the 911 program funding on page 345. I note that it sits at $1.24 million, the revised estimates from last year, where this was the same. There is no increase to the funding for 911, despite conversation back in October session. I look at the actuals for 2019-2020, and there is already a $1.7-million line item there, so already within the estimates we know we are under, $500,000 underfunded. Then when I look back at revenues for 911, there is a significant discrepancy between the $397,000 collected in 2019-2020 on page 328 versus the $1.027 million estimated for the upcoming year. Could the department please explain discrepancies in these numbers? Thank you.
Thank you, Member. Minister of MACA.
Thank you, Madam Chair. There was a review that was done and a report, I believe, that was submitted and completed in November. I will just have Ms. Eleanor Young reply. [Microphone turned off]
Deputy Minister Young.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Sorry. I think I have just confused the Minister when I was looking over. We did submit our annual report in the fall, which is a requirement under the act. When we presented earlier to committee, we spoke about doing an evaluation this year to inform future changes, so although the Member is correct, you are noting that we have spent more than what the budget is there. We have been dealing with staff shortfalls through variance at this point in time, until we can complete the evaluation and determine exactly what the staff requirements are to be able to go forward. The plan is to complete an evaluation and come back with the results of that evaluation to inform what the appropriate level of funding to ongoing staffing for the 911 would be. At the current time, the department is managing this through variance, and that's what you're seeing in the main estimates versus the actual expenditures. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Deputy Minister. Member for Great Slave.
Thank you for that explanation. I think that the hiring of relief staff, I'm not really sure how much you need to analyze the fact that you need relief staff and you need to have other management requirements that are not currently being met, so I'm not really sure that another study on what is lacking, it's my understanding the department actually has quite a good understanding of what's missing in this department, from a staffing requirement. Has the department looked at potentially moving Med Response out of 911, since there seems to be a lack of communication or working together there, over to 811 to start the implementation of a public safety department and, instead, transferring the $1 million that Med Response gets to 911 to properly fund it? Is that something that the department has looked at? Thank you.
Thank you, Member. Minister of MACA.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I will have Deputy Minister Eleanor Young respond. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Deputy Minister Young.
Thank you, Madam Chair. At this point, Med Response is a department of health-funded portion, so that isn't part of my budget and something that I would have the conversation about. Obviously, as part of the evaluation, the operating model will be part of what we'll be looking at and whether that is working, moving forward. I know that we've described the differences between what is currently in 811 versus what 911 does, and 811, whether that continues past the COVID arrangement, again, is a conversation. I think we all need to understand what the go-forward is for 911/811 to be able to make a fully informed decision.
The Member is correct. We have a lot of good information about what we need, but we also need to be able to put all of this into a well-thought-out paper about what ongoing needs are. We've had relief staff, but some of those have been related to COVID and other pressure points that may not be there in a normal year. We do have to be able to understand what the driving costs are to be able to inform the Members of the Assembly on what the cost requirements are. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Deputy Minister. Member for Great Slave.
Thank you for that, and I do appreciate the department is working on this. I'm not trying to say that's not the case. When I look at the budgets and we're asked to approve three times the amount of money for 811, which is only expected to go for the next eight months of the year, and that is looking to decline, to me, I would rather see us approving $1 million for 811, knowing it's the one that is going to phase out, versus us underfunding 911 right now and saying we're going to give all this extra money to 811, which might free up and then become available. Then again, it goes back to the general revenues and essentially is not guaranteed to go back to 911. I'm going to have a really hard time voting to approve a $3-million budget for 811 when you are only approving, what is the final number, $1.2 million for 911 when you already know it's $500,000 underfunded. As well, I think you've grossly overestimated the revenues, and I really kind of wonder at how that number ends up here at one point something million when you've only collected $400,000 before. More of a comment. They can respond.
Thank you, Member for Great Slave. Minister of MACA, did you have any comments? No? Thank you. Did you have any further questions? Are there any other questions from Members? Member for Kam Lake.
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. On page 344, there is ground ambulance and highway rescue. The budgeting numbers are the same every year, and the description on that is: "To enhance capacity in the areas of ground ambulance and highway rescue." In different conversations through different committees that we've been able to have with different community groups, ground rescue is something that has come up frequently as a concern for communities, especially ones based on busy highway systems. We've got Behchoko that's on a busy highway system; we've got Hay River, as well, that ends up supplying people for different highway rescues. We often hear, also, of different things that happen in the Beaufort-Delta and sometimes people having to be loaded into the back of a pickup truck in order to get to much-needed medical services. I'm wondering, given that this number hasn't changed, is it going to be able to expand or enhance the ground ambulance and highway rescue capabilities of our remote northern communities? Thank you.
Thank you, Member. Minister of MACA.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Looking at the numbers that are here, there are not any changes there, but it does have a different approach. We're looking at the community of Inuvik and also the community of Hay River, as well, and looking at Behchoko, and it does entail a different approach. I'll have Ms. Eleanor Young just elaborate on that. It's different throughout the territory. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Deputy Minister Young.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, the Minister is correct. In some communities, the ambulance system is provided by health. In other communities, it's provided by the community government, so we are dealing with different needs in different communities. The budget that the Member is referring to is an application-based program which is a support program. It doesn't fully cover the costs. It's a program for training and small equipment needs that the department has had for a number of years, and the department is very close to coming back forward with a more fulsome conversation on ground ambulance and highway rescue. It has been also tied to the conversation about Ingraham Trail and what emergency services are provided outside community boundaries, the cost of those, and how to pull all of that together into a department-supported initiative more fully. We are hopeful to be back in front of you with a more detailed approach on how we're going to move forward with this in the near future. What's here in the budget is just the current grant program until we have that broader conversation about where we go more comprehensively with ground ambulance, highway rescue, and emergency services. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Deputy Minister. Member for Kam Lake.
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. No, I look forward to that review and to a report or a proposal coming forward. Just looking at the $185,000, that divided by 33 communities, which I know is probably not divided evenly. Even so, that's just over $5,000 per community, and so it won't go very far and probably doesn't go even as far as communities would like it to go. I definitely welcome that, and I would like to request that, as part of that report, if possible, it include cell service on our highways. That's something that we discuss quite a bit. I know that is a Department of Finance item, but I think that that also plays a huge role in public safety for people to be able to access things like 911. We can't control what portion of the highway, unfortunately, we have devastating accidents on, and so people being able to access life-saving support is crucial. If cell service can be included in that, it would be much appreciated. Thank you.
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for your comment. I'm looking at the extension of cell services among the highways that we do have. I also think about the winter roads that we do have throughout the territory, but looking at spot devices and OnStar satellite phones, we look at those land lines and cellular connections. It's limited throughout the territory. The department does work with residents to try to find an alternative solution, but it's not something that we really -- we don't fund those approaches, but then we try to educate and work with residents on finding alternative solutions in the time being. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Member for Kam Lake.
Thank you very much, Madam Chair. No, I appreciate that there are different systems out there. I think what I'm asking for the Minister to do is to lobby her colleague at the Department of Finance to put in some added cell towers and make cell service accessible on all of our highways. Thank you.
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I will have that conversation with my colleague. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Are there any further questions? Member for Yellowknife North.
Thank you, Madam Chair. As is my favourite question: can I have an update from the Minister on the status of fire services for the Ingraham Trail? Thank you.
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. This is the famous question that I've been getting a lot of comments on, looking at the approach that we're going to be taking with the Ingraham Trail. I will have Mr. Schauerte respond. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister. Mr. Schauerte.
Thank you, Madam Chair. We are very close on finalizing an engagement approach for residents on the Ingraham Trail and line up our communication materials on this. We also know that this is not just about Ingraham Trail, that emergency services outside municipal boundaries is something of interest in many communities in the Northwest Territories. Our communication, our engagement approach, I anticipate that it will include opportunities for all residents to be in on this issue.
Our intention is, in the month of March as we sort of put the finalizing T's on our engagement documents, is to go out and use a variety of tactics to talk to residents in the month of March. We are recognizing that large, in-person gatherings or focus groups or those kind of things may be certainly challenging in the current environment, so we're looking for IT solutions and those kind of things as well as opportunities for residents to contact us directly on this issue.
Following that, we expect to be putting together some type of summary document. I would expect that to happen in the late spring after we've completed our engagement. Essentially, what we want to do is go out there and talk to the residents about the type of options that may be available for emergency services. I would preface this by saying that emergency services on the Ingraham Trail appear to be a very costly option, so there are no easy solutions with this topic. We're not quite sure what we're going to hear from the residents on this. Suffice to say, we will take their feedback and come forward with a recommend approach of how we ought to be approaching this kind of service in that area.
Again, we're mindful that any approaches that we identify through this exercise, we would strive to at least try to see that these are replicatable in other areas of the NWT, so we're mindful of that, as well. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm going to read from Hansard where the Minister has repeatedly said, "I am confident that we will reach something by that deadline," that deadline being April 1st. I recognize there are needs outside of all of the territories. I fully support us finding those agreements with every single municipality that has to provide services outside of a boundary. In this case, people's insurance is either going to either expire or go up on April 1st. I have repeatedly said that the only possible solution now, given we have about five weeks, and I don't even know if it is possible given that the city's timelines and how their services work would be in agreement with the City of Yellowknife. Are we going to have an agreement with the City of Yellowknife to continue fire services on an interim basis by April 1st? Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member. Minister of MACA.
Thank you, Madam Chair. This is a conversation that is happening currently, but I don't want to put anybody to commitment. The conversations are happening. We are very cautious of April 1st and looking at the fire services that the city no longer wants to provide to Ingraham Trail. We're looking also at the financial implications that this may have for residents within the Ingraham Trail and maybe, possibly, residents outside, and how are we going to pay for the service? Looking at the numbers, we're going to have to be combining and putting that together, but also recognizing, this is outside of the municipal boundary, and looking at the training and the equipment and all that needs to be entailed with the fire services. There was also the conversation of having fire services provided out of Dettah for Ingraham Trail, as well, but we also looked at the timing of a fire rescue, the time that it would take to get out there, the training, the commitment, the equipment. We're working with Ingraham Trail, and like Mr. Schauerte had said is that we're looking at the consultation to happen with the people that are at Ingraham Trail right now. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Member for Yellowknife North.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm going to quote again, the Minister's answer. "There was consultation that was just recently completed. I should be able to provide an update to the Member by the end of February." We're in the last week of February here, and I'm hearing that an engagement plan is just going to be started and then we will consult. Can I get the Minister to correct the record? Was there actually any consultation with residents of the Ingraham Trail? Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, that is a correction. There was no engagement that had been done yet, and I will have Gary just elaborate on where we are for that current status. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Mr. Schauerte.
Thank you, Madam Chair. It is our intention to go out and publicly engage with residents during the month of March with some idea of where we want to go in April with a recommended approach. Thank you, Madam Chair.
