Thank you. I will now open the floor for general comments. Do any Members have any general comments before we begin the departmental summaries? Member for Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.
Marsi cho, Mr. Chair. There was a lot of work that went into this. A lot of staff put a lot of time into this, and as the Minister mentioned, it was a collaborative effort, a lot of moving parts. Like I said, it wasn't just any one Member. It was all of us working together. I am very, very proud that we moved forward with this. Again, you always hear the media say things about backroom deals. There was nothing like that done here. It was all very open. We had a certain amount of commitment. Of course, there is always going to be compromise. Not everybody is going to get what they want. This job is very difficult. You can't make everybody happy. We're not dry meat. Going back, it was a collaborative effort. I am very proud. I don't have much else to say. I don't have anything prepared. I am speaking from the heart here. I am really, really proud of the work that we have done as a whole. Marsi cho, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I, too, want to extend a lot of thanks to my colleagues on this side of the House for the work that we did together looking at the main estimates. People often just don't know how much work goes on behind the scenes here. We don't really do a very good job explaining this, but we met and reviewed the main estimates department by department with Ministers and their staff over a period of a couple of weeks. Then we had to work together as regular MLAs to figure out what we thought was missing or could be improved in the budget. There is an immense amount of work that goes on behind the scenes. I want to compliment my colleagues for us working together on our side of the House.
As much as it takes this side of the House to get its act together, we also have to thank our colleagues on the Cabinet side and particularly the Minister of Finance for the leadership and the negotiations to achieve these gains for all our residents. I know often the Minister said that she was the messenger on behalf of her Cabinet colleagues, but there was a lot of effort behind the scenes to work with the Minister of Finance to try to get a better understanding on some of these issues like midwifery or Indigenous patient advocates, what was going on already within the departments, and whether we needed to push a little bit harder to perhaps get a resolution on some of these issues. Once again, my sincere thanks to the Minister of Finance and all our colleagues on the Cabinet side.
Look, I sat through the last Assembly. This did not happen in the last Assembly. I want to give you every bit of assurance that this is a different way of doing business and a much-improved way of doing business. This is really how consensus government can and should work. I really want to compliment my colleagues on the other side for their efforts in doing this collectively. I think we achieved a lot in terms of the capital budget, as well, in the previous main estimates. This one, I think, was a really extraordinary effort on everybody's part to try to work together. I hope the media is listening and they do pick up on this, that there have been extraordinary gains for all of our residents with the additions that we've worked together on. Of course, we'll be back in May-June to formalize all that. Once again, thanks to our side of the House, colleagues working together and with our Cabinet colleagues to get this important set of results for our citizens. Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Member for Great Slave.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's a bit of a hard act to follow when my colleague is getting thumps from the Cabinet side. I do agree that, being on this side of the House now, it's an interesting process to go through. I have to admit to not paying so much attention to it as a Minister because the lovely Minister of Finance would take care of that generally. I'm really happy to see that we have been listened to. We've been able to get some concessions around some things around social supports and such, and I believe the Cabinet really listened to us there. My only comment that I want to make further is that it's great to say we're going to put money somewhere but now it's the execution of getting that money out the door. While it's great that we can say we've got so many dollars here and there, if we don't spend it, it's just lip service. I commit to working with my colleagues there on the other side to get that money spent, and I'm sure we know we'll hold them accountable if they don't. Thank you.
Thank you, Member. Member for Thebacha.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I, too, would like to thank the Members from Cabinet and especially the Minister of Finance for listening to the colleagues on this side of the House. I appreciate the phase 2 of the midwifery program. I think that's a very important part of our traditional way because everyone was born at home in the early years, and now, that hasn't been happening to a great extent. I really appreciate that, and I, too, want to thank everybody for working together because I think that's what consensus government is all about. The relationship that we have with Cabinet as ordinary Members is also extremely important, and it shows that consensus government can work. With that, I want to just say thank you to my colleagues and to all Members of Cabinet and the Premier. Thank you.
Thank you, Member. Any further comments? Not seeing any, does the Minister of Finance wish to bring witnesses into the House?
[Microphoned turned off]
Thank you. Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort the witnesses into the Chamber. Would the Minister please introduce the witness?
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have Sandy Kalgutkar, deputy minister of Finance.
Thank you. Committee, we have previously deferred the matter of consideration of the departmental summaries. Members, please turn to page 21 of the tabled document. Education, Culture and Employment, operations expenditures, total department, 2021-2022 Main Estimates, $353,599,000 Does the committee agree?
Agreed
Thank you, committee. We will continue with the departmental summary for Environment and Natural Resources on page 69. Environment and Natural Resources, operations expenditures, total department, 2021-2022 Main Estimates, $97,874,000. Does committee agree?
Agreed.
Thank you. Committee, we will continue with the departmental summary for Executive and Indigenous Affairs on page 109. Executive and Indigenous Affairs, operations expenditures, total department, 2021-2022 Main Estimates, $22,428,000. Does the committee agree?
Agreed.
Thank you. Committee, we will continue with the departmental summary for Finance on page 137. Member for Frame Lake.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. Now that I got all that nice stuff off my chest, I have a few tougher questions for the Minister of Finance. I'm looking at page 135, it's the revenue summary. When I look down at taxation, there is the listing for corporate income tax for 2021-2022 seems to be a negative $8.4 million. Does that mean we are shelling out $8.4 million, we're giving it back to corporations? What does this figure really mean? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. These numbers, all of the numbers with respect to taxes, are generated by the Canada Revenue Agency, so this is a reflection of the fact that as corporate income taxpayers would be paying incrementally over the course of the year based on estimates that are generated often from the year before and not necessarily on what their final actuals for the year might be. When the final numbers come in, the CRA then will, perhaps after the fact, determine what they have been remitting to the GNWT maybe beyond or above what, in fact, will be paid in by the corporations. That's what this is a reflection of. It's money that we will now be owing back to the Department of Finance Canada for overpayment in light of the estimates that were given being above what the actuals turned out to be. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Member.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. If I wasn't confused before. Are we getting any corporate taxes then in 2021-2022, or are we giving a whole bunch of money back to corporations? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. If I might turn this one over to the deputy minister, please.
Deputy Minister.
[Microphone turned off] …Mr. Chair. We are, in fact, getting corporate income tax revenues as we always do from Finance Canada. The 2021 estimate that just happens to be less than the amount the Finance Cabinet is clawing back due to overpayments from previous fiscal years. That's what is showing up as negative. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Member.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. What I'm trying to reconcile is: clearly corporate income tax is not a great way to try to finance a government, especially when it's bouncing up and down. Look at what was predicted main estimates in the current year, $25 million, and then we're only going to get $1.9 million in the current year? I know the pandemic and so on is going on, but this just doesn't seem to be a very reliable way to, or a completely unpredictable way to get revenues for the government. What is the Minister doing to try to stabilize the revenue side of the equation in some kind of predictable way? I want to give the Minister credit for the Government Renewal Initiative as a way to try to better manage our expenditures moving forward, but what are we doing to try to stabilize the revenues? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Certainly, given on the corporate side, there are three large pairs that make up a high proportion of the total corporate income taxes that are coming in to the GNWT. When that particular industry, when the diamond industry suffers a significant loss, that is going to have a significant impact on this line item, even though it is only, as I say, a handful of businesses and all in one sector. Arguably, one solution to that would be is to have greater diversity in the economy so that we're not so reliant on one particular sector and even a sector within that sector, and secondarily would be to expand the number of those companies that are paying. Again, having growth not only in diversity but simply a growth in a number of companies and corporations that are, in fact, paying the corporate income tax now.
All that said, it's much more easily said than done to actually expand an economy. It's not necessarily something that the Government of the Northwest Territories or any government itself it can do on its own. It depends very much on factors outside, but what we can try to do is create conditions and create an environment that supports and contributes and inspires diversification of the economy and supports the establishment of more small businesses that can hopefully grow into medium-sized businesses and also encourage investment so that, by doing those things, we then get diversification that will help stabilize overall revenues. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Member.
Thanks, Mr. Chair, and thanks for that. There're a few options there. I think I've got a few other options that the Minister should consider, as well, like a resource tax or a production-based royalty. If we turn over to ITI, of course, further into the budget, and I'm not going to ask questions on that one because I've already exhausted those before, but we do know that this year, we're going to get zero royalties from diamond mining. Next year, I think it's predicted at $1.5 million. We've got to find a way to stabilize these revenues and make them more based on production rather than when they decide to sell them and so on because two of the three diamond mines remained opened during the pandemic and so on. In any event, my suggestion to the Minister is that we find ways to stabilize these revenues in ways that are based more on production than on profit and sales. That's what I would do if I was the Finance Minister.
I have one last question for the Minister which is: are these sorts of issues going to be part of the discussion for the next budget in the revenue options paper that the Minister has committed to make public and the kind of discussions she intends to have as part of the preparation of the next budget. Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just today, started having conversations with communications around the setup for this spring and summer's budget dialogues or budget engagements. Yes, there will be more. Again, revenue options will form part of that. It was tremendous to me the benefit that we had last summer of doing the budget dialogues and hearing directly from different industries and those who are experts in their own industries about what they were hoping to see, and what would work or not work.
The simple answer is to say, yes. We will have the revenue options portion to add to the dialogues, to the engagement, and we'll need to hear back from those who are both in the industry but also in the non-for-profit sector in the city, in municipal governments, different spectrums across the Northwest Territories, and can hear more at that point where the people of the Northwest Territories would like to see themselves falling in terms of possibilities for revenue options and revenue generation. Certainly, Mr. Chair, the committee will see that presentation before it becomes finalized. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Member.
Thanks, Mr. Chair, and thanks to the Minister for that. I appreciate it, and I look forward to hearing what the public has to say in terms of the revenue side of the equation because I just don't think we've paid enough attention to it. I did neglect to mention one other thing. We need a new arrangement with the federal government where we get to keep more of our source revenues. We've got to start to cut those apron strings from Ottawa and find ways to become more self-sufficient, and that, as I said, means a new fiscal arrangement with Ottawa where we get to keep all or a greater portion of our own source revenue. I think that needs to be something that I would want my Cabinet colleagues to focus on, as well, moving forward. I will certainly be pushing in that direction. That's all I've got. Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. A note of caution that, of course, 85 percent of our budget comes from the federal government, so while I'm certainly always going to look for ways to better streamline what money we get and how we can spend it so that we have the flexibility to do things according to our priorities, that, at the same time, the deal that we have, just to be cautious that we aren't looking for greener grass that might not actually be so green. That said, we can't figure out these ideas without having the conversations, and so point taken that those conversations continue to be had. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Seeing no further questions, Finance, operations expenditures, total department 2021-2022, $301,826,000. Does the committee agree?
Agreed.
Thank you. Committee, we will continue with the departmental summary for Health and Social Services on page 169. Health and Social Services, operation expenditures, total department 2021-2022 Main Estimates, $596,784,000. Does the committee agree?
Agreed.
Thank you. Committee, we will continue with the departmental summary for Industry, Tourism and Investment on page 203. Industry, Tourism and Investment, operation expenditures, total department, 2021-2022 Main Estimates, $59,989,000. Does the committee agree?
Agreed.
Thank you. Committee, we will continue with the departmental summary for Infrastructure on page 231. Infrastructure, operation expenditures, total department, 2021-2022 Main Estimates, $278,894,000. Does the committee agree?
Agreed.
Thank you. Committee, we will continue with the departmental summary for Justice on page 271. Justice, operations expenditures, total department, 2021-2022 Main Estimates, $133,753,000. Does committee agree?
Agreed.
