Thanks, Madam Chair. So I think I what I can take from our guest is that we're just setting up the system now and that we'll have a clearer sense, I don't know a year from now, of what some of the reasons are for the large carryovers that we're incurring; is that I guess what I'm hearing? Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, there's a number of reasons why there'd be carryovers, and I think the goal right now is that rather than having each and every department provide the rationale or the reason, you know, department by department comes to MBS. MBS is going to be creating a system whereby it will be more uniformed so that it can be reported back to the to this Chamber in a way that, you know, again, is well, is more uniform and so that rather than, you know, having taking a bit of the subjectivity out of it and being able to report back more clearly so that if there are in fact trends across the whole of government, that those can be identified more readily. As it is right now, and I am certainly conscious of time but I can certainly speak to some broad thoughts on why there are sometimes large carryovers on, particularly on the large projects which is then what leads to the large dollar sums that are there. And I think those trends some of those trends are already apparent. But what we'd like to do is, again, provide a method and a methodology of reporting that is more clear and more uniform. Thank you.
Okay, thanks, Madam Chair, and thanks to the Minister for that. I guess this gets back to some of the reasons why I actually voted against the capital budget, because I just felt it was unrealistic and there was I think almost half of the money in the capital budget was a carryover from the previous year, and I just felt that there's no way we're actually going to be able to get all this money out the door during a pandemic, and I'm concerned about getting some of this money out the door even in this sup as well. So, yeah, until we get a better tracking system and a more realistic capital budget that doesn't overspend, in my humble opinion, I have difficulty approving some of these items. But I do understand the need for some of this work to carry on, and I think that's all I've got to say for now. Thanks, Madam Chair.
All right. So we'll move to supplementary estimates. Supplementary Estimates, (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 1, 20212022. Department of Education, Culture and Employment, operations expenditures, total department, not previously authorized, $2,566,000. Does committee agree? Thank you.
Thank you. Committee will now consider the Department of Infrastructure on page 7. Supplementary Estimates, (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 1, 20212022, Department of Infrastructure, operations expenditures, asset management, not previously authorized, $2,208,000. Questions? Member for Great Slave.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm just curious, then, if the department or the Minister can speak a little bit to, was there any incurred or extra incurred costs as a result of deferring maintenance on some of these projects? And if so, would the additional costing be included in this 2.2, or would there be potentially further additional costs down the road? Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I would propose to send that over, I think, probably to Mr. Courtoreille to speak to.
Thank you, Madam Chair. The amounts presented in the proposed in the carryover document do not include any additional costs for future periods. Thank you.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm done.
Yes, thank you, Madam Chair. Could we just get some more information on what the deferred maintenance projects that weren't completed were and why. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Madam Chair, yes, for that level of detail, again, I'm going to send that to, if I might, to Mr. Courtoreille, please.
Thank you, Madam Chair. We don't have a detailed list of all the projects that are being proposed for carryover. This portion of the deferred maintenance is under the operations expense. So these are typically small maintenance projects less than $50,000. Thank you, ma'am.
Yeah, thank you, Madam Chair. I guess this is just a comment for Finance and Infrastructure. I believe the last time I asked about our deferred maintenance deficit, it was about $462 million of deferred maintenance to get our assets up to par. I just don't understand when we have such a massive deficit, and the Department of Infrastructure has consistently, you know, stated that they need more money for deferred maintenance and if we're going to get our assets up, we need to be maintaining them. I fully support that. I just it becomes harder to navigate the Financial Management Board and through committee and through the Legislative Assembly to get more money for deferred maintenance if you let it lapse, and especially on these smaller projects. I don't understand how we're not getting this money out the door when our deferred maintenance budget is so enormously large. So, yeah, just a comment there to make sure we're maintaining our assets, because it only costs us a lot more money in the long run. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Madam Chair, thank you. So there is a standing amount for deferred maintenance but, you know, a concern being raised on that regard, I would suggest perhaps a comment from the Minister of Infrastructure.
Thank you, Madam Chair. You know, I know the Member had mentioned this in a previous Assembly, and we talked about deferred maintenance programming. Yes, we have a high number of deferred maintenance and within some of our assets, you know, we look at some of the things that we're doing going forward as the Department of Infrastructure. The ongoing assessments are to be completed so we could determine the work plan for some of the upcoming years. We are in the process of developing an asset condition report card to be able to provide annual reporting on, you know, any of our assets and how we look at some of our deferred maintenance and, you know, just looking back to some of the maintenance. There are, you know, valid reasons to be able to to look at, you know, lengthy timelines for environmental assessments, consultation engagement process, procurement issues, and that's something the Department of Finance and Infrastructure are working on. And, you know, I'm not going to use up the Member's time talking about all the different reasons for some of our valid reasons for carry forward other than those are just to name a few. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Supplementary Estimates, (Infrastructure Expenditures), No.1, 2021-2022, Department of Infrastructure, operations expenditure, asset management, not previously authorized, $2,208,000. Does committee agree? Okay.
Supplementary Estimates, (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 1, 20212022, Department of Infrastructure, operations expenditures, programs and services, not previously authorized, $8,046,000. Member for Great Slave.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I'm just curious I know that the Inuvik wind project was somewhat delayed or had been uncertain at one point of whether it was going to go forward, I don't know what the best way to phrase that is. So that would probably have resulted obviously in this lapse or this continuation. I'm just curious to know how often can this money continue to be carried over from year to year under the ICIP funding which perhaps I should know as a former Infrastructure Minister. But could it continue on and what is the likelihood of the Inuvik wind project continuing on and being completed in a timely manner in which case we wouldn't be worried about lapses of funding. Thank you.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I don't know the specifics on that. Perhaps I'll turn it over to but the Minister of Infrastructure might.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, the projects the ICIP for this project ends in 2027; my gosh, I wish it were done then. 20272028. And you know, each year, Madam Chair, we do get permission from Canada to be able to do some of these carry forwards, and with that, we're able to justify some of the reasons and rationales on, you know, the struggles we did have about, you know, trying to proceed ahead with the Inuvik wind project and, you know, trying to engage the community and form the partnerships to be able to do some of this work. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I'm really glad to hear about the timeframe. And again, I probably should have known that and I also wish it was done in 2017 as well. I guess I just have questions a little bit about the $500,000 amounts for the two other funding pots there. I'm just curious to know if those were the contributions to get the dollars out of the federal government. Is that our the NWT contribution amount? Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I'm quite confident Mr. Courtoreille knows the answer to that, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Madam Chair. The 500,000 proposed to carry over for those two projects is inclusive of GNWT money and federal money. It's to encompass work expected to be completed in the 20212022 fiscal year. Thank you.
Thanks, Madam Chair. I remember sitting in the Chamber in August of 2019 when the House approved, I didn't agree with it, money for the Whati transmission line. Have we actually spent any money on this? Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, obviously if there was some carryover is required there's certainly some work yet to be done. Neither the Minister nor I were here in August of 2019, but I'd suggest, perhaps, if the Minister of Infrastructure can provide some update as to the status of the project that might be the place to go.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, so, you know, you look at the Whati transmission line and, you know, some of the how it aligns under our 2030 energy strategy and, you know, it is a priority for this government to be able to look at some alternative energy solutions. And, yes, we did spend some money and, you know, we did some technical studies. We did review and update preliminary environmental studies, looking at additional traditional knowledge and some of the land use studies as well. So, yes, Madam Chair, we did do some work on this transmission line. Thank you.
Thanks, Madam Chair. Can I get a commitment out of the Minister to provide a list of the studies, their cost, and could she make the studies available if I ask for them? On a confidential basis, of course. Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, not knowing exactly the entirety of the studies, I'll certainly commit to get a list of what exactly has been done and confirm if there is some reason that they can't be made publicly or made confidentially available, I will provide an explanation as to why.
Thanks, Madam Chair. Yes, one of the issues that I had with the Whati transmission line back in 2019, and remains so today, is for the cost of the project and I tabled documents in the last Assembly showed for the cost of doing the Whati transmission line, you could actually get mini hydro in three Tlicho communities for about the same cost. So why would we build this huge transmission line to one community when we could actually get sustainable alternative energy in three different communities? I just don't get it. Can the Minister tell me whether any analysis has been done around that. Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Madam Chair. So again, Madam Chair, I can't speak to what may or may not have been presented by the Member back in 2019. I can say that the Tlicho Government, I understand, is in support of this transmission project and it certainly is a part of the priorities of this government to make sure we are working with Indigenous governments when typically on projects that are on Indigenous lands. And, you know, I'm not sure where the disconnect is between the information that's available. So perhaps in those studies, it may well answer those questions. The information I have available to me is that in fact transmission will be much more durable and last many times much longer than what the mini hydro would which certainly factors in in terms of the costing. As well as in terms of the operations and maintenance costs, that it's much easier and much cheaper to maintain. And certainly can set the stage for other projects in the region that are hydrobased. So, you know, Madam Chair, I'll pause there. And if certainly, if there's more detail that we would like to get into on the specifics of the project in the review of this, I'm welcome to another question and I can turn it back to the Minister of Infrastructure. Thank you.
Thanks to the Minister for that level of detail. Kind of hard for me to understand why mini hydro would be any less durable or last less time than a big hydro project like Snare which actually requires a massive investment to replace turbines and all kinds of stuff. And your technical folks will know way more about the work that's required in the Snare system to keep it going, because that was built in the 1940s and is going to require a massive investment to modernize and update it again. So, yeah, if there is any more detailed work that's been done to you know, do some sort of comparison between mini hydro versus building a huge oversized transmission line to one community, I would love to see that. So can I get a commitment out of the Minister to search their archives and find out if that kind of analysis was actually done and share the information. Thanks, Madam Chair.
Madam Chair, this is going to be studies and information done by expertise within Infrastructure so I'll turn it back to the Minister of Infrastructure again, please.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I didn't hear it turned over to me but I would be quite happy to answer that question.
So I mean, you look at the the Whati transmission line, and I do want to say that it is more reliable than mini hydro, and not only that but sometimes what seems to be the cheapest option isn't always the best option. However, there were cost estimates done on a potential 1.2 megawatt mini hydro project on the Lac La Martre River about a decade ago. We look at, you know, the Tlicho government and just working with the government to be able to, you know, to look at some of the projects at the same site however conserve some of the Whati and the North Slave as well. Yeah, I think that is something that we can look at as well. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thanks, Madam Chair. While the Minister is looking at it, could she commit to share that information with this side of the House? Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, there is, you know, when this project first started, there was a lot of work that was put into it to be able to determine whether it's feasible or not to continue with this project, and this is something that we are looking at in terms of some of the reports and the work that Infrastructure's done to be able to have a look at the projects. That's perhaps something we can look into and if we're able to share it, absolutely. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thanks, Madam Chair. Well, I look forward to the Minister opening the vaults and sharing that information and when I get it, I'll look at it carefully and probably have lots more questions about this money because I just think that we would get a much bigger bang for our buck and help serve three communities for the same cost of doing this one project that I just think is not you know, there was a lot of feasibility work done on the mini hydro projects as well that was in some of the information I tabled in the last Assembly. And I just don't get why our government wants to invest in this large project that is I don't think it's even I understand the need to get a sustainable and durable power supply to Whati but I don't think this is the best way to do it in my opinion. But I'm more than happy to look at the information the Minister's going to provide to me. Thanks, Madam Chair.
Any further questions, comments? Seeing none. Supplementary Estimates, (Infrastructure Expenditures). No. 1, 20212022. Department of Infrastructure, operations expenditures, programs and service, not previously authorized, $8,046,000. Does committee agree? Thank you.
Supplementary Estimates, (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 1, 20212022. Department of Infrastructure, operations expenditures, total department, not previously authorized, $10,254,000. Does committee agree? Thank you.
Committee, we will now consider the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs on page 8. Supplementary Estimates, (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 1, 20212022. Department of Municipal and Community Affairs, operations expenditures, regional operations, not previously authorized, $2,500,000. Does committee agree? Member for Frame Lake.
Thanks, Madam Chair. I usually try to find something nice to say about my Cabinet colleagues, at least once a day. And this is a good one. So I want to compliment them for finding some money to start to close the municipal funding gap. But can someone tell me what the current, you know, calculation of the municipal funding gap is? I know there was some targets set in the mandate that Cabinet developed. So how much is the gap and how does this meet the mandate commitments and, you know, how close are we getting. Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Madam Chair. So, Madam Chair, we'll certainly see if, in fact, there's an estimate that perhaps the Department of Finance might be aware of, although I'm not sure I mean, again, that's not necessarily the information we would have brought on the supplementary estimates for this particular sup.
The commitment that was made in the priorities is, of course, is to reduce the funding gap by $5 million so we certainly are taking a significant step towards that with this additional $2.5 million here, even in the onetime event. But, yeah, Minister or sorry, Madam Chair, I'm going to have to commit to get back on an update with the numbers as to what this will do to the municipal funding gap. I don't think I have that here or not in terms of this infrastructure sup.
Any further questions, comments? No? All right, Supplementary Estimates (Infrastructure Expenditures) No. 1, 20212022, Department of Municipal and Community Affairs Operation Expenditures, regional operations, not previously authorized, $2,500,000. Does committee agree?
Agreed.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Supplementary Estimates (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 1, 20212022, Legislative Assembly, capital investment expenditures, Office of the Clerk, not previously authorized, $966,000. Does committee agree?
Agreed.
Agreed.
Supplementary Estimates (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 1, 20212022. Department of Education, Culture and Employment, capital investment expenditures, Cultural, Heritage and Languages, not previously authorized, $216,000. Does committee agree?
Agreed.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Supplementary Estimates (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 1, 20212022. Department of Environment and Natural Resources, capital investment expenditures, corporate management, not previously authorized, $184,000. Does committee agree?
Agreed.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Masi, Madam Chair. Just, I know we've touched on this with the Minister, the walkin freezer for a whopping $150,000. Is it necessary to have a freezer? Because if there's meat that's seized from the hunters, usually it goes to the communities. It should go to the communities. If you have meat in a freezer for over a year, obviously it goes bad. And I think there was a process where they usually take footage of what they've seized from or taken from the hunters, and that's proof as evidence. And I'm just wondering why we need a walkin freezer for $150,000 to store the meat that's been taken away from hunters that should be going to the communities. So I'm just curious, Madam Chair. Masi.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, I think the Minister of ENR is quite keen to speak to this one, please.
Thank you, Madam Chair. We need the freezer because we had over 150 or 140 caribou that were killed illegally in the mobile zone. Unfortunately, we can't cut up the meat and put it away. We need to have it as evidence. We've seen a court case now that they actually the JP actually said we have to give some caribou back and they wanted exactly what he killed. So we need the unit to be able to store the caribou, the evidence, until the court case is dealt with. Once the court case is dealt with, we then give the meat out to the communities that did not I repeat, did not be part of the illegal hunt. So if community A did the illegal hunt, we would give the meat to community B, C, and D. So we need the this $150,000 freezer to make sure that we keep the caribou that are illegally killed intact. They're cleaned out, but they're kept intact and we need to keep be able to put them in there. And as you're well aware, trying to put these 150 caribou into a nice, small freezer does not work. Thank you, Madam Chair.
