Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, there's a chance. There's a chance they would support the travel support, not the income disruption. So income disruption wouldn't, as far as we understand, qualify under the financial assistance arrangement which is really meant to support the emergency piece. So, again, so yes, that $3.6 million was a decision made early in the fire season to try to support folks who had been subject to multiple evacuations. The Travel support program came a little bit later in the fire season. Again, we made the request; we've put it in. I believe it will be going in formally with the MACA application but at this point no formal confirmation, and we're not necessarily going to count on it. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go back to the Member from Frame Lake.
Member from Monfwi, did you you had your hand up earlier? Okay.
Yes, I'm just asking about this $6 million that's not, you know, previously not authorized. I just wanted to know, I know this is not enough because when the evacuation happened it created a lot of chaos, especially for Indigenous government, because a lot of our people went out and I know a lot of them spent their own money because they were because there was no plan in place. GNWT did not have an appropriate plan in place to help these evacuees. So I just wanted to know from this or if any of the Indigenous government are going to be reimbursed for the money that they spent to their members living in Yellowknife? Thank you.
Okay. Just so I'm clear, it's in reference to the supplementary estimates of $2,241,000. So I guess she meant the $6 million. I'm going to go to the Minister of Finance.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. So, Mr. Chair, again, I what I have here in front of me is with requests the requests for a supplementary appropriation related explicitly and exclusively to the Northwest Territories Travel support program. I don't have in front of me an entire accounting or budgeting for all departments with respect to events related to the wildfire season, nor do I have in front of me, nor would I in the course of a supplementary appropriation, have full details that are expected to come out in the course of the independent thirdparty review that I know is already underway and has been the subject of much discussion here. So this program was opened up in response to a situation and a circumstance of evacuation that the territory had never seen before, was stood up very quickly. It was stood up very quickly when people were themselves already under evacuation knowing that there would have to be a supplementary appropriation to help support it but it was an effort to try to see that some funding could be made available in addition to having available supports for accommodation and flights and air and food at the evacuation centres. So this was a very limited specific benefit paid to all eligible residents regardless of the community that they were in, and that is really the parameters of what we are requesting to have here. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Member from Monfwi.
I know this is a fourth supplementary. We're still doing budget, you know. So I just wanted to ask the Minister can the Minister give us a rough estimate of how much money was spent to forest fire and to evacuation? It must be over $300 million, or close to $400 million? That's the question. Give us a rough estimate. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister of Finance.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I don't I'm happy to come back perhaps tomorrow if there's questions on the floor regarding the total estimated or projected costs related to both the emergency response as well as to the fire response. I'm hesitant to give rough estimates when I don't have that information before me. I don't want to contribute to the conversation in a way that won't advance it with accurate numbers. So, again, I hear the Member asking. As I said, I'll go back and make sure that we have those numbers put together. Numbers can values do still continue to come in. There's still work being done to put that together on the part of all departments that were involved. We do certainly have those preliminary estimates but, again, I'm here only with respect to the items that are in the supplementary estimates. So one of the prior items, we did discuss the fire suppression budgets. We have that number available. Again, the $121 million on which we were seeking an additional 24, but with respect to the full evacuation costs that is something much bigger. We had to wait for Red Cross to provide their invoices, the Government of Alberta to provide their invoices. So, again, I want to contribute to the conversation publicly in a way that is accurate, and that's not information I have here. Thank you.
Okay, thank you. Before I go back to Member from Monfwi, on page 6 of your document under directorate, that's the line item we're talking about. So if we could stick to that, and we'll continue on. So I'm going to go back to the Member from Monfwi.
The reason I ask is that because we are still approving budget, and this is the fourth supplementary estimate that we're doing. So is this ever going to stop? Are we still going to be continuing onto the next fiscal year too? Or, like, I don't know. That's why I'm asking. Like, because this is our fourth supplementary budget, and we're still approving it. So it's just more of a comment. So thank you.
Thank you. Maybe that was a comment, I'll just continue on. Did you want to respond to it, Minister of Finance?
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I did want to respond because I can appreciate the frustration of seeing sups come back. Four sups in a budget cycle actually is pretty standard. And what I was going to suggest is perhaps I can and if it's of interest to the public we could certainly table it, but we could give the budget cycle showing roughly when the sups happen. You know, there's department cutoffs of when they have to put those requests in but then to get the four in is actually very common. This would be the cutoff time for the fourth one prior to the end of the fiscal year. So, again, you know, to the extent that that might help understanding the budgeting process, I'd actually be quite happy to put that out, as I said, as a tabled document or as a letter that can be part of our responses here. Thanks.
Okay, thank you. Continuing on, does the Member from Monfwi have any more comments? Okay.
Any more further questions? I'm going to continue on. Is there I'm going to go to the Member from the Deh Cho.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Would the Minister be able to give me a breakdown by community how this money is spent for them by community for...
Thank you. I'm going to go to Minister of Finance for the question.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I can give the dates and approximate durations for each community that over the course of the summer and when they were evacuated. Now, whether that correlates to who applied, I don't know. So let me take that back and I'll I can provide this document. I mean, I can't really read out the chart here in an easy way, but I can provide that to committee and see if we do have a breakdown. I expect that that probably has been tracked to the extent that we could. I just want to go back and confirm what kind of data I do have. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go back to the Member from the Deh Cho.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. That would be information that's just for community how much was spent in each community? thank you.
Go to Minister of Finance.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. So I mean, again, if it's with respect to the $6 million that's before committee here, I believe under the evacuation travel support, one of the eligibility requirements did involve listing your place of residence and so in that sense we will be able to, I believe, break down this $6 million by residence on that basis. If it's with respect to the total fire suppression and total evacuation costs by community, that may be a bit more challenged in that I don't know to what extent there will be you know, some fire suppression efforts that would involve by fire as opposed to by affected community and similarly evacuation supports that would be involving, you know, bigger costs for Health and Social Services moving patients which, again, I don't know that it would break down by the community of the patient. So depending on the nature of this ask, that may be a really big one but that I'll have to take back and see where I can get and provide that. Again, it may be the kind of thing that comes out over the course of some of the review efforts that are happening. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go back to the Member from Deh Cho.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I will be wanting that information later on, that big information; however, for now I just wanted the ones like, this is Evacuation Travel Support Program, so I'm assuming this money is used for, say, people that got evacuated from Hay River to wherever they needed to, and the people that got evacuated from Enterprise wherever they needed to go and the money that is that's what I'm assuming this and people from Behchoko having to come to Yellowknife or Yellowknife having to take off south, that's what I'm assuming this money is for. So just by community, what's the breakdown. That's all I'm looking for right now. But the other bigger one you talked about for the medical and everybody getting sent south, yeah, we're going to want to know that information later on. Thank you.
Thank you. The Minister, did you want to respond?
Thanks, Mr. Chair. So the evacuation travel support was only was quite narrow actually in its application. It was so only four there was $400 available by vehicle for folks who had been evacuated and were able to stay within the territory and stay at evacuation centres within the territory. Up to $750 per vehicle for those who had to travel south upon evacuation. And, you know and, again, I can certainly go through some of the rationale behind that with respect to the availabilities of accommodations and food at centres and flights. And I'm well aware that not everyone was able to make avail themselves of those the free services that were available. But this was really just meant as a gap filling exercise and not a complete gap filling exercise. So, again, I'll look into what information I can break it down further by the 9,500 residents 9,515, and exactly who applied from where. Thank you.
Thank you. Members, time has run up. Is there any further questions? I'm going to go to the Member from the Mackenzie Delta.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I just have one question in regards to the travel support program. There was patients from my region would have been misplaced and were located in Calgary about a week later. Would they qualify for this program, or is it still active? Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister of Finance.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. So the travel support was really just for people who were not able to access the flights that were made available for people. Those who drove a vehicle, then, by drove their own vehicles received this. So if it was an individual who was a patient, if they were evacuated by Health and Social Services or another associated agency or then they likely wouldn't qualify. But I'd be happy to follow up directly with the Member just to see if you know, if there's anything else that can be provided to support those residents. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go back to the Member from Mackenzie Delta.
Okay, thank you, Mr. Chair. Yeah, that information would be helpful in addressing this with constituents who were placed on medical travel and ended up in Calgary or elsewhere. That information will be helpful. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Okay, thank you. Is there any further comments from the Member from Mackenzie Delta? No, okay, thank you. Mahsi. Is there any further questions? Don't see any.
Okay, I'm going to go to Supplementary Estimates (Operations Expenditures), No. 4, 20232024, Department of Finance, directorate, not previously authorized $6 million. Does the committee agree?
Agreed.
Thank you. Supplementary Estimates (Operations Expenditures), No. 4, 20232024, Department of Finance, Office of the Comptroller General, not previously authorized $26 million. Is there any questions? I'm going to go to the Member from Range Lake.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, the $18 million related to public debt, what is the reason for the increase in expenditure? Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister of Finance.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. So this is required to meet debt servicing or, colloquially, the interest costs on debt. So a couple of different reasons have contributed to this being higher than what was projected in the original budget. One is there's a component under the Deh Cho Bridge Bond for CPI and, of course, CPI has remained fairly volatile and much higher than what many experts across Canada continue to predict. So that bond, as a result, has been paying out much higher than what we might have projected and certainly would have hoped. Notwithstanding, in addition to that, there is a much higher amount of shortterm debt being used as a result of having to carry the initial costs for the low water events both for example, with NTPC, there was additional funding with the impacts on MTS, evacuations, the wildfire suppression costs, some of which we're seeing here. Some of that before it was covered, for example the $84 million before we got that in from the federal government, the Government of the Northwest Territories was covering those costs and so that is contributing to a significantly higher shortterm debt amount than what we would have otherwise had. That requires paying interest on that much higher amount, and so that brings us to where we are now. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go back to the Member from Range Lake.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. And this is related to fiscal year 20232024? I'm seeing nodding of heads.
So the next question is on medical travel benefits provided to the public service. It's $8 million. Can we get some additional explanation on this increase?
Thank you. I'll go to the Minister of Finance.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, it's not an increase per se to the benefit itself. Just to be clear. It's an increase to the amount that's required to cover the medical travel benefits. So medical travel assistance, it's a benefit that a number of corporations and companies and businesses provide to employees. It's one that the Government of the Northwest Territories provides to our employees, to public servants. It is part of the collective agreement with the Union of Northern Workers as well as with NWTTA and is provided as well for excluded employees, senior managers. As such, when there are increases in the number of medical travel I was going to say medical travel events, or in the nature of what it is, then the costs go up. It's a demand driven exercise, and in this case those that demand has been much higher than anticipated. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Member from Range Lake.
Thank you. So is this and is this meeting trends? Like, trends over the last couple fiscal years, or is this kind of an unanticipated increase yes, unanticipated usage rate that has resulted in the need for a supplementary appropriation? Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister of Finance.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, we certainly do have the trends tracked since 20192020. I can share that with the Members if that's of interest.
There is a significant growth in the last couple of years, and I would say that that does track with what's being seen, I believe, over in the Department of Health and Social Services as well. One of the most significant impacts we've seen has been as a result of dental appointments which postCOVID so, again, looking at the last two years and it's postCOVID is the dental services in communities and regions have not been reestablished, and that has been 450 percent increase for that type of travel. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go back to the Member for Range Lake.
My colleague from Boot Lake just said we could build a very nice dental clinic for $8 million. So there's clearly a problem here. How it's not this Minister's job to solve it but when you're assessing these kind of applications in terms of an overall fiscal sustainability, does the department have a perspective that we need to solve this at a fundamental level rather than just throw more money into the medical travel program? Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister of Finance.
Yes. I'd be Mr. Chair, to be fair, the Member's asking a bit more detail than that and to be clear, so with respect to the benefit to employees, it's part of the collective agreement. We're expected to comply with our obligations under the collective agreement. But as I noted, it's a trend that we're seeing in medical travel and health and social services as well. And so, yes, absolutely, there is work underway between the Department of Health and Social Services and Finance to find a path forward on medical travel generally, the types of appointments, where people are going, the repeat appointments, nature of the appointments, the length of the appointments. And given what I have said here about dental services, that is definitely at the top of the list of things that there needs to be a better path forward on. Thank you.
Thank you. I'll go to the Member from Range Lake.
