Thank you. With me, I have Charlene Doolittle, deputy minister of the Department of Justice. And James Bancroft, director of corporate services. Thank you.
Thank you. Moving to corrections, beginning on page 306 with information items on pages 308 and 309, are there any questions? Thank you. I'm going to go to the Member from Frame Lake.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questions on page 308, the offender reintegration program, I notice the budget is not changing year over year here. Page 206 of the business plan -- I'll just give you guys a second to find it.
So on page 206 of the business plan, it speaks to a mandate commitment ensuring that policies and programs are designed and renewed with a trauma-informed, antiracist, and cultural safety lens. So corrections programming that supports offender rehabilitation and reintegration back into their home communities. The measure is number of offenders completing programming. The target is accessible and high-quality programs offered to participants. I would describe that that's kind of an expectation of programming as opposed to a target. I was hoping to see a target somewhere along the lines of reduced recidivism rates, something along those lines. But to the point on the budget, how does the department propose achieving this business plan commitment, increasing the number of offenders completing programming, by keeping this budget item the same? And it is a relatively small amount, so I can only imagine you can't deliver a huge amount of programming with $179,000. So I'd like to hear a bit from the Minister on this.
Thank you. I'm going to go to go to the Minister.
Thank you. So this is -- this funding was recently introduced. That's why we don't see anything for the 2022-2023 Actuals. It is part of the therapeutic community model. And to the Member's comments about the measures, I've said this when I was in front of the Members before, I am happy to take feedback on the measures. I have some that I brought to the department's attention myself, and so I know that in the next iteration of the business plans we will have measures that are a bit more -- that will allow us to really quantify how we're doing. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Member from Frame Lake.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. And yeah, just in response to that I would just say, I mean, I mentioned it already, but I think something along the lines of reduced recidivism rates or success rates, let's track the outcome that we're searching for, maybe set a goal, and that can be a better target than simply stating that we're going to deliver high quality programming. I think that's kind of a baseline expectation. So that's my comments on this item. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Member from the Sahtu.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. My question is in this corrections chapter is the closure of the Fort Smith Corrections Centre. It seems to me that -- I've read that we're going to take -- we're going to close the centre and we're going to have approximately 30 people -- or 30 staff members, plus part-time staff, basically laid off. Could the Minister provide a little bit more information on other options; is this really the only option? It seems like such a hard blow to our community and the clients within the corrections centre. I just don't have enough detail whether that's the best option or not, unless there's something that I'm missing. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. And I will say that this is not an easy -- this was not an easy decision. This has weighed heavily and continues to weigh heavily on me and my Cabinet colleagues. This is not something anyone wants to do. There are 15 full-time positions that are being affected. There are 17 relief positions as well. We have committed to do everything we can to ensure that there are opportunities for these individuals in other GNWT positions. There have been -- Cabinet is making efforts to determine how we can utilize the existing facility in a different capacity. The MLA for Thebacha, as well as one of our Cabinet colleagues, has had discussions with the leadership in the community and relayed that information. We are working right now to come up with a bit of a plan to move forward, and then we'll be reaching out to leadership again directly.
The correctional -- the numbers of inmates in the correctional facilities has dropped essentially year after year for the last five years. And there was a significant drop about four or five years ago. We are now sitting at around 80 or 90 inmates in the facilities, on average. I believe that's about 30 percent capacity -- sorry, 44 percent capacity right now. So the capacity is for 228 offenders, and we have a hundred right now. So it's hard to justify spending public funds housing offenders in facilities that are mostly empty and so we want to make a better use of those funds. And we understand the impact this is -- would have on the community, and we want to do what we can to mitigate that impact. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go back to the Member from the Sahtu.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thanks to the Minister for that explanation and understanding these cuts. I know it's a hard decision to dismiss people, having done that myself. But on the flip side here, it seems that the inmate capacity is sitting at 44 percent, which is good news. So it tells me that the incarceration rate or the occupancy is down. So therefore, is there plans to reduce the staff of that administration to house -- or the administration, the government employees, to reduce because of the reduction of the inmate capacity at 44 percent? Do we need all the employees still working? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. And that's what this reduction is reflective of, the fact that we no longer need all of that capacity in the system. The South Mackenzie Correctional Facility -- or correctional centre is actually at a lower capacity, but it is something unique that we do not want to get rid of at this point given that it is an initiative that is in line with our goal of addressing the effects of trauma. The South Mackenzie Correctional Centre is piloting a therapeutic model where inmates are actually residents, not inmates, and we attempt to help them gain the tools to stop them from coming back into the correctional centre. And so, essentially, it's the closest thing to a government-run wellness centre that I would say we have here in the territory, and we want to ensure that we give that facility the best chance at success. And so we are continuing with that. So we are making some changes to reduce our capacity given the reduced numbers, and that's reflected here. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Member from the Sahtu.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. It seems, you know, from past experiences there, we -- where there's a lost opportunity, another one's created. So we have an emerging willingness for rehabilitation. So there's going to be staff opportunities for the emerging counselling for drugs, as we discussed here the last number of days, more specifically yesterday, on the increased activity of the drug trade. So to minimize that demand through counsellors and those types of positions would the 30 position PY, in this case, you got 17 -- 15 and 17 PYs here. Is there some -- I don't know, maybe some of the staff members are approaching retirement so maybe we can retain those PYs for the emerging drug rehabilitation that I'm hoping some -- I'm hoping, let's say the Sahtu for example, if we have on-the-land treatment centres similar to the other treatment centres or the other campsites there in -- out on-the-land campsites there in Inuvik, if we have those types of trade staffs or professions within this department to help support other regions on drug rehabilitation and counselling. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister.
Thank you for that. And so we have the other facilities in the territory. So there's still a women's correctional facility in Fort Smith. There's South Mackenzie Correctional Centre in Hay River. And there is North Slave Correctional Centre in Yellowknife. And there are vacancies in those units. And the impacted employees, the affected employees, will have first dibs essentially on those jobs. And we have paused hiring until after this budget to ensure that those positions remain open for those individuals. As well, I will note that correctional officers are skilled workers. They go through extensive training and continuous training and so those skills are transferrable to other areas as well. And I'm confident that we'll be able to find other positions for them. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go back to the Member from the Sahtu.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. And thank you to the Minister for that reply. I'm glad to see that there's some transitional ease or counselling or identification to keep the staff busy in other areas or other departments. And also part of transitioning, if the Minister could add to the transition list, maybe there's other companies out there, such as the security at the mines, that these tradespeople at the correction centre might want to move to if the availability was there. So I thank the Minister for that assistance. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Next on the list I have is Member from Range Lake.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. So on the subject of the Fort Smith centre closing, can the Minister provide more detail on what the plan is with this new wellness centre? Because we haven't seen any concrete details or terms of reference or scoping. So I guess I'd like to know is this just kind of an idea, like hey, maybe we could turn to this, or is it an actual plan that they thought through and are developing? Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister.
Thank you. We do not have a formal plan. We recognize there is a facility in the community, that the community is taking a hit with the reduction, and we wanted to ensure that we were proactive in raising the possibility of this facility being repurposed. The leadership in the community has been receptive, and I would say that leadership in every single region in the territory has been more than receptive about wanting wellness centres. We've had those requests across the territory. And if that's not what the community wants, then we can work on something else that the community might want. There is -- you know, we've had treatment centres in the Northwest Territories. They come and they go. As a government, we are not getting back into the business of operating treatment centres. But there are opportunities for wellness centres, for aftercare centres, for on-the-land healing. And there is a desire to work with communities to bring those into fruition, and that's what our plan is. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go back to the Member from Range Lake.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. It just -- and I appreciate that, and it was my sense. But it just seems like if we're trying to -- if we're closing this facility because it's under -- they're both underutilized and is going to save money that is going to help us achieve fiscal sustainability, creating an untested wellness centre that would require new staffing, new resources, new special areas of specialty that we don't have -- we don't have efficiencies around, so it would be piloting a lot of these things, it seems like we'd be replacing a less than optimal facility with an even more expensive facility. So is this really the right direction to take this closure? If we -- you know, when assessing if we need the closure at all. Because are we replacing a costly facility with an even costlier facility? Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. There is nothing in this budget about a wellness facility in Fort Smith. There's no line items here. So I'm not replacing the facility with anything. We want to work with the community to access funding to do what the community would like to do and given this opportunity of a facility that does become available. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go back to the Member from Range Lake.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. So of the 15 full-time employees, the 17 relief employees, those are correctional officers who have been trained -- or who have received training as correctional officers, is that correct, Mr. Chair?
I'm going to go back to the Minister.
Thank you. To operate a correctional facility, there are a number of different positions that are required. And so the majority are correctional officers. There are case managers. There are supervisors. There are -- and similar positions. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go back to the Member from Range Lake.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. How many of those could be redeployed to operate a wellness facility? Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I don't have that information. I don't know if individuals want to work at a wellness centre. I don't know the backgrounds of the individuals involved. I am not opening a wellness centre. There's no wellness centre in the Justice budget. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go back to the Member from Range Lake.
Thank you. And that's fair, and I will be less pointed about the hypothetical wellness centre that is not before us, Mr. Chair.
So for those positions, what is the current plan? The Minister did speak -- or the Premier did speak to how they want to minimize any impacts to employment. But what is the current plan with these? Because they are specialized roles. So are they going to be transferred to other correctional facilities? Are they going to be laid off? Do we have a human resources plan to -- for these individuals who have affected -- who will be affected by this closure? Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister.
Thank you. The GNWT has a staff retention policy in situations like this. The Minister of Finance would be the expert in that -- on that policy, and so I'd prefer not to comment. But I know that the department will be working with those employees directly as they make their way through this process. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Member from Range Lake.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Nothing further at this point. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Member from the Deh Cho.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. My question is can the government better use the facility to make Fort Smith's facility more useful in corrections?
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister.
Thank you. So the facility is -- as I stated, the capacity of the correctional system far exceeds the need and so -- I mean, we could have infrastructure improvements to the building, but the fact remains that we have excess capacity. And that's in all of our facilities. You know, we have one or two or three women in the women's facility, and I believe the capacity there is 24. We have between one and two and three individuals in the youth facility, and the capacity there is significantly higher than that, at least a couple dozen if not more than that. And so to repurpose the correctional facilities as other kinds of correctional facilities is not something that we're currently looking at. We do have one correctional facility that we did try to do that with, that we tried to change the model, so it's a different approach, and that is the South Mackenzie Correctional Centre. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Member from the Deh Cho.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. So there's going to be, like, 25 to -- about 25 jobs lost that are going to be -- people are going to lose their jobs there. And some of them -- so can you completely shut down the youth facility in Yellowknife instead of the one in Fort Smith?
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister.
