Thank you. By law, we need to have a youth open and secure custody but we may be able to shut that down and send them to another jurisdiction. We may be able to shut the women's facility down, send them to another jurisdiction or to the youth facility. We could shut down a few more correctional facilities if the Members really wanted to, but that's not what we're doing. We understand that that's a massive impact that we don't want to have on the communities. And this is -- as I said, this is not an easy decision. And we could keep it open and keep spending that money, or we can try and save that money and put it towards our other efforts. Thank you.
Thank you. Next on the list to speak, I have here the Member from Great Slave.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. So still on the topic of corrections in Fort Smith but maybe corrections more generally, could the Minister tell me what the drop of inmates is attributable to? I'm asking this because he was the Minister of Justice in the last Assembly and should have a little bit of handle on that. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister.
Thank you. So the drop in numbers is due to a number of changes to the Criminal Code and decisions by the Supreme Court of Canada that changed the rules around bail and remanding prisoners. We used to have significantly more remanded inmates in the facilities. That is one of the issues. Perhaps I can hand it to the deputy minister for some more detail on this. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the deputy minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yes, those are two reasons we suspect. We currently have a senior management working group looking into this. Our numbers have decreased in our facilities significantly since 2020, and they continue to remain so. An increase in social supports in the Northwest Territories has provided evidence as well to decrease in our numbers. So things such as the safe ride, sheltering, alternative housing options, those are things that we presume have continued these decreased rates, along with changes in federal legislation and case law as Minister said. So we are looking into trying to concretely identify specifically more what these reasons are, but those are the three that we have, you know, indicated so far in some of our research. So thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. I'm going to go back to the Member from Great Slave.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. And thank you to the department and the Minister for that. On the flip side of that, if you read the mandate, if you read the business plan, it sounds very much that the Minister and his department are seeking to increase the tools that would possibly allow for the courts to better pursue folks who are, for lack of better words, you know, ripping at our smaller communities and, indeed, the community of Yellowknife with the drug trade. So on the flip side of that, I'm very excited that, you know, folks are getting better options to them than just putting them in jail, but if we are looking to increase the tools at our disposal as the government to go after folks who are in the drug trade, do you expect have more inmates in the future? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister.
Thank you. Well, that's hard to predict but we -- even if we have more, it's highly unlikely that it would be enough to put us close to that full capacity of our facilities. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go back to the Member from Great Slave.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm good for now. Thanks.
Thank you. Next on the list I have is the Member from Inuvik Boot Lake.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, my question is -- so if I understand correctly, the Fort Smith correctional facility equates to about 40 percent of what the department has. Is that -- or there was a 40 percent occupancy in the corrections facility itself?
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister.
Thank you. So the Fort Smith facility has been -- for the last little while, there's been no offenders there. Previously, it was around half full, give or take. Our entire capacity across the system, we're about 44 percent capacity across the system. Thank you.
Thank you. I'll go back to the Member from Inuvik Boot Lake.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. So, Mr. Chair, I note in here that there's been no recommendation of any cuts at the senior bureaucratic level for this department, just at the corrections facility in Fort Smith. And given that it is low and if things are as, my colleague from the Sahtu said, improving, are there any considerations for potentially then having some of those positions that are currently in Yellowknife cut as well?
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister.
Thank you. There is a senior management position in Yellowknife that is being cut. So it should make the -- might make the Member happy but it's an assistant director position at headquarters. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Member from Inuvik Boot Lake.
Thank you. Yes, it just makes sense to me if we're losing that portion of a department, then likely there's less work the department needs to do.
My other question, Mr. Chair, is that is there any consideration given the -- I mean, the opportunity to work in this, certainly in this field, or to work in general in Fort Smith, likely not as robust as in the capital city, was there any consideration given to potentially closing a couple of wings in the Yellowknife facility and keeping the Fort Smith open and given there may be easier then for either a transfer of jobs for the people affected here or opportunities for other employment? Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister.
Thank you. All options were looked at. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go back to the Member from Inuvik Boot Lake.
So can the Minister confirm that that option was looked at, sorry.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister.
Yes. Thank you.
Member Inuvik Boot Lake.
Thank you. Nothing further, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. I'm going to continue on now to the YK -- the Member from YK Centre.
Unless I missed it, maybe the Minister could put it officially on the record, when is the anticipation date to provide the layoffs in the context of effectiveness? Assuming the budget goes through, I mean you can't give layoff notices until the budget passes but what's the intent here? And it's funny to say it this way but is that being communicated with the staff? I mean, if they're listening, it's probably being communicated. So it's not meant to be a tricky question, Mr. Chairman. It's just a quite honest question, which is when would it be effective, or the intent is to be effective? Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister.
Thank you. So my understanding that, according to the staff retention policy, it would be three months after the budget was passed that the notice would be given. And the staff have been informed. So they're not learning about this on the floor of the House. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Member from Yellowknife Centre.
Yeah, I may be assertive sometimes and maybe described as asservic, put on this one this is a very sensitive issue, and I take it to heart. I mean, no wants -- no one feels good about anyone losing a job or potentially losing a job, so I'm trying to be very sensitive to that end. My question just built on -- just building a little further, I would like to say from the start, I don't like the concept of the building potentially being re-profiled as some type of health centre/healing centre. And the reason I say that, only because it's not the re-profiling of opportunities, that's not the issue, it's just the concept of a jail being a wellness centre does cause me some personal discomfort. And so before decision's being made like that, I'm not opposing that, I'm saying it causes me personal concern, though. I would really like to hear the community, if that's the direction it wants to go, that's the conversation I'd like to hear come from the community. Because, I mean, it's easy for me to say make a jail a wellness centre or a treatment centre, but I mean people still have those eerie discomfort feelings about what the institution was created for or was intended for. And let us not kid ourselves, changing cinderblock walls and rooms to special rooms, be it sharing circles, etcetera, does come with a negative feel to it. So I maybe ask the Minister if there's to be some creative solution with this asset, will the community be involved in that conversation? Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I agree with all those comments by the Member, and the solution will be driven by the community. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go back to the Member from the Yellowknife Centre.
Yeah, thank you. And it's ironic, I mean, our facilities numbers are going down, which is -- no one wants to pray for more crime which would mean the facilities would be busier. So I don't know if this is a symptom of things are getting better or worse in some ways. And maybe is there a reason why the trend is going in this way? The Yellowknife facility, if I remember correctly, was built for around 200 individuals. The Hay River facility could handle -- I can't remember the number. I'll say 40, maybe or so. The numbers isn't the issue that I'm raising, is the trend is the issue. And is there something we need to know or be aware of? Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister.
Thank you. And as the deputy minister stated earlier, there is a working group looking at the reason, examining the reasons behind the decline. Some of the obvious reasons are changes to the Criminal Code as well as case law handed down from the Supreme Court related to things like bail. And the majority of inmates has, I believe, historically been remanded, and when the Supreme Court and the Criminal Code says no more remanding of individuals except in expectational circumstances, that has a huge impact. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Member from Yellowknife Centre.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, the only thing I would say left on this one is that, again, I take the job loss serious. I mean, sometimes government has to do things. I recognize that. I mean, I don't support the layoffs personally in the sense of, yeah, this is a good idea. You're not going to hear that from me. But what I would say is that I recognize the government has to do the government of business sometimes, and I would encourage the department and the Minister to use the fulsome opportunity of trying to find ways to bridge these into the other two facilities, be it Hay River or Yellowknife or find some ways. I do know that the Yellowknife facility has challenges, staffing, overtime, etcetera. There may be opportunities -- you folks know your numbers better than I do. So I know them anecdotically, but you know them accurately. And so I'll leave it that with saying that if -- if the Member -- if the Minister needs support to find ways, I'll certainly be supportive of finding ways to get the people to facilities that could use them. And if that specific line item needed to be a supp for transfer or whatnot, I mean, I would easily be supportive of that. Thank you.
Thank you. No further questions? I don't see none. I'll continue on.
Please turn to page 307, Justice, corrections, operations expenditures summary, 2024-2025 Main Estimates, $36,757,000. Does the committee agree?
If you could say it louder so that we could hear.
Thank you, I'll read it out again. And if you could speak up so we have it recorded.
Justice, corrections, operations expenditures, 2024-2025 Main Estimates, $36,757,000. Does the committee agree?
Agreed.
Thank you.
Moving on to court services, beginning on page 310, information items on page 312. Are there any questions?
Seeing none, no further questions, please turn to page 311. Justice, court services, operations expenditures summary, 2024-2025 Main Estimates, $15,765,000. Does the committee agree?
Agreed.
Thank you. Moving onto the legal aid services beginning on page 313 with the information items on page 315. Are there any questions? I'm going to go to the Member from Yellowknife North.
