Yes, thank you, that's correct.
Thank you. I'll go back to the Member from Range Lake.
Thank you. So given that okay, so we have costs. So do we know how much so basically we don't this isn't saving money as much as it's generating revenue and the that revenue's going to be used to support the program as it's currently designed. Is there still if everything works out with the rebates and with the copays, what is the gap missing debt? Or what's the total cost overrun at that point? Thank you.
Thank you. I'll go to the Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, this is all by estimates because we don't know what the 2200 people because they haven't fell within a specific disease, so we don't know what their needs are. They may have high costs in pharmacare or medical supplies that they require but they haven't fallen under one of the specific diseases. And so these individuals, you know, we don't know until we actually get them to start applying to the program because until then, you know, that's where we're at, and so there's in the presentation, and I know that when we were in the briefing, and there's it could be cost us $1.3 million. If there's not a significant uptake, it could not you know, we could cover our costs. So there is it's all estimates right now, and that's why I'm saying, like, until we have the roll out and we know what people what services and what the needs are of the residents that haven't had access to this program. As well as the many other programs that are out there that are supplementing some of the individuals, so some of these individuals on this may have access to some types of insurances, which will offset some of those costs. We won't know that until people are actually applying to the program. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. I'll go back to the Member from Range Lake.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. These are all estimates. The entire budget is estimates. So, I mean, we're making that's the I don't understand why we can't have a clear estimate on what we expect to expend here. And that's, I think, the issue here, is when we reviewed this at the committee stage, there wasn't a clear cost saving measure for copayment, there wasn't a clear estimate for how much this is going to cost, and all of that. So where I'm sitting right now is I think I know for a fact, because my constituents have spoken to me about this, that there are people who are caught in the gap between, you know, the extremely low income threshold that's been that's going to be put in place and the high cost of their care, that now they're falling off this system. And these are people who aren't seniors so they're in that gap where they have high needs, they make too much money but they're not seniors so they won't be covered. And those people are going to be left out in the cold. And that's why I can't support this change, especially when we just don't have the numbers to support it. So if we're just going to say well, it's estimates, you can't really critique this until we actually have actuals, I mean, I don't know how we proceed on this entire budget. So I guess I'll leave at this, noting the clock, but or I'll ask one question on the clock.
So will the Minister reverse income testing for extended health care benefits? Thank you.
Yes, thank you. Before I go to the Minister, I just want to remind Members that these mics that we have on our desk, they're very sensitive and it affects our translators, so if we could just be careful whether we throw pencils down or hit it by accident there. It affects their ears. So I'm going to go to the Minister. Mahsi.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, we have provided numbers. You know, the estimate is what is in the budget, and we've said that it's 1.3 like, and it's in the letter that I sent today as well, that the summary of the expected increased costs is $2.5 million, less the estimated copayments by residents of $1.2 million. That leaves a shortfall of $1.3 million. So thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. We'll take one more, Speaker, then we'll go for supper for 30 minutes, and we'll come back. And I'm going to go to the Member from the Dehcho.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Last week, I spoke of well, talking about medical travel. I looked at the and it looks like there's a significant drop in the main estimates from 20222023 to 20242025. That's a huge number that it dropped. And I brought up a constituent concern last week about that individual that was in Edmonton, could not be brought back to the North because an incident happened in Edmonton. And this individual had paid taxes all his life in the North. He needed assistance to come home. And I mentioned that his health was taking a toll for the worst. Well, I regret to inform this House this individual passed away Saturday morning. So it's pretty hard for me to be here right now to talk about this. So I need to ask the Minister I did make a point last week to say can the Minister do a onetime coverage for travel back home for anybody that gets hurt out of the NWT? I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Consider a onetime coverage for travel back North for anybody that gets hurt outside of the territory? That's what I want to say. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. You know, I hear the Member, and I'm you know, my thoughts and prayers go out to the family and her community and, you know, her constituents. You know, this is these decisions and some of the things with medical travel and this is why there's this is the hard part of this, you know, is that there's only so much money in the territory, and we want to do everything for everybody. But we as a government can't operate on single individual cases case by case. You know, and I hear the Member and I understand the concerns. You know, there's but at this time, that's why we've committed to reviewing the entire you know, the medical travel policy as a whole to see how we are running this program. You know, and I hear the Members, and everybody wants you know, we want to have services provided for free to all our Members. We want to have services that, you know, anywhere else in Canada that you are paying for free in the territory because of the cost of living. But in order to be able to provide all of those services, we have to pay for those services and so, you know, we have to pick areas where we can support people to travel for their medical appointments. We have to pick, you know, and then so when we have extended health benefits, we've got people wanting to go out for treatment, you know, and there's so many needs that our territory needs and, you know and unfortunately, where we are is we I mean, I'm sure health could have I could ask the Minister to give me $1.2 billion, double my budget, to provide everything that you know, and even that wouldn't be enough. And, you know, so and so I'm really you know, I'm really I'm sad to, you know, hear what the Member's you know, what she's had to say, but unfortunately, this is why we have we're doing these reviews and we're looking at ways to try and come up with ways to pay for certain things that people of the Northwest Territories needs, and we have to prioritize. And I get Members don't agree with sometimes the way that we're prioritizing. And thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Does the Member from the Dehcho have any further questions?
Yes, thank you. And thank you to the Member for that. I apologize for that. The reason that it's hard on me is because I'm it's a close family member. And I went to see him when I was in Edmonton the last time.
So the next thing I have is what policy change can the Minister make so this is the last family that goes through this? Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. This is why we're looking at the policy review. You know, and even the information that I explained to the Member in the House, you know, people leaving the Northwest Territories, I myself, you know, when I first travelled, you know, that's not something that we normally do because we usually jump in our vehicle and we head down to Whitehorse from the Beaufort Delta. We don't think about having to access what happens if we get hurt, you know, or what happens if we're in an accident. And so, you know, that's another that's part of this is going to be making sure that residents know, you know, what their coverage is and what their you know, when they're getting their health care cards, what they're actually covered for and when they need to get other coverage. And so, you know, I'll make sure that that's part of the review when we go through it as we are going through it. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go back to the Member from the Dehcho.
No, I'm going to continue on, I'm going to go to the Member from Monfwi.
Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is yes, it's regarding I know the extended health benefit, there are some some of my constituents, they're going to benefit from this. So it's good that it's there. But I'm going to speak to medical travel benefits.
I do sympathize with the Dehcho because that person, he worked many years, over 20 years, and paid his tax. I don't know him personally but there's a lot of people that know him in Tlicho region. And he paid his tax. He paid income tax, territorial tax. And yet we cannot provide a medical travel assistance to come home.
My constituent went through this last year too as well because the medical service was not provided to the individual, it's a retiree, an elder and retiree. Same thing, paying her tax all through the years of working for the government and she was denied. So the family took it upon themselves to travel south and to come home. That was denied. But the only thing the government approved, it's sad to say what Dehcho is going through, is the government paid for the body to come home. And I don't like that. I don't agree with it. It would be nice if the medical travel can be extended to NWT residents because there are some things that happened, it is beyond our control. I know medical travel is important. It's necessary for NWT residents due to some of the services that we don't have in the North, so medical travel is approved with agreement in place with Alberta. It is in place for them to seek the services provided.
But I just wanted to ask the Minister further to what my colleague said, part of the review I know insurance benefit when we're travelling, they always say do you want medical travel insurance, do you want insurance, you know. So if those kind of insurance can be extended to NWT residents provided to the residents wanting to travel or to travel outside of NWT, so we do not have to go through this, through what the my colleague from Dehcho is going through and what my previous my former my late constituent through last year. So I just wanted to ask the Minister if they can seek or find some ways to extend this medical travel to all of the NWT residents that are going to be travelling outside? And I know they're reviewing that medical travel, but I just wanted to know if they can find some ways to accommodate the northern residents who lived here. Some of them were born and raised here. Some of them, they spend over 20 years here and then we cannot, you know, just let them be out there. And then, you know, we have to accommodate them. We have to find some ways to bring them back home. So will the Minister answer that or, you know, make it part of their review.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, the medical travel policy and I hear the Member, you know. And if people leave the territory on their own for whatever reason and it's not through being sent out for a medical through medical travel for access to an appointment or surgery or services, then this program doesn't apply to those people. So any residents or any people that are travelling out of territory, that's why I was saying in the House it's very important that you know what your coverage is, and I was saying some people have credit cards. And I hear the Member, you know, and I'm sure she'll tell me back that her elder doesn't have a credit card or something, you know, and I understand that, you know. But it's really important that, you know, there's services for and our residents need to and, you know, because we've this is not the first like I said, this is not the first person that's the BF that's come through the Minister's office with the same concern. And many NWT residents, you know, do not realize that when they're leaving on their own, that it's not medical travel and so when they end up getting sick or somewhere outside of anywhere in Canada or anywhere, then they're it's their responsibility to get back home.
I hear the Member. I know that we're doing a review, but this medical travel is not an insurance program. It's what we actual costs that we pay to send people out. The fee that we have to pay to the boarding homes, the flights that we have to pay for medical travel, it's not an insurance. Insurance is what I said is outside, so if people are leaving the territory. And I get and I hear you know, I know the Member, you know, in small communities not everybody has this information. And so that's for us to try I guess to try and make sure that people are aware of what they're covered for, whether they live in the city or whether they live in a small community and they choose to travel outside the territory for personal reasons. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go back to the Member from Monfwi.
Okay, thank you. I know that we're going to be talking about it, you know, as long as we're here because it is an important issue. So I just there's another issue that I had is that lately I know in small communities people are having you know, that need medical travel or that are travelling on medical travel to the south, we've been having issues where people are having a hard time trying to find a medical escort that require medical escort. And I know a lot of them are saying due to high cost of living, I can't leave my work long. Like, they will be granted some leave but not for two or three weeks. And some of them, they have families. So that's why it's hard. It's difficult for some of them, you know, to find a good medical escort. And I know Larga that looks after, you know, NIHB but anyways, they don't provide the services needed, you know. They just provided accommodation and the transportation to and from to the medical appointments. But there are some people that need medical travel assistance escort but some of these people, they don't mind going but they don't want to stay longer.
So I just wanted to ask I know this is outside and we've been talking about it, if medical travel escort can be offered at the other end, you know, in Edmonton or where you know, mostly to Edmonton because that's where most of our you know, and I know government are good at creating a positions here and there for, you know, for various departments. Would it be possible for the government to create somebody at in Alberta or where our residents will more often that there could be some kind of a medical travel escort or somebody that can be working with our residents that go south and especially with the language too as well with as a translator as well. Because it's hard. It's hard for many of my constituents. They say, no, I can't go. I would love to escort but due to high cost somebody has to pay I have to pay my bills, you know. I can't. And some of them, they have small children. They say, I can't leave my kids for long. So that's always a problem. So it would be nice if the department can come up with some kind of a plan to accommodate the patient seeking the assistance or the services provided outside of Yellowknife because we don't have the only time the reason why that medical travel is required is because due to the lack of services in the North. So I just wanted to ask the Minister if they could create a position or, you know because we already have some people living in the south. Our residents, you know. Not just my residents but from all over the North there are some people living there, so maybe they can accommodate those you know, the people that are there already to help or work with our community members. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. And yes, I we can include that kind of a review as part of our you know, with the support. And I hear you that there are a lot of times when seniors sometimes they struggle, they need assistance to travel for an appointment and they can't find a nonmedical escort to go with them, even though they're approved. And sometimes they just need that little bit of extra support. And so those are the types of things that we want to take a look at and how we can streamline and, you know, and in those cases be able to look at how we are supporting people in our boarding homes and things like that. And so, yes, I will commit to making sure that that's part of our list of to do/to look at as part of the medical travel review. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. We're getting close to the end here so we're going to go as far as we can until the supper is ready. We're still on page 215, and I seen the Member Yellowknife Centre had his hand up.
(audio) and it's I was just there was an area my good friend from the Dehcho and I were talking about and just by way of a sentence or two to you know, the North is a bit different, and we all know that. We talk about that all the time, right. So I mean, who am I telling here in this room? We have 19 experts of how the North is different and we talk about it every day. But, you know, sometimes we can't apply a Hamilton, Ontario, application of how we treat our folks and our families and our friends. I mean, when you're in a small community, I can't say everyone here knows in this room, but when you grow up there, you know everybody and it's hard not to be connected whether you know them or not. You just know them. You know, it's the reality. So whether you're related or just friends, who knows. But the thing is that what makes this different is that those special relationships, and what makes me wonder about, you know, why don't we invest the time in creating a bereavement policy. And I think that's truly what the Member's after in some form or fashion about how do we address these things. Because when you're in a community, you know, and you don't have resources to connect or pull things together or deal with them in these ways, you just don't have them, and it becomes a massive crisis at a time that this just layers on trauma.
So my question for the Minister like I say, I don't need the whole ten minutes, but I mean, it's a matter of is it time to ask the department to examine a bereavement policy? Because there were always those who could afford it. There were always those who have insurance. But there's a lot of people that that wouldn't qualify for it. So I'm asking, can you consider it and examine it and then come back to the House on your thoughts on that and as well as, you know, what type of economics are we talking about? Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm unsure as to what the ask is. I get what I understand what bereavement means but I'm I know that we have we have support where we assist families when you know, when we have burials and things like that. And we do have programs for that. So I'm not sure what the exact ask is or the question is. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go back to the Member from Yellowknife Centre for clarification.
Yeah, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, you know, some of it is about burying and people back, whether they didn't make it. I'm not trying to be insensitive, but. And sometimes it's about connecting people to dying children, relatives, etcetera. So there is a bit of a variety. Someone's on their last leg and told you were on holidays, it's your fault, in the sense of it's your responsibility fault. That's what I mean. So I think the Minister knows what I'm getting at, and it's not as simple as defining it as one black and white policy. It's about trying to look at ways that we can connect and support individuals, you know, in crisis. That's what it's about. Thank you.
Thank you for that clarification. I'll go to the Minister.
Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair. I guess where I'm at is is that if somebody was to yeah, and I hear what the Member's concern is. And if somebody was to be gone out on medical and they passed away then, of course, we would cover that. If there's a family member, you know, we have like I said, there's support. There's financial support. There's federal support for families who you know, that have lost somebody. And so we do have some, you know, areas where we do support families with some of those costs. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. I'm going to go back to the Member from Yellowknife Centre.
I didn't want to tie much time up, Mr. Chairman. So we're coming back, and I feel like I might be going in a circle so I don't want to waste committee's time on that. But I'll just say that I think some of the points might be slipping through, and I'll have the you know, I'll sit down with the Member of the Dehcho, and maybe we'll go visit the Minister one day over tea. She's buying. And we'll discuss it further there. Thank you.
Sounds like a great idea. Okay, thank you. I'm going to go to the Member from Inuvik Boot Lake.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. And I won't stand between us and dinner. Just very briefly, two comments or two questions I guess.
The first one I guess from again, from listening and from what I understand about the extended health benefits. Would it not solve some problems if we were just to look at increasing the income threshold? Would it not resolve some of the issues I'm hearing? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister.
Sorry, Member. Can you just repeat what your question was so that I can make sure I'm answering the right...
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Member from Inuvik Boot Lake.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Again, and correct me if I'm wrong, but given what I've heard and what I understand of the new EHP, the program, would it not solve some of the issues at least if we were to look at increasing the income threshold to a higher income threshold?
Thank you for repeating your question to the Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I guess by increasing that I mean, the thing is is that what do we what do we establish as a if this is the range that we're going to be using, you know and this is something that it's not just my department. It's something that we're all using this as the income testing. But it would cost us more if we increased because we would have to pay more. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Member from Inuvik Boot Lake.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yes, I understand that. But is that not the touch point? Is that not the issue that seems to be what's causing grief? Or is that someone for example, I've heard stories that are on income support and then I know this doesn't qualify for a higher income but then would take a I won't say menial, but a small parttime job on the weekends, then lose the income support benefits, then left with no benefits at all. So and then same applies for someone who's making that you know, what is a living wage? I mean, there's way more and you can't really compare us obviously to the southern provinces because if you live in Inuvik and pay your $40 gigajoule for gas or if you're paying for the price of groceries and so on and so forth. So I'm just saying would that not alleviate some of the concern if we were to, and I understand that it's it ties in with other programs that have an income threshold but why do they all need to be the same? Why can't we look at this separately and increase that income threshold?
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I guess where I'm my I'm it's not for me to ask you questions. But for the concerns that I've heard are not on the low income side I guess. They're people having anybody who's under that threshold or has never had any services before, you know, I mean, this is where they're actually going to have an extended health benefit whereas they've never had it before. You know, if you're living in a house and you own your home and you're paying high utility costs, you know, I mean, this is where income testing is coming in and other insurances so, like, your employer insurances will also be there. There you know, and so this is a net. So when we look at low income, you know, like, take for instance we all know people that are making in this you know, salaries maybe around 50 grand. And then so what their net might be is 35,000 or 40,000, right. So when you look at the band that they're sitting at, they might be in the low income or they might be at one or two, and then they may, if they're depending on the cost of what they're like, we're bringing down the cost of the medication they may use so depending on where they are at, their maximum they may pay at those rates are I think it's $400 or $300 a month or a year and so that works out to and that's only if their medication if they've maxed out, you know. So if they're if they're maxing out what they're using but they'll never pay more than that $400. And as you go up in the bands and I mean, it's on the website. It's all there. People can look at what their CRA net income is and if they have medication, they will be able to say whether or not, you know how much they'll be, you know, eligible to receive or what they'll save in their costs on their medication or their medical supplies. If they fall below the low income, they'll have the access to the dental services. So these are, like, the people that, you know, are low income, no job. Our disability clients who are not working, they will fall below that. And if they're not under NIHB or they're not under Metis and they don't have any other insurances, they're nonIndigenous, you know, they may be new Canadians to the country that are working a low income job, they will have access to those programs. So thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. I'm going to go back to the Member from Inuvik Boot Lake.
I'm not arguing that. I'm saying is that what's low income? You have two people that don't qualify for the other benefits that you just mentioned. They're making 80 grand a year. You have a couple making 80 grand a year each, or a couple making that living in Inuvik. Not a lot of money left over at the end of the month, believe it or not. If you look at the bills and you know yourself what you have to pay up there. And if you had a couple of kids in that household as well and, again, what I understand and I get it. And when I've talked to people in the department and I've talked to other people, you know, this affects likely more residents in Yellowknife than it does outside of Yellowknife, but there are some. And so my and I'm trying listen, we need to get to a solution here because I hear what my colleagues are saying as well. But if we did if we looked at increasing that, would that not alleviate some of our problems, is all I'm saying. And the Minister doesn't have to answer that because I know she's just answered it but, you know, that's the issue. What is considered too much to make or too little to make, I guess is the question. And I get it. It's online. And I know there's a calculator and I know you can look at it. But are those numbers realistic I guess is what I'm saying. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister.
