Debates of October 30, 2024 (day 35)

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to recognize two pages that are here representing Inuvik Twin Lakes, Dallas Krutko and Keefer Ciboci-Raymond. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Member from Inuvik Twin Lakes. Recognition of visitors in the gallery. Member from Monfwi.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to recognize and acknowledge Melinda Zoe. She's a chaperone for the two young pages, Leela Bekale and Jaydan Zoe, from Jean Wetrade School in Gameti. So I would like to acknowledge them and welcome them. Thank you.

Thank you, Member from Monfwi. Member from Frame Lake.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I just wanted to acknowledge a constituent who is serving as a page in the Assembly this week, Lucy Mackay. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Member from Frame Lake. Recognition of visitors in the gallery. Member from Yellowknife South.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I'm very happy to say that I have a resident of Yellowknife South here in the room with us today serving as a page, Mr. Ben Mager. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Okay, this is a question for Minister of Finance. Can the Minister explain why the government decided to sublease the Old Stanton Building at an increased cost of $78.6 million? Thank you.

Thank you, Member from Monfwi. Minister of Infrastructure.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the opportunity that arose to sublease the building was later in the procurement process. This has been some of the challenge with the audit is that there were multiple stages to what occurred from back in 2013 when the project first originated up to the last stage of that project which is when that decision was made to sublease. At that point in time, there was this opportunity because the investment that was being made by one of the partners to decommission, renovate, you know, clean up that old building, that involved a significant amount of investment and their intent was that they would lease that out to recoupe the significant cost to do that. When they were ready to do that, Mr. Speaker, the Department of Health and Social Services was also looking at that time for an opportunity to put a long-term care facility somewhere. They did do an analysis on the cost per bed. I'll remind you, Mr. Speaker, that this was after COVID when costs of building and constructing new things had gone up. The cost per bed was quickly realized would be cheaper at the Legacy Building, then -- Liwego'ati Building than what it would be elsewhere and so a decision was made to pivot and to utilize that facility. Thank you.

Yes, thank you for that information. Mr. Speaker, can the Minister explain what non-medical services in the new hospital are projected to increase by $173 million over 30 years? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yes, Mr. Speaker, it probably is a bit of both departments here. Mr. Speaker, I'd like to take that number back. That's a very specific number, and I'm -- while I'm familiar with the audit, I am not necessarily up to speed with what that number would be.

So in terms of the projected costs, we do have a fairly detailed analysis that's obviously been done when we got the audit in. We are looking at where costs are going over the course of time. There's some concern that we have seen with respect to the audit in terms of understanding the difference between the portion that is within the P3 project and the portion that may be connected to Liwego'ati Building and then on top of which there have certainly been changes in the health care sector with respect to the costs of delivering health care, particularly following after COVID-19, and the time when the projections were originally done, 2013, 2015, do not match up to the realities of what we were facing post-COVID and so there are some concerns in there. And that may well be the sum total of the explanation, but I want to make sure I fully get the number that the Member referenced. So, again, so aside from mentioning the concern there, Mr. Speaker, I will make sure that there's nothing missing in that number. Thank you.

Thank you. The auditor general estimates that the Stanton project will cost $1.21 billion over the next 30 years. Can the Minister explain how the territory will pay the increase in cost? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, this too, I do just want to just provide quickly before -- you know, we pay the costs that we pay for services, and certainly within health care, these are essential services for residents of the Northwest Territories. But, Mr. Speaker, the auditor general was bringing together what for us is the P3 project which is the Stanton Hospital as well as the Liwego'ati Building which is where the long-term care facility and now primary care are housed. So this has been a conversation that I've had with the Auditor General's Office of Canada that does our audits over the course of many years. We do not see, as the Government of the Northwest Territories, the two projects as being one P3. That does seem to be how the math was -- come out here. Again, I'm -- you know, far be it for me to be the auditor on the floor, Mr. Speaker, but those two projects, from our view, are separate. They're both delivering health care services. We will, of course, prioritize to ensure that health care services continue to be delivered. There's a lot of work happening in that space to make sure that we're delivering the right services in the right way at the right cost. And as that evolves in both of those facilities, we'll continue to make sure residents are being served. Thank you.

Final supplementary. Member from Monfwi.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Can the Minister explain what effects taking on this debt will have on capital projects and spending in small communities? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, all communities across the Northwest Territories need to continue to be invested in, and analysis gets done, whether it's department of health looking at long-term care facilities, whether it's education looking at educational needs, those processes continue. One of the things that does come to me from looking at the audit is the importance of having good planning, is the importance of having good records, and quite frankly, is the importance of having all of that consolidated in one place with experts in that area and that is something that we do now have a much better handle on. Five years ago, Mr. Speaker, there was about five different sets of objectives associated to the procurement processes in the Government of the Northwest Territories. That is pretty difficult to maintain a coherent system when you're operating under a regime like that. And so, Mr. Speaker, this is an opportunity to reenforce that having one set of objectives and principles, one place where all of that resides, is exactly the right way to deliver better planning so that every single community has access to capital in an appropriate way, in a planned way, and in a way that is transparent to all residents. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Minister. Oral questions. Member from Yellowknife Centre.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my questions are going to be about exploring the options of what can be done. And the reason I put that in context, first, Mr. Speaker, because I don't want it to be thought it perceived in any other way. So that said, Mr. Speaker, I'm in possession of a letter from the Thebacha Leadership Council addressed to the Premier and/or Minister of Justice, and the question really comes down to is their concerns about their due diligence on the transition from an operational jail that has no inmates to the 32 jobs that may be forcing -- being forced through in the context of layoffs.

So I'm asking the Premier first, or I should say Minister of Justice, is what type of due diligence has been done on this initiative to say this is the right course of path and how have they worked with the community regarding this?

Thank you, Member from Yellowknife Centre. Minister of Justice.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. So earlier this year, this Assembly considered the main estimates which is the budget document for the Government of the Northwest Territories. One of the items in there was the Fort Smith Correctional Centre, the men's unit, and there were deliberations in this House and ultimately that budget was passed. And so the work that went in to the lead up to that is that we had a look at all of the programs and services we deliver across the Department of Justice, looked at what was legally required to be done, what programs and services were legally required to deliver, what programs are federally funded, so there would be no cost savings if we -- if we -- I don't know, removed those, and we looked at what services or programs are costing us more than we can justify. And so if we look across the entire correctional system in the Northwest Territories, we have a very low utilization rate, about around 50 percent it hovers, and we looked at all of the facilities and it was determined that the greatest cost savings would be if that facility was closed.

Now, this was not an easy decision. I lost many nights of sleep over this, had very, you know, spirited discussions at Cabinet but, ultimately, that's where we landed because it was -- we could no longer justify having that facility open for the few number of inmates that we in the Northwest Territories. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. And I want to recognize the tone the Premier brought to that. I think it was certainly appropriate. I'm not trying to do jabby or clever questions. This is very important, and it's a very important subject for our -- Mr. Speaker, I just want to make absolutely clear. 32 jobs in a region matter to a Yellowknife MLA because it affects us all in one way or another. That said, Mr. Speaker, the letter, including the phone calls I received, talked about finding a solution or a course of path for these jobs and this potential facility. Again, written from the direction and point of view of these people from the Thebacha Leadership Council feel that they -- the solution was dumped on them.

Has the department or the -- or the Premier, given this council any resources and time to be able to come up with an alternative solution to save the impacts and how this will radiate through the town of Fort Smith? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. And I recognize the impact that this will have on the community. I did travel to Fort Smith. I met with the leadership council, and I toured some of the facilities they have in the community. Some of those are GNWT facilities that they would like to operate out of. And the reason that, you know, we took those tours is I wanted to get the lay of the land of Fort Smith, see what resources that we had that could be provided to the community to assist in any sort of endeavour that they might want to embark on. The Department of Infrastructure has shared information with the leadership council about the operating costs of facilities in the community, and we're open to having discussions. So as soon as we hear from the community on what they would like to do moving forward, we're very willing and looking forward to working with them on that. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I want to put on the record that the meeting -- in the letter, it says the Premier was very cordial, it was a cordial meeting, again so I just want to emphasize his tone is appropriate in my opinion for this important discussion. Mr. Speaker, the Department of Justice has had years to study this particular problem. I'm assuming they didn't make this decision overnight, and I'm certainly recognizing that.

Mr. Speaker, the Thebacha Leadership Council feels they've been given days or weeks to come up with a solution to counter or provide other options without resources. Is the Minister willing to find some resources to help the Thebacha Leadership Council find an alternative use, either for the facility, or an alternative path for these types of employees who want to remain in Fort Smith, who are valued members of not only Fort Smith but the region and our territory at large? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. If the leadership council has some specific requests, I'm happy to hear those. We're happy to help however we can. If it's assistance looking for, you know, federal programs that could help operate a facility run by the leadership council or by an Indigenous government, we can assist with that. If there's information about the existing facilities in the community that they may be able to use, we're happy to assist with that. So I look forward to hearing directly from them. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Minister of Justice. Oral questions. Member from Yellowknife North.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questions today are for the Minister of Health and Social Services. So Yellowknife residents recently received a letter in the mail from the health authority informing us about the new primary care teams and crucially assuring everyone that even if they don't currently have a family doctor assigned to them, they would now be assigned to a team with a family doctor on it. So while that's a laudable goal for every resident, why was this commitment made at this time when each primary care team still only has less than two full-time equivalent physicians per team and that would mean that more than 5,000 patients would be assigned to each team; why was the commitment made at this time? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Member from Yellowknife North. Minister of Health and Social Services.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, with the Member's question, what's happening here is is that part of the primary care reform. So, you know, whether we move to four teams within Yellowknife, those teams have been equipped with -- from the ten teams that they had that did not have enough staff down to the four teams that -- you know, they've been placed and that way the remaining of the people in Yellowknife can be assigned to that team. Not every person on that team or in Yellowknife needs to have access to a physician. What they need is they need access to a health care provider. So within that team, they will be, you know, seen at the -- whatever their need is to the scope of the practice of that person that's on that team. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. So does the Minister believe that the current number of practitioners per team, that's physicians and other practitioners like NPs, that it is an appropriate number of practitioners per team to be able to serve this many patients, or is the authority striving for a different number of practitioners per team? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, whether I believe it is or I don't believe it is, I think what the Member -- what I would like to provide so that the Members of this House and the Member for Yellowknife North wants, I think is getting to the bottom is are these -- you know, these -- like, these teams going to be what needs to happen. We don't know right now. So what is happening is the framework is currently being developed to provide clear direction and performance benchmarks for this initiative. And these are going to be completed by 2025 but the -- in the -- what was there, you know, we were getting concerns from inside within the physicians. The ten teams, we did not enough people to meet those teams so creating smaller teams, we're able to fill all the needs in those teams, and now we'll monitor to see whether or not that's going to meet capacity for the Northwest Territories.

And I'd like to add, you know, on top of all the move and everything into the new facility and the phone issues, you know, that has also put -- it's not necessarily -- like, the teams are not working. It's people in the public are having access issues to try and make appointments. And that, you know, comes down to frustration from the residents of the Northwest Territories, and we are trying to rectify those issues. So I just want to make -- put that on the record that it's not all about downsizing. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Is the Minister aware of any studies or plans that have been prepared in the past that would give us an answer to the question of how many is the right number of practitioners for a certain number of patients per team? Do we have any studies that would direct us towards what is the appropriate number of patients per team? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I think we can all say that we have studies and research and reviews on many different areas within the health care system. Specifically to primary care, there are -- there are -- you know, there are different things that have been done. Some of those things aren't -- they don't necessarily meet the primary care reform needs. Some of -- some past -- you know, if there's reports out there, they might take pieces of them that meet the need of primary care reform. But we are moving away from the way that we used to provide services in the Northwest Territories. So what I can say is at this moment with primary care reform, we're using all of the past tools and any kind of reports or anything to try and make primary care reform, like, the best that we can for the residents of the Northwest Territories. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Minister of Health and Social Services. Final supplementary. Member from Yellowknife North.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. So finally, why were our primary care physicians not consulted or notified that the health authority would be sending out this letter and making this commitment to residents at this time? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, there are -- you know, there's the CEO, the territorial medical director. There is a vacancy that's being covered. How there are -- members of physicians that sit on the primary care reform team. So how and who wasn't informed, I can't -- like, I can't specify how that communication went to the physicians and how the information was released or how it was reported to them that it was going to be released at this time. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Minister of Health and Social Services. Oral questions. Member from Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, my questions is for the Education, Culture and Employment Minister.

This new deal with the federal government to expand school lunch program is an excellent opportunity to improve both nutrition and academic performance of children across the North. But I hope that this program will have a strong focus on Indigenous children.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister will the expansion of this program prioritize cultural relevance for Indigenous students? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Member from Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh. Minister of Education, Culture and Employment.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, also a huge thank you to the Member. His Member's statement absolutely hit on all of the points of what this relationship between the GNWT and the Government of Canada is trying to achieve, and it's so much more than food. And so the answer absolutely is yes. The program is based on the existing -- or the funding, sorry, is going to be funding through the existing Healthy Food for Learning Program that is maintained by Education, Culture and Employment, and those dollars flow out to education bodies. Education bodies will have the opportunity to work through community partnerships, to work with local harvesters and subsistence hunters, to prepare traditional foods in schools. Really, this work is going to be on a case-by-case basis depending on how each education body chooses to use some of it. And so some of the examples, Mr. Speaker, of how they're able to use some of this food is absolutely increasing quantities of food, hiring personnel to support the organization and food program delivery needs, providing food safety training, and also the ability to do capital or infrastructure investments or improvements. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. She answered all my questions. But anyway, I'd like to just look at how would this agreement work or take into consideration the unique northern circumstances in small communities; like, higher costs of groceries, traditional harvest, and then shorter growing season? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I'm very thankful that this program is willing to be flexible in how we administer it within the Northwest Territories within the criteria that I outlined for the Member. But that being said, the current formula funding for the Healthy Food Learning is going to be used, and that formula allows us to distribute based on student populations, also based on food cost indexes for the region the school is located in, and also the median incomes of communities. And so it will be flexible and responsive to where the students live and also the flexibility of the programming allows for things like capital investments and infrastructure improvements as determined by the education bodies, which is really important that we're able to actually work with education bodies and work with communities themselves in order to really get to where the students need these dollars so that it does have a positive impact in the classroom. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Thank you, Minister. Right now the GNWT funds $650,000 for NWT school food program. How much more funding can the NWT expect each year under the new agreement? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, Canada-wide, the Government of Canada is putting 1 billion more dollars over the course of five years into classrooms across the country. I am really looking forward to being able to work with the Government of Canada to announce what that will mean specifically for the Northwest Territories, and I'm looking forward to being able to do that in the next few weeks. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.