Debates of October 30, 2024 (day 35)

Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister.

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I'm certainly willing to provide the information to the Member and provide the information of what that might look like and examine the options that we have at our fingertips in order to see what the future holds for this slip. Thank you.

Okay, thank you. I'm going to go to the Member for Frame Lake.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. So noting that as it stands, this is an asset management item and the substantiation that the Minister shared with us, I mean, I'm taking it that even if we do convert it to cost recovery, we would need this budget item to move forward for them to be able to carry out the work because I assume they'd need to kind of come up with some kind of model to sort of generate funds to be able to call it cost recovery. So can the Minister sort of explain how that might work -- yeah, so we can understand how it works in the budget.

Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I would like to pass to the deputy minister for first crack at that one. Thank you.

Thank you. I'll go to the deputy minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. So our costs right now are embedded within our O and M budget. For example, the parks contracts that we give, right now our current parks contractor manages that marina, and the maintenance staff open it every spring and put it to bed in the fall. And so those O and M costs -- I mean, surely, we will get the costs for what it costs to manage but you're right, you know, this is a big project for us. Generally, we don't have these type of line items in the department. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. I'll go to the Member from Frame Lake.

Okay, thank you, Mr. Chair. I mean, yeah, I mean, my comments stand that I think facilities like this, you know, need to be -- I think we need to be thinking in a time when the government is having so much difficulty paying its bills, looking at facilities like this and targeting them for becoming cost recovery if we can. But at this time, I mean, we're looking at an item of asset management too and once we have an asset, we do need to maintain it. So I am in support of keeping this in here but would like the department to get that information to us and discuss how we can -- how we can recover our costs for providing facilities like this. Thank you. I have no more questions on these items for now, Mr. Chair. Thank you.

Thank you. Is there any questions from Members? Seeing none.

The Department of Industry, Tourism and Investment, tourism and parks, infrastructure investments, $2,978,000. Does the committee agree? Mr. Morse -- sorry, I will go to the Member from Frame Lake.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I move that the Department of Industry, Tourism and Investment -- sorry, just reading this motion here.

The Industry, Tourism and Investment, tourism and parks, operations expenditure summary, 2025-2026 Capital Estimates, be reduced by $865,000. And I can give some more substantiation for that motion in a second. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. The Member from Frame Lake has put a motion forward to reduce the budget by $865,000. The motion's in order. To the motion. I'm going to go to the Member from Frame Lake.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. To give Members some substantiation for what I'm looking to do here, I'll just give my substantiation for each individual project I'm looking to remove from the budget.

First is the Fort Simpson gatehouse residence. In the substantiation, they note -- you know, as the Minister shared with us, this is a site where the current park operator maintains a presence using an RV and this one, I just feel like adding new infrastructure to our parks right now, in a time when we are trying to conserve costs, is just not justifiable. I think that the way the park is being managed right now is reasonable, and so I would like to remove that line item.

The next one is the Blackstone Park fixed roof structure. The bottom line here is I don't believe this additional structure is a need-to-have and would prefer that this kind of money be going towards housing maintenance or construction. So I am suggesting that we cut that one knowing that we are not recovering or costs from these facilities. We can't keep adding to the number of facilities that we have to build and maintain.

The third item -- line item that I'm looking to remove with this motion is the Cameron Crossing Park. With this one, I simply don't agree with the substantiation for the park and, again, note that the cost of building and maintaining these facilities is growing and the more that we continue to grow these costs for construction, for maintenance, the more money that we have to pour into O and M, this is the slow growth, the death by a thousand cuts, that is preventing us from being able to afford to run the territory. And so I think we need to scrutinize these projects carefully and we have to look at what we can and can't build. I see this one, again, it's a project that would be a nice-to-have, but we are not in a government right now that is able to be looking at nice-to-haves. And so I'm very happy with the parks infrastructure that we have. I enjoy it myself almost every year. I've been to many of the parks in the NWT and absolutely love them, but I just don't think that we are in a time right now where we should be growing our parks infrastructure. So with that, Mr. Speaker -- or sorry, Mr. Chair, I have brought forward a couple of cuts where I'm looking at items where we're building new. Anything related to asset management I support, and I think we do need to be maintaining the assets that we've got, but when we're talking about questions about growing our assets, that's a different conversation. And I think -- you know, I've been very clear in some of my statements that I want to be focusing on our priorities. Our priorities include housing. And it would be my intention that this money be put, if possible, by Cabinet into Housing NWT's capital budget. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. Members, you could speak to the motion. Is there anybody else that wants to speak to the motion? I'm going to go to the Member from Yellowknife North.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. So I want to echo many of the points raised by my colleague from Frame Lake. I also am concerned with our fiscal situation and concerned with us continuing to build new infrastructure that is neither meeting basic needs, nor delivering us back enough revenue to cover the costs of building and maintaining and operating it. And in particular, when I was looking at the proposal for the new Cameron River Crossing Territorial Park, first I want to say I do appreciate that we have staff that are trying to think creatively and think outside the box of new ideas and ways that we can serve residents; I really do appreciate that. In this particular case, I'm not convinced that there is a significant market that is currently being unserved by our current options. I didn't hear any evidence that there was some kind of survey or like sort of, you know, scientific evidence or data that was collected on need. And certainly, I spend a lot of time out camping in tents off of the Ingraham Trail and many of those paddling routes that are in that area that were mentioned, and it was mentioned that this could be sort of an overnight stopover, and I've -- I've never found the need, and no one I know who does similar things, has ever felt the need to tent in a roadside established campground before heading out on the back country route that your destination is. So what we're looking at is $365,000 just initially, and that doesn't even cover the cost of actually building the campsites or the outhouse, so we don't even know what that additional cost would be in future years. And so I just don't think it's a good idea to proceed with this idea -- with this project. Instead, I would suggest what I have heard a lot, from both residents, constituents, and people who frequent camping spots and cabin spots along the Ingraham Trail, is where we do have a dire need for improved infrastructure is out at Tibbitt. And that's just in the sense of needing more garbage cans and toilets. So it's an extremely well-used area. It's a jumping off point to many other canoe routes, cabin routes, and we don't even have, you know, garbage cans and toilets and so people end up just leaving, you know, refuse all over the place. And so to me, I think we need to start with just looking at our existing needs and just stick with the basics. So that's where I would, you know, direct us to look to first before we start thinking of brand-new projects as complex as a new campground. So with that, I'm prepared to support the motion of my colleague. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. I'm going to go to the Member from Yellowknife Centre.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Whatever the last two speakers said, I say the opposite. Thank you.

Okay, thank you. Is there any other Members that want to speak to the motion? I'm going to go to the Minister.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I guess a couple of things, and just off the top of my head while we're sitting here listening to colleagues and what they're saying about these projects, I guess where I will start is that, you know, while I absolutely respect that one of the priorities of this Assembly is housing, absolutely certainly, we also have other priorities of this Assembly, one of which is economic development and one of which is access to health care and also mental health. One of the things that comes to mind, for myself, is that during COVID, it became very clear how many residents of this territory rely on our parks to get out, get on the land in a place that is accessible, and where they also feel safe. And 47 percent of our park visitors are NWT residents that are using these spaces to have their outdoor time. So it has been substantiated by residents that these are important facilities to them.

In addition, Mr. Speaker, the Government of the Northwest Territories doesn't run these parks on an annual basis. These parks are run by businesses, by Northerners, who are contractors and who bid on RFPs and come in and do this work. The people who do the work as far as coming in, bidding on projects, and doing this work are largely northern businesses.

One of these projects is located in Nahanni Butte. That is a potential for local economic development outside of Yellowknife and in a community. Another one of these projects is in Fort Simpson. And one of the things that I think is really important to remember here is yes, there's the economic development piece but a lot of these projects have to do with safety. And so when we're talking about putting a gatehouse residence into Fort Simpson, the current person who had the contract uses an RV. That doesn't mean that the next person is going to have access to an RV in order to secure that contract and do that work. And that is a contract that will be going back out to RFP and will be put back out there.

In regards to all of these places, they are a driver of tourism which we know is definitely a light in our territory. We are finally back up to pre-COVID tourism numbers, and we hope to see those continue to grow with increased interest in the North and something that we want to be able to support. Regardless of whether or not these dollars are here, we have an onus and a responsibility, we have a liability, to upkeep the infrastructure that we have. And if we don't upkeep it, then we have to spend money to tear to down. So the Blackstone Park fixed roof, that's an -- or that's an existing structure. So if I can't fix it, I'm going to have to come back to this house for money in order to tear it down. So either way I'm spending money on it.

I think it's also worthwhile pointing out, Mr. Chair, that this motion doesn't call for dollars to be specifically removed from this section. It calls for dollars to be removed from ITI as a whole. And I think it's worth noting that ITI as a whole has routinely seen budget decreases over the years but is constantly expected to do more and be a bit of a beacon as far as attracting investment to the territory and continuing to drive economic development and has some pretty -- they've got a pretty bossy Minister, Mr. Chair, who expects them to do a lot of things and expecting them to do that with less money is a huge concern for me. So I just want to raise that these are huge opportunities for local contractors to be able to take this on. And like I said, if I'm losing money here in order to do this work, I'm going to have to come back and ask for money in order to undue what's already there. So thank you.

Thank you. To the motion.

Question.

Okay, the motion's in order. Question has been called. All those in favour to the motion, please put your hands up so we could read it for the record. Okay, thank you. All those opposed to the motion? Thank you. The motion is not carried.

---Defeated

Committee, I will call activity summary, department Industry, Tourism, and Investment, parks and infrastructure, $2,978,000. Does committee agree?

Agreed.

Thank you. Thank you, Members. Please return now to the Department of Industry, Tourism, and Investment summary found on page 45.

The Department of Industry, Tourism, and Investment, 2025-2026 Capital Estimates, $6,649,000. Does the committee agree?

Agreed.

Okay, thank you. I'm going to go to the Member from Inuvik Boot Lake.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I move that this committee defer further consideration of the capital estimates for the Department of Industry, Tourism, and Investment at this time. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you. The motion's in order. To the motion.

Question.

Question. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion's carried. Consideration of the Department of Industry, Tourism, and Investment, 2025-2026 Capital Estimates, total department is deferred.

---Carried

Thank you, committee. And thank you, minister. Sergeant-at-arms, please escort the witnesses from the chambers. Thank you.

I'm going to go to the Member from Inuvik Boot Lake.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I move that the Chair rise and report progress. Thank you.

Thank you. There's a motion on the floor to report progress. The motion is in order and non-debatable. All those in favour? All those opposed? Motion carried.

---Carried

I will now rise and report progress. Thank you.

Member from Tu Nedhe-Wiilideh.

Mr. Speaker, your committee has been considering Tabled Document 193-20(1) and would like to report progress with one motion carried. And, Mr. Speaker, I move that the report of the Committee of the Whole be concurred with. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Member for Tu Nedhe Wiilideh. Can I have a seconder, please. Member from the Deh Cho. To the motion.

Question.

Question has been called. All those in favour? Opposed? Abstentions? Motion passed.

---Carried

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Orders of the day for Thursday, October 31st, 2024, at 1:30 p.m.

Prayer

Ministers’ Statements

Members’ Statements

Returns to Oral Questions

Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery

Acknowledgements

Oral Questions

Written Questions

Returns to Written Questions

Replies to the Commissioner’s Address

Petitions

Reports of Committees on the Review of Bills

Reports of Standing and Special Committees

Tabling of Documents

Notices of Motion

Motions

Motion 44-20(1), Performance Audit of the Management and Governance of the Northwest Territories Health and Social Services Authority

Notices of Motion for the First Reading of Bills

First Reading of Bills

Bill 15, Northwest Territories Indigenous-Led Conservation Fund Establishment Act

Second Reading of Bills

Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters

- Tabled Document 193-20(1), 2025-2026 Capital Estimates

Committee Report 17-20(1), Standing Committee on Procedure and Privileges Report on the Review of the Rules of the Northwest Territories Legislative Assembly

Committee Report 18-20(1), Standing Committee on Procedure and Privileges Interim Report on the Report of the Chief Electoral Officer on the Administration of the 2023 Territorial General Election

Report of Committee of the Whole

Third Reading of Bills

Orders of the Day

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Ms. Clerk. This House stands adjourned until Thursday, October 31st, 2024, at 1:30 p.m.

---ADJOURNMENT

The House adjourned at 3:33 p.m.