Thank you. I'll go to the Member from Yellowknife North.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. And so, I mean, the danger, of course, is that if we put all of our eggs into the basket, or many of them, most of them, of one company that's leasing us office space, we put ourselves at the mercy of cost increases, whether that's space costs or costs for various, you know, renovations and there's not much we can do about it if we're very dependent on one particular commercial landlord. So has the GNWT analyzed any risks associated with our dependence on landlords and us being at the mercy of costs that might increase as a result? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. To the Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, there are, indeed, industry standards for public sectors in terms of the amount that should, you know, ideally be held both between being an owned facility versus being a leased facility. Mr. Chair, again, I don't have with me right now for the supplementary estimate document where we fall within that. My recollection was that we actually were falling within the industry standard but, again, I don't have that here to confirm. There is a significant difference as between Yellowknife in particular, where there is a different market for office space as compared to, in particular, small communities and even regional centres. So, Mr. Chair, again, I'm more than happy to have a much longer conversation about leasing. It's certainly one, as I'm indicating here, that I've got my eye on. The Department of Infrastructure manages it for all other departments which makes an added complication in that there's different needs depending on those services of different departments. So I can say that when leases do come due, they are publicly tendered, and so we are seeking to get good market rates. And one good thing in Yellowknife. Which does tend to be the place where people are concerned about who we are leasing from, there is a greater amount of space available which makes it more easier to get a better market bid. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. I'll go to the Member from Yellowknife North.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. And the Minister preemptively answered my next question which is whether it's a competitive process when we decide to lease general purpose office space, but. So it is publicly tendered.
So my final question, then, is does the Minister know if we are currently paying rent in any buildings that are currently empty? So perhaps we've moved office space somewhere else, but are there cases where we move to a different office space and continue to pay rent in the previous space which sits empty? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I can't say for sure one way or the other. I would not be surprised if there are occasions that there may be some gap in time if services are moving one way or the other. I will certainly have to get that confirmed. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Next on my list to speak is the Member from Great Slave.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. On page 14, there is funding to support an increase in utility costs at 3.7, almost $3.8 million. I'm wondering if the Minister can speak to a substantiation on this noting which regions saw spikes. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I mean, I see, I believe utility rates would have seemed to have been changing across different regions both in terms of the electricity costs as well as transportation of fuel. So you may well see some higher costs, for example, in the Sahtu, but I -- again, the breakdown I have, shows as compared between the budget versus costs, and we have increases in the Beaufort Delta, in the Deh Cho -- particularly in Beaufort Delta, and Deh Cho, North Slave. Those three are showing right now as being over their budgets. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Member from Great Slave.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. And, yeah, I guess I just wanted to dig a little deeper on that. I would have expected this might have been the Sahtu with the pressures they've been facing but it's interesting to hear it's across more regions than just that.
So for edging into close to $4 million, much like previous questions in our committee this afternoon, I'm curious what kind of budgeting estimates have been perhaps not been adequate for our needs and anticipating maybe inflationary pressures to see such an increase? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I mean, utilities costs can and do include heating, electricity, water, sewage, garbage collection, so there are over 400 different individual assets that are managed by the Department of Infrastructure and depending on each community, there are some changes. One that I'd certainly point to quickly is the heating costs and obviously heating fuel, the cost both of providing it and then the actual costs have been very volatile over the last several years, including last year. Electricity costs obviously saw a bit of an increase already in July. And water/sewage may be dependent upon individual municipalities and what costs they are charging, so if there's been cost increases in some of the regional centres, that would then impact potentially on utilities costs. And yes, so those are just sort of my initial responses, Mr. Chair. Again, it maybe is a bit -- yes, in terms of budgeting that, there's -- this would be exactly a good example of what is forced growth but also when costs spike towards the end of the year, the forced growth process doesn't necessarily have the opportunity to take that into account and we can still see the department coming in short here late in the fiscal year. Thank you.
Thank you. I'll go to the Member from Great Slave.
That's all right. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Next on my list I have is the Member from Range Lake.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Going back to the office space leases, of those -- the northern arrangements we have, or arrangements with northern landlords, does the Minister know how many of those are Indigenous landlords? Thank you.
Thank you. I'll go to the Minister.
Mr. Chair, I'm able to say that I don't think we track that, the reason being that we don't currently have an operating definition for an Indigenous business per se and as a result of that, it's not easy to say the individual landlord is, in fact, is Indigenous. There's times where, for a development corporation for example, is an easier answer, but there are other businesses that may well be owned, operated, or partially owned or partially operated, and we don't right now have that definition so I'm not able to track that. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Member from Range Lake.
Thank you. Do we have an idea of how many are dev corps, then, or owned by local bands or other Indigenous governments? Thank you.
Thank you. I'll go to the Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, again, I don't have that in the materials in front of me on the sup. I can say anecdotically that I'm aware that, for example, communities outside of the regional centres, so small communities does -- occasionally there are opportunities to work with a community band or Indigenous organization who may have some land or some lease space available but, again, as a broad comment I will have to get back to the Member. I'm happy to do that. Again, I actually do -- I do find the leasing space one that I'm interested in, Mr. Chair. I just don't have that level of information for the purposes of the supplementary appropriation. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Member from Range Lake.
I appreciate that offer from the Minister. You know, this is an area that is kind of a very fertile ground for economic development for Indigenous governments, either through dev corps or other enterprises like that. I know anecdotically, as well, that a number of First Nations have buildings, commercial buildings, that the GNWT does, in fact, rent and, you know, sometimes increases like this are representative of rents that haven't gone up in a decade because they've been basically frozen as a result of a favourable rate to the GNWT and then you get, like, a big kickover like this. So I think we just have to be careful about how we characterize some of these things. Like, it's nice to own and operate our own buildings but sometimes there's a real economic upside, especially in nonmarket-based communities to allowing, especially local Indigenous authorities, to build on their own land and use that land to generate income. It can be a real game changer. And so I wouldn't want to see us, you know, back off leasing as a government without taking those things into consideration of how important it can be as a source of revenue for local authorities when there are limited options and it -- you know, it means we could support Indigenous companies in a different way that's just grants or secondments or things like that, right. Like, we can actually be a client, be a customer, and -- and, yeah, participate in economic reconciliation as a result. So I think the Minister agrees with me on that. And -- but, yeah, I just -- I want to make sure we're characterizing our leasing is not just what has often been said in this House, right, pointing the finger at certain large land holders. I think that hasn't always been good for our reputation as a place that's friendly to business because in the North, sometimes you don't have a ton of competition and a ton of different options to choose from, and I would love to see the space more filled with things like dev corps building commercial spaces and things like that, so we're not building expensive government facilities at very expensive public procurement rates. Instead we can rely on, you know, leased spaces in private sector builds that are far cheaper to operate than building fresh and we can save our dollars for debt reduction or program services, whatever have you. But, yeah, I don't like -- I just want to move away from that implication that, you know, we have bad actors just because they are large businesses that operate in the Northwest Territories. I think that's an unfair characterization. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Is there any other Members that want to speak to this line item? Okay, seeing no further questions.
Supplementary Estimates (Operations Expenditures), No. 2, 2024-2025, Department of Infrastructure, operations expenditures, regional operation, not previously authorized, $14,705,000. Does the committee agree?
Agreed.
Thank you.
Supplementary Estimates (Operations Expenditures), No. 2, 2024-2025, Department of Infrastructure, operations expenditures, total department not previously authorized, $33,121,000. Does the committee agree?
Agreed.
Thank you. Please turn to page 15 for the Department of Justice.
Supplementary Estimates (Operations Expenditures), No. 2, 2024-2025, Department of Justice, operations expenditures, services to government, not previously authorized, $31,000. Are there any questions? Seeing no further questions.
Supplementary Estimates (Operations Expenditures), No. 2, 2024-2025, Department of Justice, operations expenditures, services to government, not previously authorized, $31,000. Does the committee agree?
Agreed.
Thank you.
Supplementary Estimates (Operations Expenditures), No. 2, 2024-2025, Department of Justice, operations expenditures, total department not previously authorized, $31,000. Does the committee agree?
Agreed.
Thank you. Please turn to page 16 for the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs.
Supplementary Estimates (Operations Expenditures), No. 2, 2024-2025, Department of Municipal and Community Affairs, operations expenditures, directorate, not previously authorized, $108,000. Are there any questions? Seeing no further questions.
Supplementary Estimates (Operations Expenditures), No. 2, 2024-2025, Department of Municipal and Community Affairs, operations expenditures, directorate, not previously authorized, $108,000. Does committee agree?
Agreed.
Thank you. Supplementary Estimates (Operations Expenditures), No. 2, 2024-2025, Department of Municipal and Community Affairs, operations expenditures, sports, recreation, and youth, not previously authorized, $394,000. Are there any questions? Seeing no further questions.
Supplementary Estimates (Operations Expenditures), No. 2, 2024-2025, Department of Municipal and Community Affairs, operations expenditures, sports, recreation, and youth, not previously authorized, $394,000. Does the committee agree?
Agreed.
Thank you.
Supplementary Estimates (Operations Expenditures), No. 2, 2024-2025, Department of Municipal and Community Affairs, operations expenditures, total department not previously authorized, $502,000. Does committee agree?
Agreed.
Thank you. Members, there is a schedule on page 17 that details borrowing authorization, and on page 19 that detail supplementary reserve impact. Are there any questions to these schedules? I'm going to go to the Member from Range Lake.
Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair. After this appropriation, how close will we be to the federally imposed borrowing limit? Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister to the question.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. $3.6 million.
Thank you. I'll go to the Member from Range Lake.
That's very close, Mr. Chair. I know the government has put in a submission to increase the borrowing limit. Can the Minister provide the House with an update on that. Thank you.
Thank you. I'll go to the Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yes, Mr. Chair, so earlier in the fall, or I guess now in the fall, I had written to make that request. I have recently had an opportunity to be in contact with the Minister of Finance for the federal government who has confirmed that the matter is moving forward. We don't have a final confirmation. There is an internal process within the federal government that they go through, but I understand that that is underway. So I had hoped to have a final confirmation of that obviously before we are now in our own budget session but we are confident, given the information that I've received and that the deputy minister has received from his counterpart, that we will receive the amount that we had requested. Thank you.
