I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Thebacha, that Bill 18, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 1, 2008–2009, be read for the first time. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Bill 18 has had first reading.
Motion carried; Bill 18, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 1, 2008–2009, read a first time.
I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Thebacha, that Bill 18, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 1, 2008–2009, be read for the second time.
Mr. Speaker, this bill makes supplementary appropriations for the Government of the Northwest Territories for the 2008–2009 fiscal year.
Bill 18 has had second reading and is referred to Committee of the Whole.
Motion carried; Bill 18, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 1, 2008–2009, read a second time and referred to Committee of the Whole.
Item 19, second reading of bills. Item 20, consideration in Committee of the Whole of bills and other matters: Bill 5, Bill 6, Bill 12, Committee Report 2-16(2), Committee Report 3-16(2), Minister’s Statement 62-16(2), Bill 18, with Mr. Krutko in the Chair.
So with that, at this time, I’d like to ask the Minister responsible for the bill to make opening comments. The Minister of Finance, Mr. Roland.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 1, 2008–2009, requests authority for additional appropriations of $50.317 million for operations expenditures and $106.345 million for capital investment expenditures in the 2008–2009 fiscal year.
To clarify the contents of the bill, the $48.4 million of operation expenditure appropriations includes $15.6 million offset by federal revenues and $32 million for contribution funding for the continuation of community infrastructure projects not completed in the 2007–2008 fiscal period. Funding for these projects was approved and lapsed in 2007–2008.
The $106.1 million for capital investment expenditures includes $11.1 million offset by federal revenues and $95 million in capital carry-overs from the 2007–2008 fiscal period. Major items included in this request for operations expenditures, other than carry-overs, include items that are part of the Building Canada Plan, $11.8 million for the Department of Municipal and Community Affairs for additional contribution funding to community governments for community infrastructure, and $3 million for the Department of Transportation to advance the Yellowknife bypass road.
This is the second year in which the Government of the Northwest Territories has requested a significant amount of carry-over funding from the previous year. I’m confident the changes being implemented to the capital planning process will help lower future requests.
The bill includes changes discussed with Members in response to committee motions during the departmental reviews of the Main Estimates.
That concludes my opening remarks, and I’m prepared to answer questions Members may have.
I’d like to ask the Minister if he’ll be bringing any witnesses. Mr. Roland.
Yes, Mr. Chairman.
Does the committee agree that the Minister brings in his witnesses?
Agreed.
Agreed. Sergeant-at-Arms, could you escort the witnesses in?
Mr. Minister, for the record, could you introduce your witnesses?
Mr. Chairman, to my right is the secretary to the Financial Management Board, Ms. Kathleen LeClair, and to my left is Mr. Charles Tolley, manager of budget development.
Thank you, Mr. Minister. Welcome, witnesses. Are there any general comments in regard to the bill?
Maybe we can begin on page 1, which we’ll defer. We’ll also defer the Schedule, to begin on page 5 of the bill.
Page 5, Municipal and Community Affairs, Operations Expenditures, Community Operations, not previously authorized: $5.344 million.
Bill 18, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 1, 2008–2009, Municipal and Community Affairs, Operations Expenditures, Community Operations, not previously authorized: $5.344 million, approved.
Regional Operations, not previously authorized: $28.843 million.
Bill 18, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 1, 2008–2009, Municipal and Community Affairs, Operations Expenditures, Regional Operations, not previously authorized: $28.843 million, approved.
Total Department, not previously authorized: $34.187 million.
Bill 18, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 1, 2008–2009, Municipal and Community Affairs, Operations Expenditures, Total Department, not previously authorized: $34.187 million, approved.
Moving on to page 6. Justice, Operations Expenditure, Service to Government, not previously authorized: $161,000.
Bill 18, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 1, 2008–2009, Justice, Operations Expenditures, Services to Government, not previously authorized: $161,000, approved.
Courts, not previously authorized, $833,000.
Bill 18, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 1, 2008–2009, Justice, Operations Expenditures, Courts, not previously authorized: $833,000, approved.
Community Justice and Corrections, not previously authorized, $613,000.
Bill 18, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 1, 2008–2009, Justice, Operations Expenditures, Community Justice and Corrections, not previously authorized: $613,000, approved.
Total Department, not previously authorized: $1.607 million.
Bill 18, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 1, 2008–2009, Justice, Operations Expenditures, Total Department, not previously authorized: $1.607 million, approved.
Moving on to page 7. Education, Culture and Employment, Operations Expenditure, Education and Culture, not previously authorized: $9.878 million.
Bill 18, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 1, 2008–2009, Education, Culture and Employment, Operations Expenditures, Education and Culture, not previously authorized: $9.878 million, approved.
Income Security, not previously authorized: $200,000.
Bill 18, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 1, 2008–2009, Education, Culture and Employment, Operations Expenditures, Income Security, not previously authorized: $200,000, approved.
Total Department, not previously authorized: $10.078 million.
Bill 18, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 1, 2008–2009, Education, Culture and Employment, Total Department, not previously authorized: $10.078 million, approved.
Moving on to page 8. Transportation, Operations Expenditure, Corporate Services. Mr. Abernethy.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. In reviewing this supplementary appropriation, I have no problem, given most of the money is coming from the feds or is carried over from the previous year. However, at the beginning of the budget process we were told that the supplementary appropriation available was changed from $25 million to $10 million, as $15 million was transferred to the departments so they wouldn’t have to come back for supps on a regular basis.
In the case of this department, $555,000 minus the $33,000 — $518,000, is being asked for out of that $10 million supplementary appropriation fund that we do have. I was under the impression that the $10 million was basically to be used for emergency cases: things that were not or could not be planned, things that were not foreseen, things that came out of the blue. In the case of the money that’s being asked for here, I’m under the impression that this is something that the departments should have been able to identify and should have been able to plan for and that should be taken out of a portion of that $15 million that was already transferred to them.
Now, I understand the reality that transferring that $15 million to the authorities or the departments wasn’t done until yesterday. At the same time, this is clearly something that we’re going to have a hard time approving if it comes forward in the future, given that it is something that should have been planned and should have been captured within the department as part of that $15 million that was transferred to them.
I was wondering if I could just get the Minister of Finance to talk a little bit about that supp fund and the fact that it was transferred to the authorities and how this relates to that. To me, this is clearly something that should have been able to be planned.
Minister of FMBS, Mr. Roland.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Is the Member referring to the Department of Transportation?
Sorry. We’re on page 8. Transportation, Operations Expenditure, Corporate Services: $518,000, not previously authorized.
Mr. Abernethy, is your question on page 8?
Page 9.
We’re not quite there yet. Okay, we’re on page 8. Transportation, Operations Expenditures, Corporate Services, not previously authorized: $518,000.
Bill 18, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 1, 2008–2009, Transportation, Operations Expenditures, Corporate Services, not previously authorized: $518,000, approved.
Highways, not previously authorized: $3 million.
Bill 18, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 1, 2008–2009, Transportation, Operations Expenditures, Highways, not previously authorized: $3 million, approved.
Total department, not previously authorized: $3.518 million.
Bill 18, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 1, 2008–2009, Transportation, Operations Expenditures, Total Department, not previously authorized: $3.518 million, approved.
Moving on to page 9, Industry, Tourism and Investment, Operations Expenditures, Corporate Management, not previously authorized: negative $33,000.
Bill 18, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 1, 2008–2009, Industry, Tourism and Investment, Operations Expenditures, Corporate Management, not previously authorized: negative $33,000, approved.
Minerals and Petroleum Resources, not previously authorized: $100,000.
Bill 18, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 1, 2008–2009, Industry, Tourism and Investment, Operations Expenditures, Minerals and Petroleum Resources, not previously authorized: $100,000, approved.
Economic Diversification and Business Support, not previously authorized: $555,000. Mr. Abernethy.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. A couple of seconds ago I asked that question on the wrong page. I’d like to ask that exact same question on this page on this item.
Would the Minister of FMBS respond to the question asked previously.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, the area of this supplementary appropriation, as the Member has highlighted…. As we’ve budgeted for the fiscal year, we set aside in our fiscal framework an amount of dollars for supplementary appropriation. At times over the last number of years we’ve…. In fact, the Government of the Northwest Territories has gone over that initial amount.
This year, after being elected and starting to put the budget together, we took the $25 million initially allocated for the supplementary appropriation, and based on the drawdown or a percentage of the drawdown from departments, we took $15 million of that appropriation amount or that amount set aside for supplementary appropriations and gave it to departments. ITI’s share was $90,000 of that. Again, the drawdown represents a percentage across the departments. Obviously, because of the fact that we have exceeded the amount that was set in previous years’ supplementary appropriations, we are sticking to the $25 million figure less now the $15 million that’s been sent out to departments based on a percentage of the drawdown.
Outside of that, there are a number of things that we’re still having to deal with. The reason we did that, as the Member has pointed out…. The reason we’ve allocated part of the supp reserve to departments was so they could do their planning up front and do the budgeting exercise, not come in low and within months have to come in for a supplementary appropriation.
In this case is the fact that within ITI the Western Harvesters’ Assistance Program has been in existence since 1994. Initially it was set aside with matching dollars from communities and organizations — actually aboriginal organizations like hunters’ and trappers’ committees within those organizations — but they’d have to match their dollars before the money could be drawn down. That wasn’t put into the Department of ITI’s budget. It was a common practice to have them come back during the supplementary appropriation when they had signed agreements with the organizations. FMB would review those and agree to put them into the supplementary appropriation package for coming to the House.
As this budget we’re dealing with or the budget we’ve just finished dealing with…. The original planning process was put together, and we started the exercise in summer of last fiscal year. As a government, we have taken over that and made our changes through the budget exercise we’ve gone through. This has found its way on to clear up the amount they’d be needing for this year. So instead of, for example, as we break it down here, Deninu K’ue First Nation, Salt River First Nation, those would have originally come as one single item to a decision paper. It was felt that in this process this allowed the department some flexibility: instead of coming one at a time, to deal with them one time here through the supplementary appropriation.
Mr. Abernethy.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That’s good. I understand the process. I kind of like the process that you’re implementing with respect to giving the $15 million to the departments so they can plan, and I understand the timing on this.
I still think this is something that the Department of ITI could have done some forecasting on and done some planning on. They could have planned for it in the normal budget process, and they wouldn’t be coming back. They had $10 million in supp, which is for emergencies. Now we have $9.5 million for emergencies. Every time we whittle it down on something that should have been or could have been known, I think we’re hurting ourselves down the line just in case we have emergencies — a major forest fire year, losing a bridge here, losing a bridge there, any of those things — which is what that $10 million should be used for.
I do have one question, though. You said that ITI’s portion of that $15 million is $90,000. That seems a little low: $90,000 based on $15 million for ITI doesn’t seem very high.
Mr. Chairman, I stand corrected. Their share is $190,000.
The breakdown — and I might as well give this to Members — was based on the percentage of the drawdown. For the departments that had the larger amounts of drawdown through the exercise over the year, we looked at that drawdown and applied it to the $15 million figure. For example, Executive Offices got $77,000; Human Resources, $800,000; Aboriginal Affairs and Intergovernmental Relations, $54,000; the Financial Management Board Secretariat, $225,000; the Northwest Territories Housing Corporation, $133,000; Finance, $57,000; Municipal and Community Affairs, $168,000; Public Works and Services, $1.381 million; Health and Social Services, $6.137 million; Justice, $1.362 million; Education, Culture and Employment, $2.464 million; Transportation, $1.61 million; ITI, $190,000; and Environment and Natural Resources, $342,000, for a total of $15 million.
As I stated earlier, those numbers don’t compare in a straight-across comparison because the drawdown in the supplementary appropriation over the last number of years has been significantly higher. We felt that on a percentage of drawdown, applying it in this way would allow departments to do the proper planning as we go forward.
As Members are aware, we’ve also set a 3 per cent growth rate, a 3.5 percent total growth rate of government expenditures over the next cycle of our business planning. We’re going to have to sit down and go through that business plan to see if we can in fact meet that target.
Thank you for all of that information. It’s very good. As I said, I liked the plan you put in with respect to distributing that money amongst the departments so they could plan for it accordingly.
No real question, but just a bit more of a statement. In the case of this particular item, as an example, it is something, in my opinion, that should have been able to be planned for. We’re probably going to approve it today. I see no reason not to approve it at this point, giving the department some credit, given the fact that the budget just came down and this is a new process.
In the future, as Cabinet comes to us with some of these supps where they’re asking us to draw down on that $10 million, it may not pass as easily, because we want to be sure that those items that are coming to us in the supps are in fact for emergencies: things that could not be nor would ever have been foreseen or planned for. That’s what we understood the intention was. If items come to us that clearly could have been planned for, we’ll definitely have a lot of questions on those areas, but in this case, due to the timing, not so much. I mean, it is our job to hold the government to account, so the plan was for emergencies. This doesn’t strike me as an emergency. In the future you’ll have to demonstrate to us why this one is an emergency if you’re going to expect us to put down our emergency $10 million fund.
Mr. Chairman, the plan we put in place will require discipline, and this process is a part of that. We would again look forward to trying to make sure we stick to the rules of the new way of doing business. Every supplementary appropriation would come before the House, and departments would have to stand the scrutiny, of course. We would use the same level of measure before even putting it into this document for Members to see.
It will require discipline. It's different from the traditional practice, and we're going to try hard to maintain that. It's going to be quite a jump from previous years' supplementary appropriation. From well over a $50 million drawdown — that's not the actual number; it was over that, but I would have to get that detail — to where we are now is a substantial change. We're going to have to work hard to live within that.
Thank you. On page 9 of the Supplementary Appropriation, No. 1, we're on Economic Diversification and Business Support, not previously authorized: $555,000.
Bill 18, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 1, 2008–2009, Industry, Tourism and Investment, Economic Diversification and Business Support, not previously authorized: $555,000, approved.
Total Department, not previously authorized: $622,000.
Bill 18, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 1, 2008–2009, Industry, Tourism and Investment, Total Department, not previously authorized: $622,000, approved.
Environment and Natural Resources, Operations Expenditure, Corporate Management, not previously authorized: $305,000.
Bill 18, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 1, 2008–2009, Environment and Natural Resources, Operations Expenditures, Corporate Management, not previously authorized: $305,000, approved.
Total Department, not previously authorized: $305,000.
Bill 18, Supplementary Appropriation Act, No. 1, 2008–2009, Environment and Natural Resources, Total Department, not previously authorized: $305,000, approved.
