Debates of February 8, 2010 (day 23)

Thank you, Mr. Speaker,

Whereas caribou have been a source of food and a means of survival for aboriginal people of the NWT since time immemorial;

And Whereas caribou herds migrate across jurisdictions and across international boundaries;

And Whereas the Government of the Northwest Territories has scientific studies that show a decline in caribou herds and deem it an emergency measure under the conservation process to ban all hunting of the Bathurst caribou herd within a specified geographical area;

And Whereas Dene Nation Resolutions #10/11-003 and #09/010-014 propose a means by which all parties can get back on track and be respectful of aboriginal culture and all Northerners by recognizing:

“the Dene will enter discussions and develop a long-term plan with the GNWT on a government-to-government basis to recognize both the inherent rights of the Dene to hunt and their inherent authority to design and implement solutions that will protect, preserve and ensure the survival of caribou for future generations.”;

And Whereas aboriginal people have deemed the GNWT’s recent actions in this regard to be an infringement on their aboriginal rights and treaty rights to hunt for survival and ceremonial purposes;

Now therefore I MOVE, seconded by the honourable Member for Nahendeh, that the Government of the NWT set a place and date to have an emergency meeting with the aboriginal people of the NWT to consider their consultative process and come to an agreement regarding the caribou;

And Further, that the Government of the NWT look at alternative measures to resolve the issue.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. There’s a motion on the floor, The motion is in order, To the motion, The honourable Member for Sahtu, Mr. Yakeleya.

Mr. Speaker, I raise this issue due to the number of people I’ve been talking to in my region around this area here in terms of the importance of aboriginal people having access to their food such as caribou.

Mr. Speaker, I’ve talked to many people who know why it’s very important for us to have this food for our survival. People have said that we’ve been surviving for thousands and thousands of years. Mr. Speaker, actually, I read in a book called “The Alpine Hunters.” There was an ice patch study done in the Mackenzie Mountains that showed evidence from our elders and from scientific data, that there were hunters hunting caribou 5,000 years ago in the Mackenzie Mountains. There was evidence that came back through the scientific analysis of what was found in these ice patches.

Mr. Speaker, I say that the aboriginal people have always hunted for caribou. It’s in our blood. It’s in our life. As one of the elders in Colville Lake said, if you take the caribou away, you are destroying our way of life. You are destroying our life, he said. So, he said, you should not let this happen. We should be working on this issue how we can work together on this important animal here, Mr. Speaker.

Caribou don’t know which jurisdiction is which jurisdiction. They migrate. People in Colville Lake locate themselves right on the migration route of their caribou. So one of the questions I ask is how do we know if this is the Bathurst, Bluenose-East or Bluenose-West? When did we start labelling the caribou? We don’t know, Mr. Speaker.

One of the things that I wanted to say in terms of this motion here is I think we need to really strengthen the consultation process; meaningful consultation. This is why a lot of people are angry. A decision was done in the middle of some good discussions. I am not too sure if a meaningful consultation process was carried out.

The other point, Mr. Speaker, is the labelling of our herds. When did we start classifying this is the Bluenose-East and this is the Bluenose-West? How do you know if it’s Ahiak, Bathurst, Beverly, Porcupine? We start labelling different caribou.

Mr. Speaker, this is not only about the Dene in this area. There are over 1,000 Inuit in Yellowknife. There are Metis in Yellowknife. This is an assault on the culture, on a way of life, on people. There are lots of aboriginal people in Yellowknife, lots in the Sahtu, in Yellowknife. That’s down the region here. This animal was brought up with us. It’s part of our life. It’s in our blood. Traditionally, elders have talked about this animal. There’s no argument from this side here to say yes, we need to look at it, because it shows that we need help.

I haven’t yet seen evidence in terms of the mining, what they have done to this herd. The calving ground is north of the mines. There are big diamond mines up there, three of them that pour billions and billions of dollars. Thousands and thousands of trucks that go up there to those diamond mines, six minutes apart at one time. That’s incredible that we have, in the name of the big dollar to support our economy. That is incredible. I wonder what those poor, poor animals are thinking. How they can survive up there with all that blasting, blowing up the rock, the ground, the vibrations that go across this land. It scares them. What happened to all those herds in those years? One year they’re up to 1,000; next four or five years they’re down to a few hundred. So should we trust the government in terms it’s in their best interest?

Mr. Speaker, there were motions on this in terms of this issue here. The last point I want to say, Mr. Speaker, is that, yes, we do like food. Caribou has given itself to us. Elders teach us how to use it. But, really, the issue for me is about our culture, our way of life, our values and beliefs that caribou has given us. That’s what the issue is. It brings a lot of unresolved issues when you tell a nation of people you cannot do this, you cannot do that, we want you to do this. We have heard this for so many years in our communities. And all that they say is: how can they tell us we can’t hunt caribou? That’s what they’re telling us. They’re crazy to tell us we can’t hunt caribou. We should be working out a process.

Mr. Speaker, I bring this motion because the bigger picture is no matter who wins on this issue here, how are we going to continue building a relationship with our most important partner, the true people of this land, the aboriginal governments who own this land? How are we going to go forward on some big issues like devolution and resource revenue sharing? I think we’re going to have to restart. With this motion I hope it gives an opportunity for the government to look at this again, look at this issue again and look at the consultation process that was rolled out. I’m happy this motion is on the floor. I’ll allow other Members to speak on it. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. To the motion. I’ll go to the seconder of the motion, the honourable Member for Nahendeh, Mr. Menicoche.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I, of course, support this motion. I believe that we didn’t have to be here today. I still stand firm in the belief that had our leadership, our Premier, our Minister of ENR, attended the Dene national leadership meeting in Fort Simpson, we would have come a long way to resolving this issue. But because of the attention, or by the inattention of our government, we have to give it attention, Mr. Speaker.

For me it has always been critical, the fact that aboriginal people are not allowed to hunt. I respect the need for preservation and conservation, but, at the same time, Mr. Speaker, aboriginal people have the inherent right to hunt for food. In fact, our NWT Act says it loud and clear that nothing in the NWT Act, the ordinances, can be made to restrict and prohibit Indians and Inuit from hunting for food, Mr. Speaker. This is the case that we are here today. I believe that the Minister could have… There was a need for a ban. There was a need for a no-hunting zone, but there was no need to restrict aboriginal people from hunting.

I think the government and I think the Minister is wrong in this case. We’ve got precedents all across our great land of Canada, even with depleted species. Aboriginal people go to court and they win all the time, Mr. Speaker. It’s not because they want a wholesale slaughter and make animals extinct, Mr. Speaker, but there is an allowable harvest level that can be achieved for most herds or most species.

I believe that the Minister acted in haste. I don’t think he made the case to myself or to the aboriginal leadership that this is a case where this herd is extinct. In fact, thinking out loud, for myself, for some of the chiefs, I think that 25 caribou per community was something that even that bare minimum is something that the communities were looking at. That’s subsistence hunting, and that’s all the people asked for, Mr. Speaker.

Once again, I do not believe that our GNWT had the power to restrict or prohibit aboriginal people from hunting for food. However, it’s done. But I believe it can be undone, Mr. Speaker, to salvage whatever’s left of the winter hunting season. It’s not lifting the ban, but to allow aboriginal peoples to hunt there, Mr. Speaker. I think the fact that the media, our North has a lot of attention on this issue and the reason why my colleagues have been speaking about this issue over the past couple of weeks is because it’s a very dangerous precedent what the Minister of Environment and Natural Resources has done. It’s something I cannot support. I said it right off at the start and I think that this decision has to be reversed when it comes to First Nations people. The ban should stay. The no-hunting zone should stay. But what should not stay is the right to restrict aboriginal people from subsistence harvesting, Mr. Speaker.

The motion calls for us sitting down, coming to... With willingness we can work towards a solution. But I’m still upset, Mr. Speaker, that we didn’t have to be here today. It could have been done a couple weeks ago. At the same time, I really appreciate Mr. Yakeleya for moving the motion forward. I stand firmly behind that and I’ve got no problems seconding it. I’m really happy about the support that we’re getting from our colleagues for this motion, Mr. Speaker. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. To the motion. The honourable Member for Tu Nedhe, Mr. Beaulieu.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The issue of caribou, this issue about the Bathurst herd is a very tough issue. I heard from people in Lutselk’e and Fort Resolution. I recognize that the inability for them to go in and harvest within the Wekeezhii area has had a really significant impact. However, what impacts them is the right to do so. You have to balance, I guess, an issue of rights and whether or not that is going to be fought in this type of arena, or an issue of declining herd that, according to science, tell us is a potential for extinction.

The way I view this is there is a need for consultation. I think there is a need for consultation of all aboriginal persons that are impacted by hunting if it is one person that comes down from the Beaufort-Delta and chooses to hunt this herd, then the fact that they are moving their rights to go into that area and hunt it has some impact.

I agree with the motion that a consultation should occur. I have had an opportunity to speak to some of the people that have been involved in the decision; some of the Tlicho citizens. The Tlicho citizens, it appears to me, have a mixed reaction to the ban. The reaction seems to be that the Tlicho people are saying we want to go get caribou for food. Some are saying this is the Minister within the GNWT that is trampling on their rights of aboriginal people to be able to harvest food for themselves which, because the barren-ground caribou are not endangered, therefore, at this point they are not endangered. That is because we don’t have our own legislation. At this point, they are not endangered. So there is an issue of their rights and the hunting. Also, the Tlicho people are actually saying this is our area. This is what we choose to do. We worked with the Minister of ENR to impose a ban in this area because we want to protect the caribou. That camp is saying that if we continue to hunt and harvest the caribou, then the caribou will be extinct and then this won’t be a topic of discussion in the future because there will be no caribou.

I believe that there should be a consultation. I believe that is what this motion indicates, that there is a need for consultation with all the stakeholders and not just people that are opposed to the ban but also for the people who are seeing this as a way to conserve the caribou herd. I support this motion for the fact that it is asking the GNWT, Environment and Natural Resources, to go back and sit down with aboriginal people and come up with a solution that allows maybe some subsistence hunting that is necessary. I don’t know how that is going to all roll out, because I don’t know how you make a case to do subsistence hunting. For example, I am a Treaty Indian. I wouldn’t be allowed to hunt under a subsistence law, I suppose, because I could always go to the store and buy meat. However, that discussion has to occur. I guess this motion is one way of giving the government and the aboriginal people who are impacted by this decision an opportunity to sit down and move to the next level and make a decision on whether or not there is going to be some hunting in the Wekeezhii area. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu. To the motion. The honourable Member for Mackenzie Delta, Mr. Krutko.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will be supporting the motion. I feel quite strongly that we have to look at alternative measures to come to a solution to this bypass. I think that there are solutions out there. There have been precedents set in other areas, that we talk about managing the herds, the Bluenose herd, for instance, an area where I come from in which there was actually an agreement between the Inuvialuit, the Gwich’in, the Sahtu to look at bag limits for communities. There again, they did a survey of the caribou. They said they were in crisis. They were down to 5,000 animals. Apparently, 8,000 animals showed up the following year. Again, because we do estimates and not do the long-term survey. I think the same thing applies to the Porcupine caribou herd. There hasn’t been a survey done on that herd since 2001. I think it is important to realize that, if we are estimating numbers, there are ways that we can work around, trying to find solutions to these problems.

Mr. Speaker, other aboriginal organizations throughout the Territories have agreed on their own to shoot bulls and not cows so that you can increase the herd. Look at ways of bag limits so every community has 25 tags so that anybody who wants to go out hunting, say, the Bluenose herd, they can go to the band office, get a tag and go hunting. At least it is a controllable system that is in place for harvesting caribou.

Mr. Speaker, I, for one, feel that this government, on one hand you say it is a conservation measure but on the other hand you are saying, well, you consume. Go ahead and hunt the species over there, over there and down here, but you can’t hunt from here. You are hunting the species. I think if you are putting pressure in one area, someone is going to take a couple thousand animals in one area. It is the still the same type of herd you are talking about.

In regards to the Bathurst herd, the Bathurst herd at one time were three herds. Now we have something like nine herds that are out there. To me, genetically, they are probably all the same animals. You are talking about the type of animal species we are looking at. I think you have to look at the whole species as a whole and exactly the genetics of what this species acquired to be classified as the Bathurst herd.

Mr. Speaker, in Quebec they had a situation in regards to the George River herds which, in 1950, the herd was down to 5,000 animals. Mr. Speaker, in 1975, some 25 years later, they were up to 700,000 animals. So in 25 years they managed to increase to 700,000 animals from 5,000 animals. That is an example of how these animals are able to sustain themselves for thousands of years. That is where we look at statistics, drops and balances. A lot of it has to do with the whole environment that we are in, regardless if it is industrial development, bad fire seasons, looking at exactly the migration routes. Do they go to the same calving areas every year? We are finding out that they don’t. Again, it is important for us to find a way around this problem.

Mr. Speaker, I believe a solution to this problem is exactly what this motion is suggesting, that the government calls an emergency meeting with all co-management boards. The people are affected by this decision. Have a public meeting by way of a public forum. Try to find and come up with workable solutions so that, at the end of the day, there is still a means of aboriginal people sustaining their needs, allowing them to continue to hunt but also have a management system in place of managing the herd.

Mr. Speaker, I think it is important that this government take a look at some of the illustrations that I mentioned in regards to how other herds are being managed. This is not unique just to this species. I mentioned that this is something similar to the problem we are seeing with the Bluenose herd in the Western Arctic. I think it is important to find ways to work with all the co-management boards, have a general principle that we can all agree to, because we are all in this together. It doesn’t matter where the caribou come from or which species they are. We all depend on the sustainability of this herd, but more importantly, the sustainability of our communities. Without caribou, a lot of our communities will not sustain themselves. They will not be able to maintain that traditional lifestyle that they have in those communities, regardless if it is in regards to the Old Crow in the Yukon or Fort McPherson in the Northwest Territories or Wekweeti in the Northwest Territories or right in the centre of all of this.

I was surprised, Mr. Speaker, to watch the news broadcast on Saturday where they were interviewing the chief in Wekweeti, who is clearly not on side with regard to this matter. He stated that he will go hunting. He does not want help from this government. The caribou are right in their community.

If anything, we should have looked at a workable solution to allow everyone the ability to sustain some sort of a needs level but, more importantly, have a system in place that will illustrate how much caribou are being taken by tag limits and making sure they are taking the bulls and having statistics that are acceptable with regard to the scientific traditional community so when we do these estimates, we are close to the ballpark and not estimating what the numbers are.

Again, Mr. Speaker, I think we have to sit down with the aboriginal governments, co-management boards and the people this will affect the greatest, the people in the communities. We have to find a solution to this problem, and going to court is not going to resolve this issue.

I have to make it clear that the land claims agreements, the whole Dene-Metis claims process was to ensure that the aboriginal groups were involved through a co-management system, were involved in the management of the species in the Northwest Territories and not simply leaving it up to a Minister. The Minister gets involved and it’s a question of law and a question of ensuring the integrity of the system is there by way of direction from the boards. That’s what they did regarding the Bluenose issue in the Beaufort-Delta region. The co-management boards got together from the Sahtu, the Gwich’in, the Inuvialuit and came up with a workable solution so they could deal with the Bluenose herd. That number was even lower then with regard to the species.

Again, Mr. Speaker, I ask my colleagues to support the motion on the basis of the direction that it is taking; to find a workable solution out of this problem, get the government to formulate some sort of workshop and have some time to conduct this workshop. We’ll sit down with the co-management boards and aboriginal organizations and see how we can resolve this issue. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Krutko, To the motion, The honourable Member for Frame Lake, Ms. Bisaro.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, at the outset I would like to say I am going to support this motion. I spoke in my Member’s statement about the need for conservation and, in my view, it needs to be the basis of any resolution to this particular disagreement. It should be the only reason that we are discussing this particular issue. The caribou herd, in my view, is in distress and in order to preserve it from extinction there needs to be a solution that considers conservation.

I think we’ve managed to get to a place where we have groups on two different sides and the sides can’t agree. I think we’ve reached there perhaps unnecessarily, but we’re there and we have to deal with the situation we have. I think we’re in danger of becoming even more entrenched than we are right now. I think people are digging in their heels, to a certain extent, and I think we need to get our heels out of the dirt and we need to be as open and invite as many new ideas as possible.

Much of the concern, that I see anyway, comes from the consultation processes that took place. I know the department has given us a listing of all the consultations which took place and I appreciate the fact that the department, I think, has worked fairly hard to meet with various groups and to try to get information to them to try to discuss it with them and to try to reach consensus. But part of the problem, I think, stems from the definition of consultation. Differing people have differing definitions and differing understanding of what consultation is. I think that has created some of our difficulties.

Another problem for me is we have several areas of the NWT who have renewable resource boards. They’ve been established for quite some time and those boards have been working very hard and have managed to reach agreements on how to manage the herds in their area. Those areas are not really, I don’t think, in danger and they are actually doing quite well. They have caribou management in place and they have dealt with the herds. The herds are stabilized and those that are in great danger are actually on the increase, I believe.

Here in the Akaitcho territory, we don’t have any renewable resource board and I think it’s created a different situation. It’s created a difficult situation because we don’t have a specific board to deal with the renewable resources in this area. The Wekeezhii board for sure is there, but it doesn’t encompass the Yellowknives territory, It makes it a complicated and a difficult process, and I think I said that already.

I believe the consultation took place and I think the department, as I said, did a good effort in trying to do the consultation, but the thing that got missed was the agreement. So consultation took place, but agreement did not take place and I think that’s what has brought us to this particular state of the affairs that we’re in today.

I spoke in my statement about the need to find middle ground and I firmly believe that there is a middle ground out there. I firmly believe that if parties on both sides are willing, we will find that middle ground. We will find a spot on this disagreement map where both sides can agree.

The motion that’s in front of us calls for a meeting and I think that’s what is required, We do need a meeting to find that middle ground, but it’s only going to work if people come to that meeting with an open mind, with a willingness to consider any and all possible solutions. Whether they be totally out of this world or not, they have to be put on the table and considered, and as a group, those possible solutions need to be considered. If they are discarded, they’re discarded, but we will be left with one solution that is going to work.

The motion states further that the GNWT look at alternative measures to resolve the issue. I think for me that’s the crux of the issue. That we, again, with an open mind, consider all possibilities. To me, the words “alternative measures” require us to look outside the box and consider what we can.

In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I am in support of the motion. I think it goes to the actions that we need to take to solve this problem and I urge all Members to support it. Thank you.

Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. To the motion. The honourable Member for Hay River South, Mrs. Groenewegen.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, I have spoken to the issue of caribou and the conservation and this issue we have before us with our fellow elected leaders here. I have spoken to it numerous times through question period and through Members’ statements in this House, so I’m not going to add to the length of this debate of this motion today.

I will be supporting the motion and I also don’t want to get into great detail about how this consultation will roll out or pre-empt what the outcome of it may be, just that all parties should enter with an open mind and hopefully resolution will be found. Thank you.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. To the motion. The honourable Member for Nunakput, Mr. Jacobson.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I haven’t really spoken with regards to this. Today I will support the motion with regard to the caribou, due to lack of consultation to accommodate the aboriginal governments or aboriginal people of this area or the people using the herd, to bring all groups together to allow an open expression of the key issues on conservation and aboriginal rights,

Like Mr. Krutko said earlier, in Nunakput, in some of my communities we have to drive almost 300 kilometres one way to go and hunt caribou in our hunting zones because of the bagging system. We, as Inuvialuit, want to conserve our herds for our youth and our grandchildren.

The biggest thing is the approach that was taken on this was not right, It was sort of like blunt force trauma. We have to have an open-minded approach to get this resolved. The people that are impacted, Mr. Speaker, are not us in here. It’s the people in the communities who have to go out and hunt and try to survive. In the communities, not everyone has a government job. We have elders out there and families that rely heavily on the caribou herd. We have to try to take it upon ourselves to try to preserve and not over hunt. That draws another question. What are we going to supplement to the people who can’t hunt the caribou? Are we going to get muskox? Are we going to get bison? What are we going to get? That’s another question that has to be answered.

Today the conservation of the caribou herd has to be sorted out sooner than later with the GNWT and the aboriginal governments. So, like I said, I will support the motion and look forward to a good dialogue with aboriginal governments. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Jacobson. Before we go any further I’d like to draw your attention to the gallery and the presence of former Member Mr. Henry Zoe, who is with us today.

To the motion. The honourable Member for Weledeh, Mr. Bromley.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I’d like to go on record as supporting this motion right off the bat here.

Just the other evening I was reading George Blondin’s book about Yamoria. There’s a chapter in there where he talks about how the elders had to advise the people to not hunt the caribou so strongly, because deep snows and a summer that never happened led to bad condition on the caribou and they were very vulnerable to hunting. The elders got together and said we’ve got to hold off. In fact, they even fed the caribou to help the caribou to get through that winter.

Now, I don’t think we’re quite at that state, but looking across Canada and even parts of Alaska, so many of these caribou herds are in decline. There must be a natural element to it and there’s also, of course, always a human element and that’s where we come in.

We need to respond responsibly. We have quite a bit of science now indicating that we have, indeed, serious concerns with our caribou and that action is needed. Unfortunately, I think we’re dealing with a bit of a failed process here, because the rate that the Bathurst caribou has dropped has been incredible. We went out, we measured the caribou. There was 400,000-plus in this herd. We measured them again and they were declining. I think three years ago when we measured them there was a hundred and some thousand. That’s an amazing decline. That’s like a 70 percent decline already. Then we let it go another three years before we measured this population. By then, of course, they dropped down to 32,000. Now, had we been doing surveys more regularly, everybody would have been together on this and either changing the methods, testing the methods or being convinced and with an opportunity for better information on which to base their decisions and judgments.

That’s part of the thing that’s behind all this. But, clearly, another is the process for establishing management guidelines, Mr. Speaker. Here, I think we have a good record where we have clearly established management boards across the Northwest Territories, those that have been established and in place long enough to have the experience and maturity and so on of working with each other to work effectively. But we now realize there are places in the NWT, in the Northwest Territories where we don’t have those management boards in place, and the Chief Drygeese territory is a good example of that. In fact, we have the Wekeezhii Renewable Resources Board adjacent to us here that has authority, but they’ve really just become established and are faced already with this incredible conservation issue. The measures that WRRB puts in place do not actually apply, as I understand it, to all of the Chief Drygeese territory. That’s something still to be ironed out and the Yellowknives need to be brought into that equation to deal with some of this. They are clearly, not having signed a land claim, part of the management process and the authority that should be consulted.

We need to get together to establish a consultation process that will apply in these areas where co-management boards have not been established. This situation, the degree of conflict here speaks to a failure to establish that process and it’s probably something that we can anticipate happening in other areas, perhaps with other types of wildlife. Partly, as well, though, the science is out there without agreement of everybody. I don’t know what the solution to that is, but certainly getting together and trying to work to all get on one page is part of that. The motion that’s called for… I have to thank my colleagues, Mr. Yakeleya and Menicoche, for bringing this motion forward. I think it speaks to a lot of the concerns we’ve heard over the last two weeks in session here. It calls for an agreed process that is also called for, in fact, in the resolutions that have already been passed, for example, by the Dene Nation. I think that’s already been referred to by Mr. Yakeleya. This is a good motion. It really says, perhaps somewhat belatedly, some of the things that had been established by the Dene Nation motions and the Yellowknives Dene.

In summary, really, it can all be brought together by what the elders have repeatedly told us, and that is it’s only by working together that we’re really going to get there and we can achieve so much. This motion speaks exactly directly to that, as did the Dene Nation motion. Mr. Speaker, I will be supporting this motion and I want to highlight the theme, which is working together. This is a huge issue and I think we know from the overlap with other herds and so on that it does bring into play several of the other co-management and established management bodies that we have in the Northwest Territories. So let’s get this going. Let’s all get together and establish this. This is not something we’re going to recover from immediately and we need a process in place where we don’t have an established process now. I’ll be supporting the motion. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Bromley. To the motion. The honourable Member for Yellowknife Centre, Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, a week ago I talked about this issue -- the caribou issue, that is -- and I tried to frame it around the fact that this is more than just a legal issue that we’re talking about. It’s more than a caribou issue that we’re talking about. It’s also about an issue of trust and relationships. That’ s where the issue really lies, Mr. Speaker. It’s about the rights of aboriginal people being able to hunt caribou. It’s about the rights of aboriginal people being part of the decision whether they can hunt caribou or not.

Mr. Speaker, why didn’t we start with consultation in the view of how can you be part of the decision as opposed to how we can decide your fate? Mr. Speaker, I don’t think it’s too late to salvage the discussion here. I think that could start today. I spoke a week ago about having a caribou summit with the leadership I was referring to, not with endless delegates. I was talking about the leadership. This does not need a legal decision, Mr. Speaker. This is a political decision that could be made in consultation with our colleagues who work in the First Nations governments.

Mr. Speaker, if it was an ideal world, the Wekeezhii Renewable Resources Board would be making the decision, not the territorial government. If it was a perfect world, we wouldn’t now have to send this question to our Supreme Court to clarify do we have the right or not to make this type of decision. But as we all know, it is not a perfect world.

Mr. Speaker, I think that the Minister of Environment and Natural Resources should be working shoulder to shoulder with the chiefs across this Territory to work on a self-ban, if it’s necessary; one that limits numbers, one that identifies tags and a realistic harvest level. Mr. Speaker, consultation, in my view, means that they would have been part of the decision; they would have been part of the destiny; they would have been part of the end results. Mr. Speaker, in my view, there has been very little consultation other than our experts, whether they are right or wrong, who have shown up to say that the numbers are fluctuating. In my view, they are probably, to some degree, correct that the numbers have fluctuated. If I understand it correctly, the snapshots of the herd numbers have only been going back 30 years. Where is the 50-year knowledge on this particular issue? Where is the 100-year knowledge on this particular issue? Mr. Speaker, 100,000 caribou or more just do not disappear or fall off the land in the Northwest Territories. Mr. Speaker, I could be silly here and say maybe they were abducted, but the fact is, things fluctuate in nature. Perhaps the human species has had an impact, but where is the discussion about the wolf cull? Had people thought about the grizzlies that take caribou? I remember last year someone was telling me one wolf takes 40 caribou a year, Recently I read somewhere that the birthing rate of the caribou is very successful, but yet we don’t see that paying dividends in the numbers growing.

So, Mr. Speaker, in consultation with the aboriginal people, we have to take a much longer term vision of this problem than just the last couple of years, just the last survey that someone flew over and counted caribou.

Mr. Speaker, as I said at the very start, I think this is more than a legal issue. I feel very strongly that this is, yes, more than a caribou issue. We have set back relations with First Nations governments for years with this type of step. This decision, I think, could have been made with the decision in partnership as opposed to the decision of this is the way it’s going to go.

In closing, Mr. Speaker, I will be supporting this motion. I think it speaks to a much bigger picture about trying to figure out how do we work shoulder to shoulder with First Nations governments, because we’re going to have to be here a long time and find newer ways to work better and closer together in a meaningful way, and this certainly was not an example of how we should be doing. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. The honourable Premier, Mr. Roland.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As we’ve heard from Members, we’ve heard from the leadership across the Northwest Territories, the people, caribou is a way of life for many across the Northwest Territories and our neighbouring territories in the Yukon and Nunavut. It is so important, in fact, Mr. Speaker, that when the issue of the decline in caribou populations across the Northwest Territories arose, the government-of-the-day started investing money into doing a count, and a re-count, and another count. In those senses, the cumulative amount of money we’ve put on the table as a Government of the Northwest Territories is in the neighbourhood of around $8 million, to make sure that we’ve done the counts, to consult with our aboriginal partners across the Northwest Territories, to ensure that we were doing the right work together to ensure the safety of caribou.

Mr. Speaker, it is easy to see why we as leaders and aboriginal leaders in this House can become so emotional when it comes to the issue of caribou, because many of us walked the land with our parents and grandparents to hunt to bring the meat home, to feed our families, to share with our other extended family that lost theirs that could supply the meat for them.

So, Mr. Speaker, we look at those things and we weigh those things very carefully. This is a decision being made from those afar and in Ottawa or in ivory towers in Toronto, about what we can do as people of the Northwest Territories. This is about the Inuvialuit, the Gwich’in, the Sahtu, the Tlicho, the Dehcho, the Akaitcho, the NWT Metis and residents of the Northwest Territories when it comes to preserving a herd of caribou that could mean more for our future generations if we take the right steps. That’s easy to see, Mr. Speaker, because before the election of this government, the last government, the Government of the Northwest Territories was cost sharing I believe some from the federal government, pulled together a summit, a caribou summit to talk about the serious situation we found our herds in in the Northwest Territories. Almost half a million dollars it cost to hold this summit so that we can talk about the declining herds across the Northwest Territories.

So, Mr. Speaker, consultation has been underway. It has been underway for years. So let’s not forget about the past, because there’s an issue we have to deal with today. The issue that we have to deal with today is a declining herd. The caribou do not respect boundary lines. They do not respect who has authority. They move along freely on the land as the good Lord put them on to do so. If we want to go back to the good word, there’s talk about how we, as people, are supposed to manage the animals that we subsist on, but there’s many a wiser person that can do that than me, Mr. Speaker.

Now, I can recall, Mr. Speaker, hunting with my father, travelling across the Delta by boat, having to leave the Inuvik side and go across the Delta to hunt on the Aklavik side, because there was no caribou on our side in the fall time. I can remember packing caribou in the foothills to get back to our boat, because we had to walk a long ways up to get that caribou so we could bring it home in the fall time to help our subsistence. Even further back than that, we’ve heard Members talk about not just five years, not 10 years, 30 years, 50 years in my father’s time, God bless his soul, he’s no longer with us, but he was in the day when there was no caribou in the Delta. The fact that the Government of Canada had to step in and bring a reindeer herd across to help us subsist and survive on.

In fact, in today’s environment, reindeer are once again starting to fill the gap in the Far North because, overall, the herds are declining. We’ve got co-management boards that we’re a part of, the Government of the Northwest Territories is a part of, that we’ve put together through the land claim agreements and the self-government agreement with the Tlicho where we work together, we do the science together, we look at the traditional knowledge together and we come up with a plan in moving forward. In fact, I think it’s through that work that the fall hunt by the Akaitcho was cancelled, because there was serious concern about the survival of the herd. You don’t take that step lightly, but that step was taken this fall. Now, the issue of being at a meeting may have helped us in clarifying the situation, but, simply, as we’ve heard, the value of the caribou to our people, to our way of life, to our culture is so important that no decision made by any level of government to try and save a herd would be taken lightly.

You know, we talk about our past and our traditional knowledge, when we had access to hunting caribou. I as a young boy, before the Dempster Highway for example -- and I’ll speak of the northern part of the Territory -- before the highway, we used to have to use boats and snowmobiles. Nowadays we have easier access, even in the Akaitcho area by the winter road, access by fast snow machine, access by planes and helicopters to spot where the animals are, easier hunting, quicker access, more powerful guns, more animals being taken. Mr. Speaker, we talk of traditional knowledge and that was very important and helps us today, but today’s environment there’s GPS, which also deals with how we get and how fast we can get to the caribou. Those things have to be taken into consideration,

Mr. Speaker, when we talk about the Bathurst and the one herd, let’s not forget about the other herds that are suffering. But through the science and through the knowledge, through travelling out there with our aboriginal partners to look where the animals are, to see that there could be a sustainable harvest on other parts of herds out there, and in fact that initiative has been taken. It’s been taken with the Tlicho, it’s been offered to the Akaitcho so that people can hunt outside the wintering grounds of the Bathurst because the wintering grounds of the Bathurst are accessible. Let’s think about this: it’s accessible to almost 30,000 people of the Northwest Territories because of where it’s located and the access by highways, by snowmobiles, by planes and helicopters. It is accessible. Yes, we have rules about how we can harvest around planes and helicopters, but it’s easy to spot and tell people where they need to go. That’s something that we have to take into consideration when we weigh these decisions, that the access is one thing that should weigh on all of us.

We can’t allow ourselves to be lost in the real decision. As Members have heard, as I have heard, as people of the Territories have heard, the Dene Nation themselves, the leadership themselves, the aboriginal leadership themselves have taken a stance. They said they wanted the herds to be preserved, that we needed to take immediate steps. That was a motion in 2007: take immediate steps to make sure that we’ve focused on conservation of the caribou.

Those examples exist for those co-management boards that we are a part of when it comes to the low numbers of caribou. The decision is made by the leaders of the regions to hunt bulls only, to restrict the number of hunts that happen. So those initiatives are being taken by aboriginal leaders across the North. In fact, I would say that this motion is a good motion, because it allows us to bring some level of discussion to the table. But we also have committed in this House, prior to the motion, that the Minister will, in fact, set up a process working with the Wekeezhii, working with the Akaitcho, working with the NWT Metis when they make their recommendations, because it is not one group that affects the herd. It is a number of groups that affect the herd. There is a commitment to pull them together and come up with a harvest management plan going forward. But in the interim, when you look at the science, the numbers, the amounts being taken on an annual basis, one year of almost 7,000 animals, what that would do to a herd of 30,000. That is a substantial hit on a herd. Let’s not ignore that in our political debate. Let’s not ignore that while we discuss the fate of the caribou.

Mr. Speaker, we only want to do what is right for our future generations. We want to make sure that our future generations have caribou to harvest, that we won’t be having to, for long periods of time, go to the bison or bring further reindeer to offset the caribou that have left because our combined responsibility as leaders in the North to put aside some of those differences, who have power, but to go from the herd first. In fact, we are so concerned about it, that we don’t get distracted about who’s got authority, that in fact, in speaking to my Cabinet, I said let’s set that question forward. Let’s deal with that. Let’s have someone deal with that question. Because far too often when tough decisions need to be made, it becomes, well, who has the authority.

Mr. Speaker, we are going to deal with that question. But that question alone will not save the herd, will not save caribou for future generations if that herd, in fact, is to disappear. What is going to save that herd is what we, as people in this place we call home, take action on, and that is to ensure that we preserve the herd for our future generations. That is my children, your children, and our grandchildren. So what is it going to be? Is it going to be the people or is it going to be the herd and the future generations? I say the future generations are where we should put our focus. That is where we should be aiming for. That is our responsibility collectively. It is not about who is calling the shots.

Mr. Speaker, who is going to be known as the last one who fired the last shot in the Bathurst herd? Let’s not get there. What we are trying to offer is a temporary solution to give an opportunity for the herd to last so that the Wekeezhii, the Akaitcho, the Metis and us can come up with a plan for the future so that we can help the caribou. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Roland. To the motion. The honourable Member for Inuvik Twin Lakes, Mr. Robert McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I had a lot of things that I wanted to say on this particular motion, but listening to all the Members talk, I think most of the things that I wanted to say are pretty well covered.

I had heard some comments about survival of our people and destroying a way of life, and talk about a traditional way of life, which is all true. I talked with some of the old-timers and they say we know nothing about the traditional way of life and how they had to go and harvest and how they had to go to look after the caribou. I always remember, in 1998, I was driving the Dempster Highway and ran across a well-respected elder from the Mackenzie Delta from Fort McPherson. He is no longer with us today. I ran into him at the border. The back of his truck was full of caribou guts. I asked him what he was doing. He said, well, I am driving along the highway picking up caribou guts from the side of the road. He said, we tell people that we look after our animals ourselves and we are not setting a very good example. So he was picking them up and he was bringing them to the dump so they are not littering the side of the road. I thought that was so admirable, that somebody didn’t want people to think badly of the way we look after the caribou that he is taking it upon himself to pick them up and throw them away.

I read in the paper about certain aboriginal groups that cancelled their fall hunt because they had some concerns with the survival of the herd. I thought that was leadership. That was wisdom. I commended that at this point where we are today.

Back in 2006, I think when I sat as a Regular Member, there was a caribou summit and they talked about 120,000 animals. I hear today we are down to 30,000. That is four years. That is four years we have been talking and doing nothing for four years and the herd continues to decline. We will talk for the next four years and we will talk the herd into extinction. And then what? I never want to get the point to where I have a conversation with my soon-to-be four-year-old grandson and he’ll ask me, what about the caribou? I said, well, sorry, grandson; I was exercising my aboriginal right and wasn’t concerned about or thinking about you. I wanted to get what I can when I can. I wasn’t concerned about you and yours. Let’s cook some more pork chops, because we have no more caribou to cook. There are things like that that we need to take all these into consideration.

We talk about consulting. We can consult until we are blue in the face, but I see things very simply. The simple fact of the matter is, there is a serious concern today with the survival of the caribou herd. Is it not our duty as stewards of this land to protect them and not be worried about, as somebody said, who has authority or who is calling the shots. We have a duty to do. I think we should be leaders and show some wisdom and take it upon ourselves to protect the herds. They can’t survive without us. They are at a disadvantage.

You watch TV and I was watching something. I think it was something back east. It was down south somewhere where they were driving along the side of the road. They were blasting at the caribou even though they were told that there wasn’t very many of them. They were interviewing a guy from down there. He said, well, it is my aboriginal right. The guy said, well, there’s not many left. He said, it is still my aboriginal right. They are driving trucks and they are firing off the side of the road and throwing them in the back of the truck. That is not the aboriginal way. It shouldn’t be.

We do have a traditional way of life. Caribou have sustained us for generations. I think it is time that sacrifices we make today will benefit down the road. I think we have to take that very seriously. I look at all those groups that are taking it upon themselves to recognize the fact that herds are in danger and they do need our help. They are taking some steps into doing what they can to preserve the herd. That is wisdom. They will have to live without for a while, but they are willing to do that. I think that is real wisdom.

We can consult, I said, until we are blue in the face, but I think it is time for us to step up too. We can’t quit playing politics with the survival of the herd. That is what this is. It is politics. Survival of the herd is the most important thing. I can guarantee you, and from the numbers and from some of the comments I heard, in a few years we will have no more caribou. Like someone said, who wants to shoot the last one? Once we do that, who will we blame? Because we are always blaming somebody. It is always somebody else’s fault. But in this particular case, we will have nobody to blame but us, because we had an opportunity to do something about it and we sat on our hands and did nothing. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. To the motion. The honourable Member for Deh Cho, Mr. Michael McLeod.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The temporary measures put in place by our government until such time as the Wekeezhii board puts a long-term plan in place has raised a lot of discussion across the Territories, in my communities and with the residents that I represent, because we also harvest from this herd. Most of the communities in my riding, the chief and others, will make an organized hunt and come and harvest from this herd in the Tlicho area, as I did along with other friends for many years. Of course, it is a shock. I mean, it’s a shock that I think some of us have recognized for some time, that the herd has depleted down to a mere 32,000 animals. It’s also a shock for all of us that we, as aboriginal people, will not be able to hunt; something that we’ve done for many, many years.

I think it’s time, there’s still time and there’s still opportunity for us to learn, to educate ourselves on how to save the caribou herds and also to look at other jurisdictions, Mr. Speaker, because worldwide, caribou has been a conservation mystery to scholars, to hunters, to the scientists and nearly every population of caribou has a volatile and a very storied history and have been prone to endangerment due to wide fluctuations in their populations. Many of the caribou populations around the globe have, to date, run to extinction. The Dawson caribou subspecies, for example, of the Queen Charlotte Islands, became extinct around the time of the signing of the Treaty 11. Speculation of this herd that became extinct includes a number of things including habitat disruption, disease and, of course, over hunting. Habitat was destroyed due to uncontrolled logging practices, many new diseases were introduced to that herd as a result of bringing deer from the mainland and over hunting by the island residents that were in the area. The Peary caribou, a herd a little closer to us, the subspecies in the High Arctic, went from 40,000 animals in 1961 to a low of 700 in 2009.

Mr. Speaker, the Government of Nunavut proposed an intensive Baffin Island study after research in 2008 and 2009 showed that there was only 170 caribou that were counted in the area spanning roughly 80,000 kilometres. With a growing population of 30,000-plus in Nunavut, I would ask how many families can they expect to feed on the low population of caribou in that area. In order to do that, for some families that traditionally hunt caribou, others would have to go without. So who would decide who gets to exercise the right to hunt, and traditionally hunt, and who would also decide who doesn’t? It’s an impossible question to answer, I would think, since the primary contribution causes of reduced numbers are thought to be over hunting and climate change. I think common sense would dictate that drastic measures have to be taken to ensure that the herd survives.

In Alberta the herd native to the mountains they populate now require protection within the range that they live, or habitat, the Caribou Mountains. In the Caribou Mountains of British Columbia there are very rare sightings, if any at all. It’s ironic, because this is an area that was named for the abundance of this animal. Caribou used to habitat the regions as far south as Washington State, Idaho and even New England, but now they’re only represented there in the names of lakes, parks and summer camps.

Around the globe there are a number of factors that have reduced and made extinct caribou populations, mostly in combination with adverse impacts from over hunting, habitat destruction, overgrazing, disease and starvation. For some of the factors there is no easy solution, such as starvation and disease. There is no means of control. So governments have to choose how they can control factors that are achievable, and that’s the behaviour of humans. Most jurisdictions recognize that the humans’ right is second to the animals’ preservation and conservation and only happens when the animals’ existence is ensured and measurable growth is observed.

In another part of the country in recent history, Greenland saw a dramatic drop in caribou herd populations from 40,000 in 1961 to a mere 9,000 in 1993, and suspended hunting for the time from 1993 to 1995. The subsistence users and hunters really had a heated debate over the hunt. What the ban achieved at that time was reduced pressure and also gave the people from that area the ability to do a more focused effort to study the barren land caribou population. In the end, the studies that followed showed the herd to be healthier than they had originally anticipated and the government-of-the-day stated that the ban on hunting could be lifted sooner. But hindsight is 20/20, of course, and when members of the Greenland government looked back in time they always can say that they acted appropriately and responsibly and the best interests of the herd was on their conscience.

Mr. Speaker, desperate times call for desperate measures. Normally, an ethical government shouldn’t deprive its citizens of rights they normally enjoy unless the suspension of those rights stand to benefit all of its citizens by protecting the very subject of the very rights that they now enjoy. We need to ask ourselves: do we act on the side of caution and allow this herd to recover unmolested, or forever manage them at the margin of their existence?

There’s a lesson to be learned from other resources in Canada that collapsed because of government, because of industry and because citizens failed to act. One can draw a parallel between the caribou and the Atlantic cod fishery. In the early 1990s, Canadians watched as the northern cod fishing stocks collapsed due to a...(inaudible)...of just 1,700 tonnes in a fishery that yielded millions of tonnes of fish every year for centuries. The very people that protested the conservation measures proposed by the government, based on their rights to maintain their livelihood, are now destitute because the government upheld human rights and neglected to protect the resource. Needless to say, the stock has, to this day, not recovered.

Historically, it always has been a government policy to err on the side of caution. Where it hasn’t and where caution is thrown to the wind, tragedies ensue. Over its short history and with the assistance of aboriginal people, not to the exclusion of them, the GNWT has managed several wild resources back from the threshold or at least very near extinction. Among them are wood bison, muskox and polar bear. All of these successes were due to restrictions on hunting. It wasn’t the lack of involvement, but the dedicated cooperation of aboriginal and non-aboriginal of the NWT alike that allowed for these success stories to happen. Once more, the Government of the Northwest Territories is asking all its citizens to support and cooperate with these emergency measures to allow for the expeditious recovery of the Bathurst caribou herd. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. McLeod. To the motion. The honourable Member for Range Lake, Ms. Lee.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I might be repeating s some of the things that have already been said, but I feel it’s important that I add my voice to this important debate.

Mr. Speaker, I feel it’s really important for us all to concentrate and be very clear about what this is all about. We are talking about extraordinary measures taken to respond to an extraordinary emergency situation we are faced with. It is important that all leaders in and out of this House understand clearly and act responsibly about the decisions we are making on this issue and how we inform our public about this issue.

Here is what I know, Mr. Speaker, for sure, and what my decisions are based on in my support for the interim emergency measure. This emergency issue before us is about one thing and one thing only. It’s about protecting a caribou herd that is so vital to the survival of the culture and livelihood of our aboriginal peoples in the North Slave area. The ban on hunting of this caribou herd was issued by the Minister of ENR in December 2009, supported by the Cabinet, because it was absolutely necessary. The emergency measure was necessary because the barren-ground herd needed protection this winter hunting season. It could not wait any longer.

Let us remember that this ban is an interim emergency measure. It’s an interim emergency measure. Interim means this is a temporary, not permanent, measure to deal with the emergency situation. The interim emergency measure is in place only until such time the responsible body, the Wekeezhii Renewable Resources Board, has a chance to address this issue. Hopefully sooner than later.

The emergency interim measure was necessary because the board was not able to meet in time to address this urgent issue. Emergency means a number of things, It means it’s urgent. Urgent means not a lot of time. Emergency also requires a response that is appropriate for the nature of the emergency, No more, no less.

Mr. Speaker, in ordering this emergency interim measure, government has taken mitigation measures to assist aboriginal residents with options of obtaining other sources of meat and other herds of caribou meat.

Mr. Speaker, this interim emergency measure was issued because the herd is deteriorating at an alarming rate and we cannot sit back and watch another hunting season go by without taking action. The job we have in front of us is to do everything we possibly can to save this herd and do it without delay.

Mr. Speaker, our best scientific info tells us the herd has declined from 100,000 in 1996 to 32,000 this year, Who is at fault for this decline in caribou is irrelevant in this emergency. We know there are a number of factors that are probably contributing to the low numbers of caribou. The important fact is that the caribou number is on the verge of extinction. Unless we take action, we may not have any more barren-ground caribou in a few years to even talk about what to do or whose fault it was that the herd is gone. God forbid if it became extinct.

Mr. Speaker, the choice is we save this herd, then they go extinct. If they did go extinct, we would have plenty of time to argue about whose fault it is and if we are able to revive it, I am sure there will be lots of credit to go around as well. Mr. Speaker, if this herd became extinct, the most severely impacted people will be our aboriginal people who rely on this for their sustenance, I have to tell you, Mr. Speaker, it is not just ENR and the scientists saying that the herd is on the verge of extinction.

Many aboriginal leaders and leaders have been telling me this personally either at Wal-Mart or Tim Horton’s or when I visit their homes and all around the Territories around the leadership tables. Mr. Speaker, many aboriginal people have been telling me for the last number of years that caribou is acting funny, that they are behaving and calving abnormally. Places where there used to be hundreds of thousands of caribou, they don’t see them anymore. Mr. Speaker, this is traditional knowledge that we need to rely on.

Mr. Speaker, in a few years, if we were left with lamenting about the barren-ground caribou that no longer exists, I need to know, as a leader of this Legislature, that I did everything within my power to do something about it when we had a chance to do it. Perhaps we are all wrong about the numbers and maybe we’re naming the herds all wrong and counting them all wrong -- because plenty of people out there have been telling us we couldn’t do anything right about this -- but let me ask you this: what if they’re right? What if really there are only 32,000 caribou out of 400,000 strong that there were? Should we allow another 5,000 to 7,000 to be harvested this year knowing that it could be true, that there are only 32,000? Should we allow the cows and the pregnant cows to be harvested? What does that mean? I don’t hunt, but 7,000 saved could mean 20,000 in two years.

Mr. Speaker, in this emergency situation we must give our benefit of doubt in the interest of protecting the caribou herd. Mr. Speaker, I have a difficult time understanding the claim that there has been a lack of consultation. I want to tell you, that unless you have been living under a rock, we have been talking non-stop about the dwindling number of caribou for almost the entire time I have been here for 10 years. Now we have a real possibility that the Bathurst Caribou is almost extinct and, as I said earlier, I have heard many aboriginal leaders discuss this in their leadership meetings. Finally, Mr. Speaker, as someone who spent some time in law school, I know that no rights are absolute, no legal principles are absolute. More often they are about balancing of rights and often these rights are conflicting from one another. Rights and legal principles are about establishing human relationships in an orderly respectful way so that we can survive and prosper as a civil society. What I know for sure, is that the barren land caribou need help from us and they need help now. The interim, temporary, emergency, urgent measure is one action to help them and that is what I am prepared to support. Thank you Mr. Speaker.

The honourable Member for Monfwi, Mr. Lafferty.

[English translation not provided.]

Mr. Speaker, I would just like to touch on some key points that have been addressed here today by the Legislative Assembly Members. One of the highlights is, of course, the decline of the caribou herd. We are facing a crisis here, also preserving our traditional harvesting, saving our caribou herd for the Northwest Territories.

We hear there is more than one herd, Also, thinking about the future, we talk about our younger generation, our great-great-grandchildren, the importance of working together, the GNWT, other governments, other First Nations. We all need to come together on this particular piece of work that’s important to us.

Mr. Speaker, this conservation issue has been an ongoing discussion for as long as I know. The discussion, everybody would know, everyone around here, a decision was made down the valley a few years back that we can only go out shooting bulls as opposed to cows because of the decline in caribou. So this is nothing new, Mr. Speaker. We are faced with a crisis. These are also interim measures, a short period that we are currently dealing with until such time as Wekeezhii Renewable Resources deal with the issue at a public level. Mr. Speaker, there is also a co-management agreement that is before them that they will decide on.

Mr. Speaker, we all agree, as a Tlicho person, I want to conserve my culture and tradition. I will continue to hunt outside the prescribed zone. In my travels through Whati or Gameti, I will continue to hunt with my people to keep the tradition alive, I’m hoping others will follow or I may follow others that were before me.

Our ancestors have always told us to respect wildlife. Once you disrespect it, it will be destroyed. Mr. Speaker, most elders agree but are confused because of the miscommunication or they are misinformed. Whether it be the general public, whether it be in committee meetings, there needs to be more transparency. There needs to be more discussions that need to take place, There are also concerns about the caribou herd, as we speak today. I am sure they are watching us as well, They are depending on us for our next move.

Mr. Speaker, I’ve also spoken to a young individual from the community of Behchoko. This young individual is also concerned about the future generation, the future caribou herd declining. He even stated that when he’s 80 years old he wants to see his grandchildren or great-grandchildren to continue harvesting, to continue to carry the drums that we use, traditional garments that we use. So I feel that those are important pieces of work that are before us to consider. Also to consider having the youth involved in the decision-making. They’re the ones we are talking about. Yes, we’re here around the table and we probably won’t be remembered in the next 30 or 40 years, but it’s the youth we’re doing it for.

Mr. Speaker, I just want to close off with a small story, a history of the Dene people. Our traditions, our knowledge, our way of doing things is rooted in our oral tradition. The elders tell stories to us about our history and to help guide us with our daily lives today. Mr. Speaker, these stories go a long way back, as far back as when man and all animals were one, one language they spoke. They only became distinct from each other to fulfill their roles, to help each other. They divided into whether it be eagles, bears, and, yes, caribou as well. The story is common throughout the Dene Nation across the Northwest Territories, about the boy who becomes a caribou. He dreams of caribou every night and eventually he was called back to the caribou herd and he became the leader of the caribou. The Dene people are ultimately connected to the caribou. The caribou are part of us, always have been, always will be.

To conserve ourselves, our way of life, we must conserve the caribou. Mahsi, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. The honourable Member for Thebacha, Mr. Miltenberger.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Northern history stretches back over thousands of years, a rich and full history. Through that history, rich and full as it is, the caribou and the aboriginal people march over time, over the centuries linked together, as my colleague Mr. Lafferty indicated. It is very critical that we recognize that fact. As a government, we are aware of that link, of the need to respect that and we intend to do that, but there has never been a time in the past as there is right now where the pressures on caribou, on this Bathurst herd, are so great. The caribou need our help. We have to be there for them, but we can do this as well as respect the aboriginal right to harvest and we can do both. This is not one without the other, because there is an inextricable link going back for the centuries.

Mr. Speaker, it is simple. We must make the right decisions in the short-term to allow the longer term process to take place with the Wekeezhii, with the Akaitcho and with the Metis, and we are committed to that. We just want to make sure, as all have said, that future generations in fact have caribou to harvest, to tie to their culture, to their spirits.

We have heard, and we are listening very carefully here, to what we’ve heard today and we are very close. The Tlicho, the Metis, most of the South Slave people agree that this is a necessary step. We are working with the Yellowknives, we are very close, and we must not forget all the good work that’s been done up and down the valley by the co-management boards as they’ve dealt with these very, very difficult issues.

As we get through this hunting season, and I’ve indicated this before as well, we are going to be engaged in a process and it’s going to be very difficult as the Tlicho, the Akaitcho, the Metis and the other stakeholders try to come together to have a Bathurst management plan. That is going to be our challenge going forward past this hunting season.

I thank all of my colleagues for their comments. It’s all been very helpful. I think it’s very good for the people of the North to hear this. Two things bring out the passion in Northerners I’ve noticed over the years as an MLA: water and caribou. Today it’s caribou. So thank you all very much. I thank the mover of the motion, the seconder and as this is direction to Cabinet, while we’ve had our say and a chance to provide our feedback to the people and to this House, we will await the direction from the Members and we will be abstaining from the vote. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. I will allow the mover of the motion some closing remarks before we go to the vote. Mr. Yakeleya.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to also thank all Members of the House for their thoughts, for their passion, for their analytical thinking in terms of this issue. It’s a very big issue. It’s good that the people of the Northwest Territories hear the peoples’ government talk about a very important species in the North.

Mr. Speaker, the motion that I’ve moved in this House is to consult; consult with each other, consult with the aboriginal governments and show respect to the aboriginal peoples and to the aboriginal governments.

Mr. Speaker, the comments about this animal, you know, thinking back when we used to hunt, and we still hunt, the joy of the hunters when they go out and get a caribou, you know that feeling. Mr. Premier talked about that. It reminds me of when I went out with some elders and people, out hunting and you know this animal is going to feed a lot of good people, the animal is teaching you something, the traditional knowledge about this when they skin the animal, how you skin it, how you are supposed to be around it, there’s lots of values and beliefs. Most importantly, you know when you take this animal and you bring it back to your family, you can see the joy in the children’s faces and the family’s when you start cooking it, making meat out of it.

You know, we talk about this animal being here for thousands and thousands of years. We could not survive without them. They can survive without us. However, we have disturbed their way of life. The first thing the elders say to me: why did you put collars on them, that’s traumatic for the animal, they are very sensitive, they’re very holy and very clean. My elders said that when you put a caribou there and you put a collar on the caribou, it’s just like us having a grizzly bear come and attack us. It’s not good for them. There’s traditional knowledge like that that’s in our communities.

We have lived with these caribou for thousands and thousands of years. My people know about conservation measures. Otherwise, we wouldn’t be here. This animal would have been extinct a long time ago. We should give weight back to our people in the community. Tell us how to deal with this. Why is the caribou birthing but having calves two weeks late? Something’s telling us they’re having calves two weeks late, why is that? Like someone said, we should go to the elders and talk about that.

This motion talks about consulting, this motion talks about maybe sitting down with people. We do it right. We do it with the aboriginal governments, as the motion has said from the Dene Nation, passed by Edward Sangris, seconded by Grand Chief Sam Gargan in terms of lifting the ban and looking at how we sit down. Another motion about coming together. Mr. Speaker, we listen to our people. We have to have faith in our people and give weight to the traditional knowledge.

Mr. Speaker, we talk about future generations and Mr. Miltenberger is right; this issue here on water, I look forward to the day when we’re going to have a good discussion on water, because all that poison is coming down the river from the Alberta tar sands to the Bennett Dam, coming down. Pretty soon there’s not going to be any for us. Maybe we’ll be extinct; we can’t drink the water. I know he has some strategies and I’ll certainly support him, but those things should be called emergency measures in Canada.

Mr. Speaker, I wanted to say there are lots out there. We grew up with the Dene laws. My friend Mr. Bromley talked about Yamoria. His law is signified in Bear Rock, the three beaver skins, two arrows in the Mackenzie River that complements the Bear River and the Mackenzie and the smoke in Tulita. His laws were there passed down to us. Just recently now we started to operate in the court of law, man-made laws to tell us how we should operate and how we should be with these animals. How come we don’t listen to our own laws? We do but it is not being taken very seriously. There are laws around handling animals, laws around for handling the meat, for cutting it, for hunting it. It seems like these laws are lost.

Mr. Speaker, now we talk about this motion. We talk about it because it is part of me and, as Mr. Lafferty said, we are connected to it. I can’t separate the spiritual part of it. That is who I am. Too bad caribou is in us. It is in my blood, in my heart and in my soul. I can’t take it. How can you do this to our people and say you can no longer hunt in this specific area? Yet they have thousands of trucks that go by there every year where the diamond mines are, the three big holes up there for diamonds. That is something that should have been done about destroying our land.

Mr. Speaker, I just want to close off saying that in Section 25 of the Charter of Rights, that certain rights that aboriginal people have that are protected. That is our shield of special provisions that we have protection. Rather than do the courts, the government says, let’s go to court and decide. My motion says that we sit down and consult each other and work it out. Let’s discuss this as leaders. This government says let’s call out the lawyers. Our people say let’s call out the hunters. We have rights too. Let’s get tied up into the court issue.

Mr. Speaker, this here, this consensus style of government is really taking a hit today, as I see it. At the end of the day, they state it is us against them. At the end of the day, the interim measure says you still are unable to hunt. This motion says let’s discuss them and work out our solutions here. In my view, meaningful consultation has been put aside. We talk about relationships, future generations, trust building. We really have to think about those words and how we use them, especially with aboriginal governments, aboriginal nations with this government here. Even thinking about in relationship to the culture of aboriginal people, they have sacrificed enough for us to be here; tremendous amount of sacrifice.

If we look at just one instance such as the residential school, we would have been extinct. That never happened. So we talk about trust, it’s a big issue here. We are talking about a very important animal here in terms of this caribou. I think it’s a really good start as to where do we go from here, Mr. Speaker.

I want to thank Members here for really talking passionately about something that’s important to them. Wherever they’re from, whatever knowledge you have about this wonderful animal that has sustained us for thousands and thousands of years. That’s what we need in this Assembly here.

Mr. Speaker, for the record, I would like to ask for a recorded vote. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. The Member has requested a recorded vote. All those in favour of the motion, please stand.

Recorded Vote

Mr. Yakeleya, Mr. Krutko, Mr. Bromley, Mr. Menicoche, Mrs. Groenewegen, Mr. Beaulieu, Mr. Hawkins, Mr. Jacobson, Ms. Bisaro.

All those against the motion, please stand, All those abstaining from the motion, please stand.

Mr. Lafferty; Ms. Lee; Mr. Miltenberger; Mr. Roland; Mr. McLeod, Deh Cho; Mr. McLeod, Inuvik Twin Lakes.

Results of the recorded vote: all those in favour, nine; opposed, zero; abstaining, six. The motion is carried.

---Carried

The honourable Member for Sahtu, Mr. Yakeleya.

Mr. Speaker, I seek unanimous consent to go to item 5 on the orders of the day.

---Unanimous consent granted.

The honourable Member for Sahtu, Mr. Yakeleya.