Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, I am here to present Supplementary Estimates (Infrastructure Expenditures), No. 1, 20222023. This supplementary estimates document proposes a total increase of $83.6 million, comprised of the following items:
·$64.7 million for infrastructure expenditures funding for projects that were not completed in 20212022. This amount is fully offset by lapses in appropriations in 20212022;
$9.9 million to support priority health information systems. This amount is fully offset by revenues received from the federal government and other funding partners;
$5.3 million to support the Redknife River Bridge replacement project;
$2.3 million to support increased costs related to the Hay River Fish Processing Plant; and.
$1.3 million to support the acquisition and setup of a new child and family services program space in Fort Smith and Fort Providence. This funding is offset by a reduction in operations expenditures.
That concludes my opening remarks, Madam Chair. I would be happy to answer any questions Members may have.
Thank you, Minister. I'll now open the floor to general comments. Member for Yellowknife North.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I heard the Minister of Finance say that quite a bit of the carryover was offset by the total amount lapsed. Can I just get how much money this sup is lapsing? Thank you.
Thank you. Minister responsible for Finance.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, it should be $64,740,000 I believe, Madam Chair. Let me just confirm that or actually, I'll just ask the deputy minister if he has the page open in front of him.
Thank you. Deputy minister MacKay.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Lapsed appropriations for 20212022 are $11,107,000.
Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Okay, I have a different number of what the total lapsed is. And so perhaps I can just get someone to help me understand why you can come to different numbers of what the lapsed funding is and perhaps a bit of an explanation of carryover funding. Thank you.
Thank you, Member. Minister of Finance.
Thank you, Madam Chair. We have the right page out now but let me, if I may, I'll ask Mr. Courtoreille to answer it, since he has that page.
Thank you. Mr. Courtoreille.
Thank you, Madam Chair. So the total amount of lapsed funding is broken down into two components.
Under the tangible capital asset category, there's approximately $115 million which is being lapsed. And then under infrastructure contributions and deferred maintenance, the previous number quoted by the deputy of $11,107,000. Thank you.
Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.
Yes, thank you, Madam Chair. So I'm just going to say $125 million. About $125 million in lapsed funding which, my understanding, carryovers mean, you know, if something got delayed and we just have put it into the next another fiscal year, a future fiscal year, but we're still planning this spending whereas a lapse means it's no longer approved by the Cabinet or the legislature and so it may never come back, or it would have to rego through the process.
One of the problems I have is that when you look at what's actually tabled, it's not really clear and you're not really able to figure out when something's lapsing because if it's lapsing, you're not reasking the legislature. It just kind of disappears. So it's not clear by the tabled documents to figure out what exactly is lapsing. So I was hoping the Minister could give us a bit of a rundown of what makes up that $125 million that we are no longer spending on capital. Thank you.
Thank you, Member. Minister of Finance.
Thank you, Madam Chair. So if I'm understanding correctly, just the idea of trying to show the lapsing rather than showing only the carryovers and in a different manner, or. I'm not entirely sure, Madam Chair, I apologize as to how to solve this problem for the Member.
Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I guess I'm just hoping the Minister can tell me what is lapsing.
I note as we go through department by department, lapsed money doesn't really show up so I can't ask what's lapsing there individually. You know, it kind of just disappears. If we could have a breakdown of what's lapsing, thank you.
Thank you. Minister of Finance.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, may I direct that to Mr. Courtoreille, please.
Thank you. Mr. Courtoreille.
Thank you, Madam Chair. So in the briefing material provided to Members, there is a series of tables, which was broken out by project and by department. And in those tables, Members will see a difference between the free balance that's left over in a project and the amount that is being recommended for carryover. The difference between those two columns would be the amount lapsed by project. Thank you.
Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.
Yes, thank you, Madam Chair. This was one of my continued frustrations with how we do this, is all of the briefing materials we are provided are not public so I actually am not allowed to refer to them or speak to them. Would we be able to make that table, which shows the difference of carryover versus cash flow, public? Thank you.
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, let me take that one away. I will say we have changed the way we report on materials and information over the last few years, and I will go and have some conversations about what is here, what reasons there may be for and against, and get back to the House with that information.
Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.
Yes, thank you, Madam Chair. You know, I struggle how to even ask questions when this happens.
So the table that we are not supposed to refer to but was referred to previously, it shows the department, it shows what they previously got and it shows the free balance, and then you can tell what's lapsed. But by department, it doesn't tell you any projects. It just tells you the department. So you have no idea, and there's no ability to know the project that is actually being lapsed. I guess would it be possible to get a public list of what actual projects are not being completed by the GNWT anymore? Thank you.
Thank you. Minister of Finance.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, that information certainly is available, and I expect yes, I would think that we should be able to find a way to put that information forward, Madam Chair. Yes, thank you.
Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.
Yes, thank you, Madam Chair. And I guess one of the prime examples is that in the publiclytabled documents, there's nothing for the Municipal and Community Affairs, but I believe that the entirety of the community infrastructure budget for Municipal and Community Affairs is being lapsed. And I really don't believe we didn't give them their money. So if someone can illustrate any of what's going on with MACA as lapsing. Thank you.
Thank you. Minister of Finance.
I'll direct that to the deputy secretary, please.
Mr. Courtoreille.
Thank you, Madam Chair. In terms of the infrastructure funding for MACA, they're budgeted for, I believe, $29 million to allocate that out to all the communities. And that allocation has been completed, and there's no funding being lapsed. Thank you, Madam.
Thank you. Member for Yellowknife North.
Thank you, Madam Chair. You know, I'm going to ask no further questions because I feel I'm unable to ask any questions without specifically looking at a confidential document. And I have said this many times in how we do our budgeting that often we pass budgets where we can't say what we want, where we have no idea that there's no public figure provided for the cost of projects. So I also note that the clock wasn't started when I actually spoke so I think I well used up my time. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Member for Frame Lake.
Yes, thanks, Madam Chair. And I might have blown the whistle on my colleague beside me in terms of the time but, yes, I want to pick up where he's left off.
You know, I find it really difficult that we're trying to do a reconciliation of 2021 capital budget publicly when we've got confidential information. That's what we're trying to do here. And it's not working very well.
So I think I heard somebody say that there's a free balance of about $222 million, if I got it right, or $200 million. Basically the money that wasn't spent on the capital budget from 2021, if I got it right.
So what percentage of the capital budget wasn't spent? Is it, like, roughly 40 percent? 50 percent? 60 percent? Roughly what amount of the budget wasn't spent? Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Minister of Finance.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Chair, we do have the percentage here. I am
We don't have 20222023 yet. In 20212022, at this point, Madam Chair, we're looking at about 49 percent, just over. 49.6.
Member for Frame Lake.
Yes, thanks, Madam Chair. That's a problem. We can't spend 50 percent of the capital budget that's approved by the Assembly? Look, that's why I voted against the last capital budget because I didn't believe we could actually get the money out the door. And I've been proven right. And, you know, I don't blame anybody in this room, but and there's but I've asked now for tracking of those reasons for at least five or six years. Is the department actually tracking these reasons any better? Thanks, Madam Chair.
Thank you. Minister of Finance.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, they are tracking over the course of several years and, in fact, I think I've looked at the data for approximately ten years as to the percentage. And the percentage does vary, but the approximate amount that we are spending year over year doesn't change that much aside perhaps from a couple of years of COVID where things were a little bit tighter than unusual and more difficult to go out and spend. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister. Member for Frame Lake.
Thanks, Madam Chair. Without breaching confidentiality, I want to compliment the Minister and her staff for their improved tracking of the reason why money's not getting out the door. Unfortunately, I can't speak to it. I can't share it with the public. But I think it's improved, and that's a good thing. So I want to compliment them for doing that but I want to find a way to share that information publicly, because I want to give them more compliments but I can't.
So in any event, we're not doing a good job at reconciling the capital spending and how it figures into supplementary appropriations on the capital side, and that's a real problem.
So of the money that is some of it's being carried over, $64 million I guess is what this sup is for. So the remaining amount, 126, if I got it right, it's being lapsed, what happens to it? Does it just go back into the consolidated revenue fund? Are any of those projects going to come back in another sup or in the capital estimates for 20232024? What happens to that money? Thanks, Madam Chair.
