Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I move that this committee defer further consideration of activity legal aid services of the main estimates for the Department of Justice at this time. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
The motion is in order. To the motion.
Question.
Question has been called. All those in favour? All those opposed? The motion is carried. Consideration of the Department of Justice, operational expenditures, 2024-2025 Main Estimates, legal aid services, deferred.
---Carried
We will now move to the next key activity. Thank you. Moving on to the Office of the Regulator of Oil and Gas Operation on page 316, with information item on page 318. Are there any questions? I'm going to go to the Member from Yellowknife North.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. So when I was looking through the annual report, the last available annual report for the Office of the Regulator of Oil and Gas Operations, it clarified that we don't have any active oil and gas operations in the territory. And to be clear, this regulator doesn't cover the ISR, the Inuvialuit settlement region. So aside from -- sorry, I should qualify that. Aside from the operation in Norman Wells winding down. And that in 2022-2023, 55 abandoned wells -- sorry, wells were safely abandoned. And that represents two-thirds of the suspended wells in our jurisdiction.
So I am puzzled why we are maintaining the budget at $1.23 million for this coming year. Can the Minister explain what more the office will be doing this coming year than, for example, what was accomplished in previous years, perhaps prior to 2022?
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister.
Thank you. The Office of the Regulator of Oil and Gas is arm's length from government, and so I have very little to -- I have no involvement in the daily operations. What we are responsible for is to, A, not meddle in their operations; and, B, to ensure that they are funded appropriately. Through our conversations, this was the appropriate level of funding that was determined. I'm happy to go back and look at next year's main estimates with an eye to adjusting as necessary. And I will note that we did go through an exercise in the last Assembly to adjust their budget based on the level of operations. And I'm happy to do that as necessary but as it is a regulator, I don't want to be heavy handed in dictating what they do or how they do it. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Member from Yellowknife North.
So I understand that. And I do want to respect the independence of the regulator for sure. But I'm also eager to ensure that the level of funding is appropriate and corresponds to, like the level of need and the level of activity of the office. I wonder if the Minister can -- has any further explanation for us on why he was satisfied that the level of funding being allocated in this coming fiscal year is appropriate to the level of activity or the demands placed on the regulator.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister.
Thank you. So I leave OROGO alone unless it's been a while and it's time to look at their budget. And so I'm happy to look at the budget again, and committee is free to defer this activity as well if that is the wish. Thank you
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Member from Yellowknife North.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I do appreciate the Minister's commitment to review this. And we'll just leave it there for now. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Member from the Sahtu.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I kind of view this OROGO office as a continued allied services to the industry community. And I'm going to say this is probably a real good rate of return on this expense there, Mr. Chair, because our revenues or the royalties received by this industry, I think it's -- I don't have the numbers in front of me, but it's into the millions. So if you're spending $1.2 million, and you're getting back royalties in the neighbourhood of two or three or four, wouldn't you think that would be a good expense on regulatory responsibilities with this area? There's much that this department can do, but we haven't gauged the sense of interest. I wouldn't mind this government would explore over the next 20 months here, on exploring the interest in oil and gas. And it's really not a total expense to us. It's the issuance of exploration rights back in 2010. The rights issue and seeing 5 and $628.7 million in exploration rights across in that area of Norman Wells. But here we have a unique circumstances on the product of LNG being explored by M18, the old -- the owner, the previous owner of that particular well was Devon Canada, and now it is the Inuvialuit Petroleum Corporation. So I see they're doing remarkable things, and it won't shock me if we're exporting LNG from that particular location. So it just goes to show that there's potential and there's interest in -- potential and interest to be in this sector. And to keep our staff busy, I was -- I participated into a project that the Sahtu is looking at, and they just kick started it with the first or the second meeting just yesterday. So I attended virtually on that, and they're looking at identifying the old sumps that was once regulated to dispose of drilling contaminants. Now it's no longer a regulatory adjustment or mandatory. And so for them, they are cataloging all the old sumps. And with the well watch program, you can create a number of positions here to hold responsible the drilling company to clean up that mess and recap these sumps that have sunk over the years. So there's some exploration and responsibilities that this department can do, and I look forward to helping in any way I can. But I support the 1.23 costs and view it as a minor cost compared to the overall picture.
So my question to the must is will the Minister recommend that arm's length is organization to work with the Sahtu and also explore the option of exercising or executing the rights issuance process? Thank you.
Thank you. I want to go to the Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the Member's enthusiasm over oil and gas. I'm a child of oil and gas myself. I wouldn't be here if not for oil and gas in the Beaufort Delta. But it is not my place to actually sort of advocate to the regulator or make recommendation to the regulator. That being said, they're happy to receive a reach out and the Member himself could make those connections. I'm just not -- the reason it is in here in Justice is because Justice is removed from that industry, and it is -- it's for the independence of the organization. And so for that reason I do stay out of those types of conversations. Thank you.
Thank you. Go back to the Member from Sahtu.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Another area of exploration and interest is back in my workdays here when Imperial Oil had their own community. They had their own store, and it was the only one in town. They had their own post office and their own dump site. And their own dump site now is in the area of the airport. So it's outside the proven area agreement but it's still their responsibility, in my opinion, and I think, you know, there might be some value in exploring the clean-up exercise before Norman Wells disappears and moves into -- or the oil field moves into reclamation. So who's going to be responsible for reclaiming that old site? So I think there's a number of witnesses in the Sahtu that can confirm, aside from myself, that's your damage or your responsibility, you're liable for this contaminated site, and get it cleaned up so we can create some jobs and dispose of this liability, which is sitting on government property. And you never know, the excavation might lead to drilling a hole all the way to China so we'll have lots of material to backfill there, similar to what they're doing up in the Tuk area, creating a lot of jobs in this area of reclamation. Thank you. I share that information, so another to-do list possibly.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Member from Yellowknife Centre.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm going to pass at this time. I think my Member from the Sahtu said it clear enough. Thank you.
Thank you. Member from Yellowknife Centre.
Oh, myself? No, I support the comments provided by my good colleague for the Sahtu. So I support his concerns. Thank you.
Thank you. Okay, no further questions, we'll continue on. No further questions, okay, so please turn to page 317. Justice, Office of the Regulator of Oil and Gas, operations expenditures summary, 2024-2025 Main Estimates, $1,230,000. Does the committee agree?
Agreed.
Thank you. Moving on to the policing services on page 319. Are there any questions? I'm going to go to the Member from Frame Lake.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. My first question is just on the First Nations policing. So in March 2024, the Office of the Auditor General issued a performance audit on the First Nations and Inuit Policing Program. The audit found that Public Safety Canada and the RCMP have not worked in partnership with Indigenous communities to provide equitable access to policing services, nor to deliver tailored policing services. So significant concerns exist around whether requirements set out in policing agreements are being met and whether the program is achieving its intended results. My first question is whether the Minister is concerned about these findings?
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister.
Thank you. So the situation in the Northwest Territories is different from the rest of Canada, and the way that the First Nation and Inuit Policing Program works up here is essentially integrated in many ways into the regular force, and so they report to the same commanding officers. And our contract policing services, they actually operate in a sort of community policing model, which is what the First Nation and Inuit Policing Program is intended to do. And so it's actually -- the report is not necessarily speaking about the situation in the Northwest Territories. It's more about the other programs in southern Canada that are distinct from the other police services. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go back to the Member from Frame Lake.
Okay, thank you, Mr. Chair. My next question is on page 208 of the business plan. There's definitely a lot of comments about this in opening comments from Members. There's a plan to kind of bring forward a new territorial crime unit within the RCMP G-division to disrupt illicit drug supply. And so, yeah, my question isn't so much -- how do I put this? So I guess bottom line is what I'm asking is what evidence has the department used to inform the approach of kind of increasing policing services in response to this? And, you know, I would just note that there was some comments earlier that -- not today, but previously in the House, the Premier has indicated we've never had more police. And he also indicated that crime is as high as ever. And so it seems that in response to increasing police, crime is still rising. So I'd just like to hear some discussion on kind of what kind of evidence we're using to support this approach to ensure that we are, you know, taking an evidence-informed approach to these issues. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister.
Thank you. In terms of the level of -- or the number of police and the level of crime, we're trying to catch up to the level of crime. And so it is not that more police aren't helping the situation, but the crime rate is rising. We heard yesterday for an hour about the impact drugs are having on communities. I don't need to speak any further to that. That was discussed.
In terms of the increases to the RCMP budget, the way this works is that the RCMP, they look at their operations across the territory, they identify areas where they're feeling pressure, and we've seen some communities with spikes in crime that have been sustained, and they -- there needs to be an increase in the presence in those communities to help deal with the volume of calls. Officers get burnt out, things like that, so. And when that situation arises, the RCMP put together a business case, they bring it to the Department of Justice, and work with the Department of Justice to figure out how they can bring forward something for the Cabinet, for FMB, and for this House to approve. And so there's a bit of back and forth. But it is very much an evidence-based process.
In terms of the crime reduction unit, there have been some changes to the reporting structure in the RCMP. If we had no contract police service, if we -- if the GNWT did not hire the RCMP to be our police force, there would still be RCMP in the territory because the federal government has federal RCMP who focus on areas that the federal government wants to focus on. And so those areas of focus are things like organized crime, money laundering, guns. And so those -- that federal unit now is operating a little more independently from the G-division but still working with G-division. And so this crime reduction unit is going to fill the little -- the bit of a void that was left there, but also supplement the existing resources, because now we have the federal unit that can work with the crime reduction unit because we're seeing things like organized crime, like drugs. So this really is an enhancement of our services based on the needs that we're seeing.
In addition, there are sometimes increases based on new standards. So if the RCMP come up with a new standard saying we need this many officers in a community at any given time, then we need to bring forward an appropriation for that many officers if we need to bring the numbers up. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go back to the Member from Frame Lake.
MR. MORSE: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I guess I appreciate the Premier's clarification on that and getting that
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. So we have a number of ways that we are doing that. We can go back to decades and look at the restorative justice approach that the NWT really embarked on before many jurisdictions in Canada. I know the RCMP do their best to divert offenders away from the criminal justice system toward the restorative justice system. That system is highly dependent on community involvement. Those boards are made up of volunteers from the community who will work with offenders to figure out ways to help rehabilitate them without putting them into the criminal justice system. And so there's a number of successful examples of that across the territory.
We also have, as mentioned, the therapeutic model of -- in the South Mackenzie Correctional Centre, and that is a model where offenders who are -- you know, have certain issues, whether it's drug or alcohol issues, go to help them deal with those issues and hopefully give them tools to make it less likely that they will return. There's a number of different programs in the correctional facilities that can be delivered.
We have wellness courts in the Northwest Territories, the domestic -- or sorry, now the intimate partner violence treatment court, as well as the -- and so we have the two courts. And those aim at focusing on rehabilitating as well and getting passed those issues that lead people to offend. So those are just some of the examples. We also have the men's healing program, which is a fund that communities can access to deliver programs aimed at men who don't have to but often have a history of things like domestic violence. So despite the fact that the Department of Justice is not a health department, we do have a number of programs aimed at healing and wellness and addressing the root causes of crime. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Member from Frame Lake.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. And, you know, I appreciate that the Premier is trying to kind of keep us on the topic of the Justice department itself I guess. I mean, I'm really just looking for an acknowledgement, I guess, that, you know, that there's a lot more to this problem than what the justice system can do, right. So we're talking about -- yeah, when I speak to wholistic solutions, I was kind of hoping for a bit more there. But if the Premier wants to elaborate, he can, or we can kind of pursue this issue with other departments.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister.
Thank you. And I don't want to speak too much about other departments. I don't want to get anything wrong before they appear in front of committee. But one of the main initiatives that I can speak to, because it is in one of my departments, is integrated service delivery. And that is one of the approaches that I hope will begin to address some of these issues. Really, at the end of day, that is the way to stop people from falling through the cracks and deliver the services they need across government. Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Member from Sahtu.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm glad to see that this department is taking an active role as identified in the business plan to address our drug trade issues. And I'm also glad that some other responsibilities are with the Minister and the Premier so when they're making trips to Ottawa to solicit for more money, I think we can all -- we can encourage our leader to emphasize the need for additional policing resources. And then when we get to the -- when we get to the fact of homelessness, now we've got the Minister and the Premier responsible for that department also or that initiative. So it works in harmony with our Premier's responsibility looking forward and making trips to Ottawa to initiate discussions on resource supports. And the outcomes for the reason for this trip could be said that -- take the Sahtu for example. I think I brought this up here.
The Sahtu in the last three years have seen 448 medevacs in our area. Now, let's just hypothetically say half of that or 50 percent of that is drug related. I know of some people that end up going to the hospital here because I visit them to see if they need anything. So there's a measurable there for the need for more resources. Now, we're targeting the policing by allowing a portion of those resources to go to First Nation policing. So if it's a good model, let's go to Ottawa and get more resources and say we want to minimize these medevacs down to a hundred. It just seems like, you know, the transfer of problems went from this department over to the health department. Now we got more clients over there, and we only got 44 percent of our jail capacity filled. So that's kind of like one way of looking at that. So it's more of a suggestion that we need to emphasize to Ottawa more resources are needed because this is a huge problem here in this drug world. Thank you.
I'm going to go to the Minister.
Sure, thank you. And like I said, we've been adding RCMP officers every year since I've been Minister. I have to check the stats, but I would say this budget shows the largest increase in RCMP officers in my time. In particular, the First Nation and Inuit Police Program has seen a significant increase. We used to have four officers under that program. That is a program that is cost shared differently. Generally, we pay 70 percent of the costs for RCMP, and the federal government pays the other 30 percent. With the First Nation and Inuit Policing Program, the federal government pays 52 percent and so we have been able to get that number from four, and we have an agreement to get that up to -- I believe it's 23 -- 22. And so there's -- in 2023 -- as of 2023, we had nine. And then there was an additional nine, and then an additional four this year. Thank you.
Thank you. I'll go back to the Member from Sahtu. Is there any further questions?
No further questions. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. I want to go to the Member from Range Lake.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, so the increases to RCMP that the Premier's been speaking about, can he just give us a breakdown of where these new officers are -- or how many -- let's start -- I'll do it in smaller checks. How many new officers are being created in this budget? Thank you.
Thank you. I'm going to go to the Minister.
