Thank you, Madam Chair. The project that we have on the books today for the tank farm upgrade is an example of one of the projects that we do to bring our tank farms up to code, up to standard to meet the environmental laws that have been changed or standards that have been brought into place since the original construction – many of those facilities are aging – as well as providing any additional capacity that we may need to meet the needs of the communities. We also are primarily upgrading the codes, the liners and the containment berms.
Thank you, Mr. Guy. Any further general comments on the Department of Public Works and Services’ capital budget?
Detail.
Detail, thank you. I’ll refer your attention, please, to page 5-2 in your capital estimates book, Public Works and Services, department summary, infrastructure investment summary, total infrastructure investment summary, $11.241 million.
---Interjection
Oh, you want the summary? Okay. Sorry. Summary would be deferred. Now I direct your attention away from the summary page and go to page 5-4. Is that the page that we’re going to, page 5-4?
---Interjection
Okay. Public Works and Services, activity summary, asset management, infrastructure investment summary, total infrastructure investment summary, $5.976 million. Mr. Bromley.
Thank you, Madam Chair. There are a few points I’d like to bring out here. First of all, the deferred maintenance is an important issue. We know that we have quite a backlog. We have made some progress and I appreciate that, and there’s still much more to go and the department is continuing to work on that. That’s good work.
I want to highlight the schools in Yellowknife. Particularly Sissons is one that keeps getting docked and put on the backburner, yet there’s obviously a very high need in that area. I’d appreciate knowing what the plan is for when that will finally be addressed. That’s been highlighted for many years now.
Also, on the order of the general purpose office buildings – 6,000 square metres – and other government infrastructure of this ilk that we’re contemplating, I’m wondering what the opportunity is for getting a policy in place where 1 percent of those facilities can become available to the arts communities in each community that we develop this infrastructure in. I’d like to specifically request that that be done for this particular general purpose office building in downtown Yellowknife.
I have had the opportunity to talk to Heritage Canada and somewhat to the arts community here. There’s a lot of enthusiasm and potential for project sharing and costs. I know and I’ve brought this to the attention of Cabinet and perhaps there’s some progress happening there, but it’s a real opportunity and we need to start supporting these groups in realizing the benefits, especially to the local economies that they can bring. This is that 6,000 square metre office building. One percent of it would be obviously 60 square metres. That’s a little over 600 square feet. Not a huge amount but it could be very important space for the sorts of demonstration and advertising and administration, really, of the arts community in the capital.
I think I’ll actually save the rest for other divisions. I’ll leave it at that.
Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Mr. Lafferty.
Mahsi, Madam Chair. The Yellowknife schools, it’s my understanding, are funded differently. I’ll get Mr. Guy to elaborate a little bit more on that, but when it comes to deferred maintenance they are funded differently than other projects.
The office building, when we talk about arts, the new building that’s going up is not really suitable for arts but there are other private sector spaces that are more suitable and available in that respect and would also cut huge savings over the long run. I’ll get Mr. Guy to elaborate a bit more since he’s been involved with more detailed discussion.
Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. Mr. Guy.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, the Deferred Maintenance Program funding is intended to be applied to buildings that are owned by the Government of the Northwest Territories and maintained by the Department of Public Works and Services. The schools in Yellowknife are not within the scope of the Department of Public Works and Services. Those facilities are funded for and maintained by the boards themselves. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Guy. Mr. Bromley.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Just again, in reverse order, where is then the maintenance work being planned? How is it being planned? What are we doing to ensure that the work is being done, for example in Sissons School in Yellowknife?
On the general purpose office building, of course, I disagree with the Minister. I think it’s entirely possible that the space be made available for arts without any impact on the private sector here. They don’t currently have it and there is an opportunity for paying for that, in fact, in working cooperatively with the federal government.
I would just like to note that the building design for this project is not due until April of 2013. That’s 15 months from now so there’s plenty of time to design this into the facility. All it requires is the political will to do this, and at 1 percent use of space, obviously, I don’t think it’s a huge burden to bear, especially in the capital city. I would appreciate some more details from the Minister on that. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Minister Lafferty.
Mahsi, Madam Chair. This particular area, of course, will be part of the policy that we need to work within the ECE department as the Minister responsible. These are discussions that we can certainly have between the two parties.
Public Works and Services is not really responsible in that area. The decision has to be brought forward to the Executive department to decide on the next step if the arts should be part of this new building. Mahsi.
Thank you. Just on that then, I did have another question that I would appreciate a response on. But on this one, which department should I be talking to on this one? Thank you.
My understanding is that the space area needs to be in consultation with the ECE department, so those are discussions that can generally happen. Mahsi.
Thanks for the Minister’s response on that. I will follow up on that.
The other question I had was if the deferred maintenance is not responsible for the schools, I’m wondering if there’s any GNWT role in getting that deferred maintenance done. We seem to, obviously, be doing it for a lot of schools elsewhere. How are we and when are we going to make sure it gets done by whomever is responsible? For example, Sissons School in Yellowknife. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Mr. Guy.
Thank you, Madam Chair. The Department of Public Works and Services also provides technical services and technical support to the boards through the Department of Education, Culture and Employment. So if there’s a request to have a technical assessment done on one of those facilities, we would undertake that on behalf of the Department of Education.
Any maintenance-related issues that the boards have or technical support related, if they have a problem with their building systems or boilers or building envelope, they have access to the staff and technical services of the Department of Public Works and Services to provide them with some sort of technical support in those areas where they’re challenged. Thank you.
Thank you for that information. Can I just confirm that there has been no request for any maintenance or upgrades to the Sissons School in Yellowknife? Thank you.
My understanding is that there is a plan identified in the 20-year needs of the Department of Education to do some upgrades to that school, but I’m not aware of any direct requests for maintenance-related funding at this time. Thank you.
It’s certainly been brought up for many years by MLAs. I’ll leave it at that. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Moving on and just to let Members know who I have on the list under this activity, I have Mr. Yakeleya, Mr. Hawkins, Ms. Bisaro and Mr. Bouchard. Mr. Yakeleya.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to ask the Minister under the department if he could provide to me a briefing. It could be in a document, or I know I heard Mr. Guy talk about it earlier, on the situation in Colville Lake with their honey bucket matter there at the school and also at the health centre. I know the kids, 53 of them have to wait another year to use a facility that has running water in there. I’m really disappointed that it will take another year for this department to put in a proper facility in the school, and also they can look at that at the health centre too.
There is a sewer truck in Colville Lake and there are people in there that use the water situation. It’s not as good as the sewer. I guess I’m just disappointed that it’s taken this long to put a proper running facility in the community. Can he provide me with a briefing that, hopefully, I can go to Colville Lake to explain why it’s going to take another year to put a washroom in the school and in the… Not even talking about the health centre. I don’t even know where the health centre is with that. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Lafferty.
Mahsi, Madam Chair. This particular area has a high importance for our department as well, both the ECE department and also Public Works and Services, but we have to work with the community. The sewage lagoon is still being worked on. It hasn’t been completed by the community and it’s kind of out of our control, but we continue to establish or install a sewage tank. That will be happening this winter. Once the sewage lagoon is completed and in order, then it will all be connected. We are ready, as Public Works and Services, to go into the community and establish the functioning sewage tank and other areas as well. Mahsi.
Madam Chair, they’re going to install a sewer tank. They’re doing it during the winter and it’s cold. You know, it’s difficult. It’s going to cost probably more; I’m not too sure. They had all summer to do it. I don’t know what as part of the deferred maintenance or what happened. The community has been trying to work with this government for a long time. It’s been years. I find it hard for the Minister to say we’re trying to work with the community to get this in our community, especially at the school so those 53 kids that have to go through this system. There are only two honey buckets in the school. We’re not even talking about the health centre. I know the community wants to move on it. They have the sewer truck. It’s being used at the band hall. It’s being used at the bed and breakfast. They’re using it. I think you have to have somebody from DPW actually to go into Colville Lake and work with them. The community wants to work with them. I guess I’m having a hard time trying to follow the paperwork. It doesn’t quite jive with what’s actually happening in Colville Lake. I guess that’s the saying; that the job’s not done until the paperwork is there.
I am trying to follow this, Madam Chair. It is just hard to understand. I hope that the Minister will dispatch some of the workers to go into Colville Lake and say this is what we can do. It’s a shame. Fifty-three kids can go another whole year without proper running washroom facilities. It is unheard of in this day and age.
I’m not going to talk too much on my frustration. The Minister knows. DPW knows. This government knows. This seems to be a really difficult time to put in washrooms or get the Minister to talk about other departments that also need to coordinate. We are a small government. I don’t know why it is so hard to coordinate a small project like putting a proper washroom into the health centre. It’s deplorable. I am speaking out my frustration there, Madam Chair.
The teachers have to be commended. Maybe to get the government to work faster, maybe we can put an extra two more honey buckets in that school. That will be four. At least we can speed it up, but it is frustrating, I guess. Some speak on their frustration that these kids in kindergarten to a higher grade. It doesn’t seem to faze all of us over here because we don’t have that situation here. If that was something that happened in this Legislative Assembly, we would be up in arms. In Colville Lake the parents are screaming the same way. I just want to leave it at that. It doesn’t matter if the Minister responds or not.
Madam Chair, all I can say at this point is we will be putting in the sewage tank. Whatever happened this past summer or winter, it wouldn’t have made a difference because we are still waiting for a sewage lagoon to be completed. Even though it was completed this summer, it will be just sitting there. We will be going forward with this in the wintertime so we can be ready for summer when the completion of the sewage lagoon is completed by the community. We did commit and we are looking forward to having our staff going into the community and completing that project in due time. Mahsi, Madam Chair.
It would have made a difference this year if they had sewage tanks going into the Colville Lake School. I am telling you right now, if the Minister and staff went to Colville Lake, they have the sewer truck there. It is pumping out sewer in the bed and breakfast and pumping out of the band office and it is being used. For the Minister’s statement that it wouldn’t matter, I think that is a real kind of attitude to say to our community in Colville Lake it wouldn’t matter. It would have mattered, because the sewer truck now is being used in Colville Lake. They have a garage and they are using it. They are using it in the bed and breakfast. It would have made a big difference to the kids in Colville Lake to have running water in their school for those 53 kids.
You go there and look outside in the schoolyard and you will see four or five honey buckets outside with honey bags out there. You go to the health centre and it’s the same thing there too.
I think this government needs to wake up and say we are going to do something and work with the community. The community wants to work. I am hoping that DPW would be more practical, more looking at the reality of Colville Lake and when it does its planning on bringing small and large capital projects in, that the knowledge and the expertise in the community do work and do help. We always can’t rely on the people who have gone to university and who are down south and trying to figure out how to work things in our small communities. That’s what I want to say to the Minister.
It’s frustrating when you have to now go back to Colville Lake and see the kids and the families and they say, well, what happened? Well, sorry. We will wait another year because you don’t have a proper sewage lagoon. They’re going to laugh, because they are already using that sewer lagoon. Thank you.
Again all I can say is that it is going to be happening in the wintertime. There is a brand new water truck and sewage truck to be delivered on this year’s winter road, 2012. That is the information we are getting from MACA. We work closely with MACA as well. The sewage tank is currently being built, ready for delivery on the winter road. That is happening. PWS is following through with that, definitely. Mahsi.
Thank you, Minister Lafferty. Next I have Mr. Hawkins.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to get on the record that, as I said in committee, I respect the concerns that Mr. Bromley has been raising regarding the display case or a space for artisans to sell their works and wares, but the intent is there and I want to stress that. But the reality here is I disagree under the principle of we can’t be giving free space away. There is a rental market in the downtown that would be of significant concern if we were giving space away to some groups and not the next, and the next NGO will be phoning me or another MLA, asking if they could have free space. We get into quite a complicated process here where how do we meet everyone’s needs. The sad thing is sometimes it is a lot easier to just say no up front, rather than try to figure out how to come up with a policy on that.
Just to carry it a little further, it wouldn’t be more than 150 or 250 feet away that we have a business called Northern Images. I can assure you they would be quite upset if the GNWT was giving away space to artisans to sell their wares. We have businesses that are struggling to stay ahead of the game in the sense of selling stuff, making sure that they cover their own rent, and the costs, and pay their tax and city taxes and whatnot. It would seem horribly insulting to them, those who have made those types of commitments to be in business in the downtown and we turn around and give space away.
Now, that said, I said without spending a whole lot of time or thought or energy into the problem, I can appreciate that if we want to figure out how to display some artisans’ work within the territorial buildings, I have no particular issue with that. If anything, it may be a good idea to use an opportunity to showcase some work being done. But how can that be done in a way that is constructive but not biting into the market of people trying to sell it? I’m not sure we are here to discuss that or decide those types of issues today, but I would certainly be in support if there was a display case that showed work.
But back to the point of if you start selling work in government buildings, then there is a responsibility brought in there and a significant concern. The spirit and intent is a good one. I will again underscore that. We have to keep in mind that the private sector itself doesn’t like this building to begin with and that is a whole other issue. Now there is an intent to give free space away, which will cause concern. I don’t have to go far to the constituency to find people who would have great objections.
Just to tie it all together, as I have said before, and even at the arts forum I had mentioned to the artisans there – and it may not have been the most popular suggestion but I would like to think that it was one of the most honest ones – the fact that the artisans have to take a stake into the solution and getting free space is not feasible here in Yellowknife. It is a challenge. Once we start giving it away to some groups, we have to start giving it away to more. It’s a real challenge. They have to take an economic stake into the solution of this problem.
I coined it towards one of the four legs or pillars to any problem. The territorial government needs to be part of the solution. The City of Yellowknife needs to be part of the solution if it’s done here. The federal government, through Heritage Canada, needs to be part of the solution, but by no means or any less the artisans need to be part of the solution.
I know we’re here to discuss the capital plan, and in stressing that, I don’t think the GNWT making free space available in this particular building helps them. It actually enables them to demand more free space and I think it’s a mistake. I think it’s important to put that on the record here.
Lastly, I should say it this way, the artisans need an introduction to space that’s available. I’d be more than happy to take them down to the malls – they have a lot of empty space – and talk to them there. I’ve put that out there for consideration as well.
A little direct question is Public Works, but other than the fact that I needed to put it officially on record that I oppose that in this forum. So if it comes back in another forum, maybe we’ll discuss it under a policy under Public Works. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. I don’t hear any question there. Did you want to respond to that, Mr. Lafferty?
Mahsi, Madam Chair. We’re not talking about giving away free spaces. This is an area that we know there are a lot of NGOs out there, not only that, but other organizations, private sector and there are different buildings where there are vacancies. So what I stated was that the Department of Education, Culture and Employment does have some options to work with within the community, and when Mr. Bromley raised that issue that was just one area where we are exploring different discussions. I’m not saying that it’s going to happen; it’s just that discussion has been ongoing. So those are just some of the areas that I’ve been talking about. Mahsi.
But, like anything, silence is assent and if I don’t express that concern under the capital process right now, then it could be seen as one perspective is the one to go with. So it’s important to get that out there now and I assure you and assert to the Assembly that we have disparities, whether they’re daycare spaces, some free within the GNWT institutions in some areas and some in other places in other communities where we have to charge full market rent and we have a lot of challenges on how to balance that particular one. I mean, I don’t want us bringing in another problem that’s… You know, how do we balance?
This is the only opportunity I have to speak to this and someone has to provide a different perspective. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Moving on, next on the list I have Ms. Bisaro.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I just have a couple of comments at the outset. I want to state my unreserved approval for a focus on deferred maintenance. I know PWS is the department that pretty much has the Deferred Maintenance Program and we’ve certainly expanded that program over the last several years. I think it’s very definitely the way to go and I certainly support the focus that we’ve put on deferred maintenance in all of our areas.
I do wish to speak to the suggestion by Mr. Bromley about providing arts space in new GNWT buildings. I don’t believe his suggestion was earmarked specifically for this particular Yellowknife building and I guess what I would like to say is that I think there’s a huge opportunity for us to encourage arts.
Any number of times we will hear that arts is part of our economic development as tourism. Arts tourism is certainly an area in which we can expand where we can develop our community. I would like to see, as opposed to simply referring this issue to the Department of Education, Culture and Employment, I think this is an issue which ought to be looked at by Cabinet in terms of developing a policy. I’m not thinking about a retail space.
I know Mr. Hawkins was referencing, I think, free space for retail. That’s not, I think, what we need. I think what we need is a space where artists can develop, where artists certainly can display works and even if it happens to be that 1 percent of the space in the building is for artists to display their work, not for sale but simply to display them so that tourists come into any community, they want to see what local artists have to show them. If there is no space where they can be displayed, then people have no idea what is available.
So I’d like to ask the Minister if he would consider expanding his view of this particular issue and look at developing a policy that would consider, and there would then be some clear definition of what we mean by art space. At the moment it’s pretty much up to each individual’s interpretation, but if we can develop a policy, then that would be something where it would apply to all newly built buildings in the GNWT, whether it be 1 percent or 10 percent or 100 percent, but there is a statement that we will provide space for the arts and this policy would determine what kind of space that would be.
To Mr. Hawkins’ statement that we’re not going to get free space given away, well, I think the artist-run community centre happened to have free space for a number of months and there are opportunities for organizations, through philanthropy, to be given a space where they can do things, like, for their organization. They certainly had meetings there, they displayed works there, they certainly had events there, any number of events and I think it was a real boost, a real shot in the arm for the arts community not just in Yellowknife but throughout the Territories. Because any artists that came from any other community came through the artist-run community centre and got some sort of a boost from it, even just artists being able to interact from one person to another.
So I would like to ask the Minister again – I’m rambling on here a bit – if he would consider expanding this particular idea, taking it to Cabinet for the development of a policy that would apply to all newly built GNWT buildings in the future. Thank you.
Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. We’ll go to Minister Lafferty.
Mahsi, Mr. Chair. When we talk about arts we can talk about, I guess, various artists in the Northwest Territories displaying their arts and their work, their piece of work. We do have, in some government buildings but not all government buildings, PWS I’m not sure if we have an arts display in the actual building itself, but we do have in the ECE building. I think different buildings have their own displays. Again, this is a matter that needs discussion in the Executive branch as well.
As I stated before, although it’s a separate item from ECE, ECE also talked about displaying arts throughout the Northwest Territories. Those are options that we’ve just briefly been discussing. So we want to move forward on that, and that will be discussed with the Cabinet and also with the standing committee when their time comes.
This is an area that’s been brought forward before and I’ll just get Mr. Guy to just elaborate a bit more during their discussion when the actual building was going up. Mahsi.
Thank you, Minister Lafferty. Ms. Bisaro.
Mr. Guy I think had an explanation.
Mr. Guy, my apologies.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just following up on the Minister’s comments, some buildings that are constructed do have space for arts. It really depends on the program department that’s constructing it and what their requirements are even in office space for a specific program and their tenant improvements or their tenant space has some program-related art display that they may want, they may incorporate it. For example, things that are made locally might be displayed in ITI regional offices or in other government offices that are regional offices by the departments that are responsible or have a linkage to those sort of programs, whether it’s crafts or arts. As I said, we also do incorporate some arts-related space when we do the schools on behalf of ECE. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Both the response from the Minister and from Mr. Guy indicates to me that what we have is piecemealed. We don’t have an all-encompassing policy that goes across all our departments. At the moment every office, almost every department it sounds like, does their own thing and I think there’s an opportunity for us to provide a bit of an incentive, a bit of a shot in the arm and some support for arts in every one of our communities. Existing buildings aside, I think future buildings could – if we had a policy in place – provide a base for arts. I didn’t hear the Minister say that. He said the Executive would consider it. He didn’t say what the Executive would consider. I ask again if he would be willing to ask the Executive to consider a policy relative to arts space in our future buildings.
Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. Mr. Lafferty.
Mahsi, Mr. Chairman. We are talking about the infrastructure here, about how we move forward on capital. What the Member could be referring to is, as we move forward on the business planning cycle, to produce more arts in the buildings. Those are the discussions that we can have with my Cabinet colleagues. I need to get their perspective, as well, on this particular subject. We talk about the 1 percent and how it’s going to look overall within the GNWT buildings. I can definitely bring that forward and have discussion and see what the outcome will be.
Just one last comment. I have to disagree with the Minister that we’re not talking about infrastructure, future buildings. We’re talking about the building of buildings and within the design of those buildings that we allocate space for the arts. What that space happens to be can be covered in a policy. I don’t see this as giving money to an arts group for them to run programs. This is providing physical space for them to either display their works or run programs or whatever. I do think that it fits within capital. Thank you. No question there.
Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. Our next line of questioning is with Mr. Bouchard.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My questions today, too, concern the general purpose office building. I’m not 100 percent agreeable to this concept. I have reviewed some of the briefings on the issue. I think we’re looking for some of the dollars that we’re saving over a longer period of time, then we could also do half a dozen things to look at what the territorial government does to save that kind of money. If we look at long term versus rewards, there are a lot of things that the territorial government does that we could eliminate costs.
One of the first questions I have for the Minister is concerning public consultation with some of the lessors that we have right now. Has there been any public consultation in the process of this building?
