Debates of February 11, 2013 (day 4)

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I won’t spend a lot of time, although I could probably talk well beyond 10 minutes. I just have a few things I want to pick up where I commented the other day and was unable to sort of highlight my thoughts on the budget because of the restriction on the Member’s statement.

I wish to applaud the government’s focus on the early childhood development, although I caution the government in the sense that I worry about where the money may be coming from or be filtered through and what departmental programs through education school boards will be suffering for that. I’m grateful the money is emerging, but where is it coming from? In some respects, when we’re looking at programming, it’s certainly necessary. We have to look at things like inclusive schooling. Inclusive schooling, as we all know, is a very intense type of service offered within our education system and it comes at a great range. Some students only need a little help; others need a full-time assistant. I could be correct or even mistaken when I say I think I’ve even heard of one situation that they needed more than one person to help them. It is such an important role that we play within that and, of course, we see government finding new ways to do business and I just fear that it would come at the cost of our education system where they’re trying to provide the best services and opportunities for those who want to participate and need to participate.

The discussion about detox options and model provided by the Minister of Health the other day were quite interesting, and he did talk about two bed opportunities in Inuvik and two in Yellowknife. I mean, that’s certainly a great step forward and I cannot ignore the fact that I wish to thank him for that and how important that is, but the next phase really is to now talk about a treatment centre and how we build that into our continuum of care for offering people good and clear options. I, like other Members, found that budget discussion or dialogue very interesting. I think it ran around $40,000. In some ways, in discussion with the Minister, it’s difficult to put a price on good consultation and building relationships, but what I would say, though, is what type of duplication are we looking at and how is it getting into the system and being recognized. In some ways, I wonder that the same messages that were delivered by constituents at the Lego building exercises are some of the same messages delivered by MLAs and I often worry, and I stress this, that are our message is being drowned out because we’re MLAs or is the government only taking us serious when they need our three votes or are they taking those Lego exercises by the public more serious than our message that we try to deal with here today. So the frustration of potential duplication and the fact is sometimes I wonder that is our role being appreciated. Not everyone has the benefit of sitting on this side of the House or realizing how challenging it is to run these issues up the flag pole. It becomes quite frustrating at times when you articulate a message but somebody walks in with a piece of Lego and they seem to make more sense, which is frustrating.

I would like to say that I do appreciate the concerns, and they are certainly not lost on me by my community colleagues. I understand and I’m not a stranger to the reality that options can be few and far between, whether they’re employment options, housing options and the list could go on well longer than my 10 minute allotment of time.

At the same time, we’ve always got to be cautious. The word Yellowknife was really only mentioned once, if I read it correctly, in 12 pages of the Minister’s budget speech, where I think he just mentioned the Inuvik-Tuk highway alone six or seven times. This isn’t a criticism of the Inuvik-Tuk Highway Project, but I worry more in a broader scale of things, almost 50 percent of your population in the centre. I realize we have synergies that should never be ignored, but by the same token, we can’t ignore the needs of the larger centre because the larger centre does have different needs. What we do need, though, in the longer haul is a philosophy in strategy in how we ensure what is considered an equitable support system throughout our community regions and I do support the development of them. Just so people know, Yellowknife is not such a bad place, folks. I wish you wouldn’t beat us up for being the community we are.

That said, I understand in the glaring, if not immeasurable, needs that some of the community regions need. At times, some are so obvious to support when we support them, we wonder where has government been for years and never touched upon.

We were made known, near the end there would be some jobs being moved in a particular department. That said, I worry, have we done enough to consider new opportunities and new focus. It’s an easy sell for me by saying if we want to establish a new service, we should look outside of Yellowknife. It doesn’t pay me to say if we were establishing something new, we should always look outside the region to see if we could make it fit and, certainly, make it flow. But it does cause concern when we operate a particular area within government, regardless if we were moving from a small centre to a larger one, not necessarily Yellowknife, but the change in the community and the dynamics, certainly the change of the employees and how they feel, it does seem in a microcosm of not being very sensitive to that.

I do appreciate the fact that the challenges to get those jobs out there are great. It’s easy to say let’s just do something and it’s difficult to actually do. I understand that. I can appreciate that decisions have to be made. Like the old proverbial you can take the band-aid off slow or you can just rip it off and do it, I can only imagine these are tough decisions to make by anyone, whether it’s a department Minister, director or managers when they are trying to find positions to go.

The only question I would have for the Minister is back to the decentralization points. Perhaps you could put on the record exactly which positions are being decentralized from that number that has now been refined a little. What kind of notice to employees have we provided and what type of program evaluation have we considered? Not all decentralized positions need to go, say, to Hay River, when we have Norman Wells, Fort Simpson, Inuvik. How did we come about saying one should go to a particular area over another in the sense of the economics and making sure that they do work and are supported?

I think my colleague Mr. Menicoche’s point earlier was very well made, which is it’s great to talk the great line about saying let’s farm positions out, but housing availability and options are a true challenge. In the same token, I think he’s right. As well, I think Mr. Bouchard had made this point about building space and future availability about future building space, I think that needs to be part of the bigger program, because if we want these options to succeed, we have to start off with the philosophy of ensuring that they do have the best chance. So the likelihood of them succeeding all comes down to the evaluation and consideration. It’s great to say they need to be there or there, but by the same token, at what type of evaluation? Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Minister Miltenberger.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I guess a couple of the key issues the Member raises are what type of duplication does going out consulting cause with the role of the MLAs. The MLAs are elected officials. We gather here. Our job is to run the government, it’s to pass the laws, it’s to listen to the feedback we get from the people. Some Members say and we pride ourselves on consultation and empowering the people and being able to get feedback from them, that we could all benefit from that. There should be no sense of somehow feeling threatened by going to the communities that we’re not going to listen to the MLAs. The MLAs collectively vote and pass budgets and the bills. So to reassure the Member, those roles should be very complementary and there is, no doubt, the final say the MLAs have in this whole process.

The Member mentioned that Yellowknife was only mentioned once in the budget address. If I were to hazard a guess, the last five years Yellowknife was probably mentioned numerous times, repeatedly in this House and in the budget as we worked through that major project. So now we have a major project that has a focus and a location outside of Yellowknife. That does not detract from the fact that a big chunk of the budget comes to Yellowknife. This is the seat of the government. Half of the positions, as Mr. Bouchard pointed out, that have been created have been coming to Yellowknife. So Yellowknife is very present even though it’s not named repeatedly.

The issue of decentralization, in my opinion, unequivocally I can tell you that the jobs that are moved can be easily done outside of Yellowknife. There is not some special something in the air, something in the location that makes the fact that jobs can only be done in Yellowknife. We’ve created a bit of a myth that you need to be here, that you have to be five feet away from the deputy, or people won’t want to live in Hay River, they don’t want to live in Inuvik, Norman Wells, Fort Smith and so, therefore, you can’t fill them and so we will just fill them in Yellowknife. The challenge is we have about 180 jobs we can fill in Yellowknife as well, as well as 180 we are trying to fill outside of Yellowknife. So it’s a challenge across the board, but there’s enormous centrifugal force that attracts things to the centre. The challenge for this august body is to try to counteract that to a certain modest extent. We’ve made a commitment with devolution that we are going to look at new positions and look at relocating them outside of Yellowknife. We’re going to take the time to work with communities, and there is going to be a trickle-down effect and we are going to look at small communities as well.

There is no doubt that communities outside of Yellowknife are more than mature enough to handle decentralization. They just have to be given the opportunity. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Next on my list I have Mrs. Groenewegen.

Jane Groenewegen

Hay River South

Thank you, Mr.Chairman. I wasn’t going to make general comments, but after hearing my colleague from Yellowknife Centre, I guess I do need to talk about the budget here a little bit.

Yellowknife only got mentioned once in the budget address? Like please. This government has got to look outside of Yellowknife. I mean, Yellowknife might as well be on a different planet when you get out into the other communities. It’s not even in the same league, and how for these few jobs that are being decentralized after, for my case, 18 years of begging in this House? I know beggars can’t be choosers, but we are definitely beggars when it comes to getting government jobs.

Finally, this government and this Cabinet have responded with a few jobs for communities outside and we have to worry about whether we are being sensitive to the employees that are being moved.

We live in Hay River. We live in Fort Smith. We live in Norman Wells. We live in Fort Simpson. There’s nothing wrong with these communities. Whether there will be infrastructure, the minute the word goes out in a community like Hay River that there is potential for needing privately invested office space or infrastructure, whatever is needed, it’s just that nobody can afford to build it on speculation and hope that maybe something is going to come there. We can’t build it and let it sit there empty while the government decides if they are going to send something. But there would be lots of capacity, I would suggest, in communities outside of Yellowknife, and particularly if there was a little bit of heads-up and a little bit of notice that there was some economy coming.

It’s not good out there. I come to Yellowknife after being back in Hay River for a few weeks. I’m driving down Old Airport Road and there are new buildings that have sprung up while I was gone over the summer. It’s great for Yellowknife. Is there anything wrong with Yellowknife? Absolutely not. We should just all move to Yellowknife; that would solve the big problem, wouldn’t it? We aren’t going to do that. We want to have viable, sustainable communities outside of the centre.

I am very happy that this government has finally seen fit to move a few jobs. Yes, the government continues to grow. I am sorry; I guess I am to the right when it comes to fiscally conservative. I don’t want to see government grow for the sake of growing. I don’t want to see the government and the public service growing on itself. Industry will decide where they want to go.

We don’t have a lot of control over that as a government, but where we do have control over government offices that can be away from exactly where the programs and services are delivered, we have an obligation as a government to be fair and live up to our stated commitment for sustainable and viable communities across the Northwest Territories wherever that’s possible. I personally would support that going out to… One or two jobs in some of our smaller communities would be a big thing.

In Hay River, on the few that we are getting is a big thing. There is so much buzz in Hay River about these few jobs, decentralization, these new positions, our phones were ringing off the hook after the budget address. What is Hay River getting?

In Inuvik I know it’s the same thing. Times are not great there. We struck a program review office here to look at government programs. The big prize finding that came out of it is that we should build a $40 million office building in Yellowknife downtown to relieve the pent up demand -- I just love that term -- that pent up demand for office space and infrastructure in downtown Yellowknife. Of course, I know the argument will all come back that it was to save money and everything, but it just put more infrastructure into the centre. We know devolution is coming. We have to be prepared for that.

I am happy with what we have. Thank you to the government. It is a start. As it was described to us, it’s the beginning. It is the easier things to identify. But our Cabinet represents the whole territory. I do thank them for finally seeing the plight of some of these communities outside. It’s quiet. It’s quiet in Inuvik. It’s quiet in Hay River. It’s quiet in Fort Smith. We can’t make industry appear with jobs. But where our government can make sensible, efficient, effective, viable transfer of positions and programs and services, I think we need to do it. But like I said, I’ve been preaching that for a long time. I am really excited that finally there are a few things happening. It has a ways to go; it is a beginning.

I just had to respond to my colleague from Yellowknife Centre. It is great that Yellowknife is doing as well as it is, but we have to be fair and we have to look beyond.

I don’t even know what else I had to say about the budget. We will get through it in great detail in the days, the five weeks that lie ahead.

Just back to the point, though, for a moment about being fiscally conservative and not getting ourselves as a jurisdiction into difficult financial times, as the Finance Minister alluded to earlier. I still think there is lots of room within the money that we do have and the way we do spend money, to spend it more wisely, to spend it smarter. That’s, I think, where we have to focus a lot of attention, because it isn’t like for a jurisdiction of 42,000 or 43,000 people and we don’t have a fair amount of financial resources. We do. But to get the most results from those financial resources, I still think there is a lot we can be looking at. We have the room. We have the capacity to look at how we do spend our money and to respond to needs with the right kind of spending. With that, I thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Minister Miltenberger.

Mr. Chair, the Member’s impassioned commentary on decentralization stands on its own merit. It needs no response from me. Being from Fort Smith, it resonates, I think, very clearly with most of the folks that are from outside of Yellowknife.

The comment about spending smarter, if I could just speak to the budget dialogue again, I think that’s one of the themes that the people tell us as well. They don’t have all the answers, but they tell us to be efficient, avoid duplication, spend it smarter. The people who are charged with doing that, of course, are us. So that’s the discussion that we have to have as we go forward for the next budget as well.

It comes to hard decisions. If I could point to just to the debate over when we moved money for early childhood and we moved some money out of inclusive schooling. It is achieving that consensus on how to be spending it smarter will challenge us, but I think it’s something that we can’t shirk from or shrink from. It is one of the things we have to do as government. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Minister Miltenberger. General comments. Mr. Hawkins.

Thanks, Mr. Chair. I’m not sure why Mrs. Groenewegen would say there we go or here we go. I think it is very short-sighted and very narrow to thinking what I’m going to…(inaudible)... Actually, I don’t disagree with some of the things she said. My issue was more about the planning and evaluation of what they did. Minister Miltenberger didn’t answer that question, which was, when we look at those jobs, which jobs exactly were they? What type of evaluation? And maybe we can hear about where they’re going. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Minister Miltenberger.

Mr. Chairman, I’ll get Mr. Aumond. He has the list of the positions. We’ll just take a second to go through the list. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister Miltenberger. Mr. Aumond.

Speaker: MR. AUMOND

Thank you, Mr. Chair. The Department of Executive is creating three single-window service officer positions in Tsiigehtchic, Wrigley and Fort Resolution. The Department of Finance is creating a communications officer position with the liquor licencing and enforcement division in Hay River. The Department of Human Resources will be creating a functional recruitment officer in Inuvik. Industry, Tourism and Investment will be decentralizing the Business Incentive Policy monitoring office. There are four positions there into Hay River. Municipal and Community Affairs is going to re-profile the existing funding that they had for Mackenzie Gas Pipeline positions and create five assistant regional superintendent positions in all regions. They will be located in Inuvik, Norman Wells, Behchoko, Fort Simpson and Fort Smith. They are also going to be creating a youth officer position for the North Slave region. Health and Social Services will fund two community wellness coordinators, one each in Fort Smith and Inuvik. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Aumond. Mr. Hawkins.

Thanks very much. I think in large it speaks to what I am talking about, which is we have an opportunity to expand.

I guess I'll lead into the next area of saying, let’s start with first, can I get a copy of the list, or all Members, that is, so we can have it in front of us? What type of evaluation or discussion did the department have with the BIP office? Discussion and evaluation of the BIP office, to decentralize it. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Minister Miltenberger.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We would, of course, share that list with the Members and if they need a briefing on rationale, we could do that as well. I must confess, I didn’t quite catch the question on the BIP office. Is the Member asking what their thought was about being decentralized? I didn’t quite understand that. If I could get clarification, please.

Thank you, Minister Miltenberger. We’ll go back to the Member for clarification. Member Hawkins.

Thanks, Mr. Chairman. I guess I’m getting at the fact that what type of discussion and evaluation was considered in the BIP office to move?

The Premier and Cabinet provided direction to the government from two departments to go back to their organizations and look at what could possibly be decentralized, and in a meaningful way that cohesive units or positions that would make sense that could easily function outside of Yellowknife. The BIP office was one of the suggestions brought forward. Some of the other departments were holding off pending the outcome of decentralization, for example. ENR and ITI, for example, are heavily caught up in that they go over land and water and resource development. So those will be looked at later. So it was brought forward at the direction of Cabinet and the Premier to come forward, and based on a list of principles that we laid out, which we’d be happy to share with the Members, the rationale about why we did it and what things we were looking for. Thank you.

Are all four employees accepting a transfer? Thank you.

The deputy reminded me that we’ve already shared those principles in the rationale for the decentralization with committee, but we’d be happy to share it again. No, none of the existing incumbents will be moving. Thank you.

Sorry. For some reason I couldn’t hear that. It must be the ventilation or whatnot. But maybe if the Minister could repeat his answer on that. Are all four transferring to Hay River or what’s happening to the four bodies? Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. I’ll get clarification from the Minister. Minister Miltenberger.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There are three that are staffed, one is vacant. So there’s four total. Three staffed, one vacant and none of the incumbents have indicated they’re prepared to move; therefore, they will go on to the government’s Affected Employee Program. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister, for clarification. Mr. Hawkins.

That’s fine for now. I wanted to know what they did. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. General comments. I see there are no more general comments. What is the wish of committee? Mr. Hawkins.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move that we report progress.

---Carried

Report of Committee of the Whole

Speaker: MR. SPEAKER

Report of Committee of the Whole, Mr. Chair.