It’s clear that this policy has not been reviewed because the Minister failed to answer the question. In my Member’s statement today I had indicated 1 percent, and that is what is being quoted right from the Minister’s own words here.
Communication of government policies is a vital step in transparency, and if I pulled the information off this pamphlet, it says for a full text of the new Fiscal Responsibility Policy, go to www.gov.nt.ca/fmbs/documents/famweb. Well, when you go to this website it says, “Page cannot be found.” Can the Minister explain this? Thank you.
Mr. Speaker, the number is 5 percent not 1 percent, so the Member is incorrect. I will personally ensure that a copy of that policy is on the Member’s desk before the end of the day. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Final, short supplementary, Mr. Dolynny.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’m hoping that maybe we can have this policy for everyone to see.
Accountability is the cornerstone of transparency, and according to what this little pamphlet says on the Fiscal Responsibility Policy, government accountability for this policy is to be presented annually by the Minister of Finance in a report on the debt management results and performance criteria when the public accounts are presented.
Can the Minister indicate why we did not receive this report for the public accounts ending March 31, 2013? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, we are constantly held to that account, and to my understanding, it is embedded in part of that documented process. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Member for Frame Lake, Ms. Bisaro.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask some questions to the Minister of Finance. I want to follow up on my statement and also follow up from my colleagues’ questions earlier.
I would like to say that I appreciate the government’s willingness to do the right thing and put 25 percent of our new resource revenues into the Heritage Fund, but I am unable to reconcile the Minister’s words with the numbers that are in our budget. As I stated in my statement, the request was to put that money in -14-15, not in ‘15-16.
Mr. Bromley has asked this already, but I don’t believe I heard an answer, so I have to ask it again. The Minister states that we’re going to put 25 percent of resource revenues into the budget because that’s when the money is coming in, in ‘15-16, but the revenues are from the ‘14-15 year. Yes, we get them in our hand in 2015 or 2016, but the money is coming in and it should be allocated to ‘14-15 and it shows that in the budget, the $120 million.
I would like to know from the Minister why we record the revenues in ‘14-15 and yet we don’t record the expense in ‘14-15. Thank you.
Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. Minister of Finance, Mr. Miltenberger.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. None of that money is going to be available to flow until late 2015, so as I have indicated, we are going to honour our commitment to 25 percent and put it into the ‘15-16 budget. Yes, the deal starts on April 1st, but we’re going to wait until we get the money so we’re not going to be borrowing money at a high interest rate to put it into a fund where we’re not even sure what the number is. The money will go in in ‘15-16 as we have indicated. Thank you.
It gets more confusing every time the Minister answers a question, I think.
The Minister says that the money will not flow until ‘15, late ‘15 or early ‘16. I understand that, but if that’s the case, then the money is not flowing in until that same time, yet we are recording money flowing in in ‘14-15, so why are we not recording the money flowing out in ‘14-15? I’m not talking about the actual cash transaction; I am talking about the records on the books. We’re not going to get the cash until ‘15-16, so why are we recording it in ‘14-15? Thank you.
Mr. Speaker, we are booking a whole number of dollar figures. We are booking all the money we’re getting for our A-base transfer, for all the positions, all the programs. We are booking the notional amount of $120 million as projected revenue, and once we get the money, then we’ll talk about the expenditures which we have committed to, one of them being the Heritage Fund, the 25 percent. Thank you.
Mr. Speaker, it just does not compute for me. We are comparing apples and oranges and I cannot understand how it’s okay for us to record the revenues… It’s an accounting entry, I think the Minister said. So we are recording an accounting entry and it’s okay for revenues but we won’t do an accounting entry for expenses. So on the one hand we’re taking advantage and on the other hand the government is also taking advantage and saying we’re not going to do it in ‘14-15, we’ll do it in ‘15-16.
I’d like to ask the Minister if he can tell me, since 5 percent is presumably what the budget was presumably based on, where does that show up in the ‘14-15 budget? Thank you.
It doesn’t.
Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Final, short supplementary, Ms. Bisaro.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. That confirms what I had believed, that yes, it’s not in there.
The Minister, in his budget address, talked about 5 percent. Today was the first day that I heard that he was talking about 5 percent in ‘15-16. In all our discussions previous to this, I have never been advised that this 5 percent was not intended for the ‘14-15 budget.
I don’t have a question here, but I am quite dismayed that we’ve been led down a garden path and the only amount that’s going into the Heritage Fund for this ‘14-15 year is $250,000. Thank you.
Mr. Speaker, nobody has been led down the garden path. What we’ve had here in this House over the last few days is a very fundamental debate about what amount of money is going to be put into the Heritage Fund on a go-forward basis that will eventually be put into legislation. There was a critical first step and that’s what we’ve had.
We had listed in our budget address, in the budget, 5 percent, and if the House would have just concurred with that, 5 percent would be what would be driving us, as a government, on a go-forward basis in the Legislative Assembly. Now we have clarified that very fundamental point. That’s why it was listed there, so we could make sure it was clear in writing and resolved. Now it has been resolved and it’s 25 percent. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Member for Yellowknife Centre, Mr. Hawkins.
Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I would like to continue asking questions regarding the vacant positions with the Minister of Human Resources.
The Minister should know I’m not asking him to account for whether it’s the Department of Justice or Education or Finance or those things. I’m asking him from his policy position as Minister and steward of Human Resources.
The Minister just confirmed that some positions have been deliberately left vacant and I’ve been told by some people in the bureaucracy, even as of today, that some positions’ money is being left vacant, and that money is being left vacant for various reasons obviously, but it’s often used for other departmental purposes.
Why is this a contradiction when you can’t use doctor money that you can’t hire doctors for and you can’t use that to hire nurse practitioners, but it’s okay for department officials to turn around and not staff positions, in some cases deliberately, and use that money for other projects? Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Minister of Human Resources, Mr. Beaulieu.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As I indicated earlier, the management of the human resources and the budgeting of human resources is a responsibility of the departments. The departments need to use that money for various reasons, and one real obvious reason is when you do have vacant positions and you are in the process of filling the vacant positions, it is a complete process. When you have that many vacant positions, you can’t possibly advertise them all at once. So, they have these vacant positions and they are forced into paying overtime because there is no overtime allocated within the framework that we provide to the departments by the position.
Overtime is one big one and then, of course, just to try to meet the priorities of the department, which are priorities of the House, they would sometimes need to hire another position that’s not of the ones that are vacant but a position such as a casual to fulfil a job and so on. So, there are various reasons as to why this money is with the departments, and the departments are managing on the ground how to expend the money that’s associated with the positions.
Mr. Speaker, the Minister just said something really interesting, which is the departments can’t advertise all the positions all at once. That’s an interesting situation, because if you go to the career website, there’s barely 100 jobs there and the Minister just earlier said there is at least 1,150 jobs considered as a snapshot of vacancies. So there’s a variance of at least 1,000 jobs and we know that they are actively pursuing, although we can’t find it anywhere, 571 jobs.
So when I asked the question to the Minister – and I will ask it again – do we continue to fund these positions that nobody is in, his answer is maybe.
Can the Minister officially clear it up on the record that when a person transfers on a transfer assignment, we’ll say from the Department of Justice over to the Department of Education that even though he’s now paid by the Department of Education, the Department of Justice continues to fund that position at its home office? So in other words, that money is sitting there. Will he clear it up and tell me where that money goes? Thank you.
An individual that goes on assignment would still have the home position held for them. However, they do need to do that job that he or she was doing in the home department. So, on a transfer assignment they will backfill that position. That position stays vacant and they will backfill the position with most likely a casual or a term position until that person returns to the job. So the position is vacant. The money is used to continue to do the job that the position would do back at their home department.
Most likely, maybe, who knows, we’re not sure and when would it happen.
The money remains there, the money is there to perform the tasks that are the responsibility of the individual that is now on a transfer assignment. Those are some of the priorities that are assigned to the department that would be a part of that. So that’s what the money is used for. I don’t know what else that money could possibly be used for other than to perform those tasks in this particular case. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu. Final, short supplementary, Mr. Hawkins
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think the Minister even knows departments use money for other things other than human resources. So, finally, I keep asking how much is being accounted for all these funded positions, who knows, up to 1,151 as noted by the Minister of Human Resources. How much money is being invested through our legislative process but spent in other allocations? We don’t know. Maybe the Minister can enlighten us. Thank you.
As the Member knows, inside the main estimates we have positions, compensation and benefits. There’s a category there. The departments use that money for that purpose. At this point the indications that I have are that this is what that money is used for, it’s not expended on other things. There may be personnel hired elsewhere to do the job, but it is used to pay individuals compensation for doing the job for the Government of the Northwest Territories. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu. Mr. Moses.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Today I’ll have questions for the Minister of Finance. Discussions with the Minister of Human Resources earlier brought me on to looking at the Financial Administrative Act under Section 32.1(1), the transfer among activities. Although the act – I looked it up – states that the board, on the recommendations of the Minister responsible for an item, may transfer funds among activities set out in the estimates on which the appropriate item is based if the amount appropriated for the item as a whole is not increased.
Can I ask the Minister of Finance, up to what amount are they able to practice this transfer among activities? Can he give me an amount within the department they’re able to make that decision? Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Moses. The Minister of Finance, Mr. Miltenberger.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker, $250,000. Thank you.
So that’s $250,000 that each department is able, under the direction of the Minister responsible, to move within the department. That concerns me about accountability and transparency. So when the Ministers do this practice – I’m not sure how common it is – are there any discussions with committee or are there any discussions within Cabinet on how these dollars are moved within the department under this section of the FAA? Thank you.
The activities that the Member talks about are set out, as he’s pointed out, in Section 31.1 of the Financial Administration Act. Under that act, as well, deputy ministers, under the delegation of authority of regulations, have been delegated authority by the FMB to transfer funds among activities. Departments are required to report to the Department of Finance detailed monthly reports of all budget adjustments and transfers affecting operations, expenditures and capital expenditure appropriations. This includes transfers between expenditure categories, such as compensation and benefits, materials and supplies, and grants and contributions. Thank you.
It’s kind of related to the job positions that we’re talking about, the vacant positions that are constantly brought forward in the last few meetings here.
I’d like to ask the Minister, how common is this practice within government for the Minister and the deputy minister to be making these types of decisions? Thank you.
I’d also point out that I’m required as the Minister of Finance, under Section 31, to table each session a list of funds transferred that exceed $250,000 before the Legislative Assembly. So this is a standard management tool for an operation the size of ours, $1.6 billion budget, where the managers, the Ministers, the deputies, senior managers that manage their operations, there are the checks and balances to make sure that it’s accounted for within activities, between activities, but that ability is very, very common practice. It’s a management tool that’s absolutely critical in order to do business. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Final, short supplementary, Mr. Moses.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We heard from the Minister of Human Resources earlier about some positions that might be deliberately left vacant and that brings up the concern that a Minister can take a vacant position or two, which is equal to about $200,000, and use those funds to do certain programs or projects within the department and that’s concerning to me.
Would the Minister look at possibly looking to see if there is a way that this section can be amended to look at the responsibilities of the Ministers in not such a high amount of dollars, $250,000, would he look at amending it to a certain amount of money, or amend it so that committee also has input into how these dollars are moved around within a department? We’re going through the budget session and, obviously, there are some concerns about where these dollars are flowing. Thank you.
Cleary, this session there’s an interest by Members in terms of vacancies and this HR issue. There’s a report tabled each session in this Legislative Assembly for the Members where we can have that discussion. We’re also in the midst of a total rewrite of the Financial Administration Act, which will fully involve committee. We’re going to be looking at a total rewrite since it’s a very old document, so I believe the concerns of the Member will be able to be addressed as we look at the rewrite of that legislation. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. The Member for Hay River North, Mr. Bouchard.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’m going to follow up with some questions on the Heritage Fund that I had earlier. We discussed the issue of the 25 percent to Aboriginal groups, we discussed 25 percent to the Heritage Fund. I’m just wondering if the Minister can give me the information on the other 50 percent that we are not allocating those funds in the 2014-15 budget because the money does not flow until ‘15-16.
Thank you, Mr. Bouchard. The Minister of Finance, Mr. Miltenberger.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The 50 percent has not been allocated and we’re still having the discussion about how much goes into infrastructure and how much goes for debt servicing costs. Thank you.
I guess we are trying to figure out the math over here and when things get booked as opposed to when things get spent. I just want to reassure the public. I have a question to the Minister on the fact that the Heritage money will flow the first year that we get the first amount of money from resource revenue sharing.
Yes, Mr. Speaker.
The time for oral question period has expired. Mr. Blake.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I seek unanimous consent to return to item 5, recognition of visitors in the gallery.
---Unanimous consent granted
