Mr. Chair, the Member is correct; we are concerned with declining CMHC funding. We have made some adjustments to try to control our costs so we don’t have to keep coming back to the Assembly every year for funds to offset our losses. We did make our case to the federal Minister when we were down in Ottawa. We are planning on having an FTP quite soon, because we are the co-chairs this year. I know our other jurisdictional partners are also concerned with this because it affects them a lot more than it’s affecting us.
I believe we have briefed committee at least once or twice on what our plans are going forward. We would be more than willing to sit down with committee again and give them a concrete plan. We have a plan going forward. We look forward to sitting with committee again, and reviewing that plan and getting their input. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Chair, thanks to the Minister for the response. I do appreciate it. I think other Members also appreciate the information we have gotten from the corporation. We have had updates quite regularly and that has been very helpful.
I guess my thinking of a plan is the Minister said in his remarks that this budget has a million dollars in it to offset declining CMHC funding for 2013-14. What I would like to see as opposed to the initiatives that the corporation has planned, because I know that they are there, I would like to see the dollars that are associated with these initiatives that will say to me, we’re putting in a million dollars in 2013-14 but we’re going to do X, Y and Z, so it’s only going to be $500,000 by the time we get to, say, 2018. I don’t think that is there and if it is, my apologies to the Minister, but that’s the kind of plan that I’m looking for, specifics and dollars and cents in it.
Mr. Chair, maybe it was a slip on our part, because I know we were providing committee with an update on what we had planned to do, but the Member is correct; there were really no numbers attached to that. I can commit to the Member and Regular Members that we will put this information together. We will put some dollar figures to it, and then we’ll sit down with committee and they’ll have a better idea of exactly what we do plan on doing and how much, at the end of the day, that we’re thinking is going to save us.
I know we have sat with committee and said we are trying to reduce our public housing stock because of the maintenance dollars, but we never attached any dollar figures to it. So we will do some work on that and, at their earliest convenience, we will sit with committee and give them an update on the numbers. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Chair, I appreciate the commitment from the Minister and I look forward to that information. That’s all I have. Thanks.
Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. Mr. Bromley.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I noticed the mortgage principal and interest amounts going down steadily over the years. Maybe I can just get an explanation. If these are what we are carrying, is this related? Like, these are under other expenses so it doesn’t seem to be the grants and contributions aspect. Maybe I can get an explanation of that. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Bromley. For that answer we’ll go to Mr. Anderson.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The debt principal and interest payments are related to the debt that the corporation has borrowed, back from 1974, from Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation and it’s declining. It declines at the same pace that the agreements expire and the O and M money falls off the table to run public housing. At the end of this upcoming fiscal year, we will be down to $47.7 million at the debt level at that point. Of the payments that we make of $6.6 million, over $5 million is funded by Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation and the NWT portion is $1.4 million. Thank you.
Thank you for that explanation. That clears it up. I think I probably ask that sort of thing every year. I appreciate the refresher.
I noticed in the narrative here, they talk about the incorporation of energy-efficient technologies and so on in the housing design retrofits, but I don’t believe the expenditures in that area are on this page. If I’m right, I will hold questions until later, but if they are somewhere on this page, I will ask questions there. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Bromley. For that response we’ll go to Mr. Stewart.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. The energy investments that we’re doing in the upcoming year are actually recorded as part of the infrastructure acquisition plan that is recorded on that page. So you are on the right page.
Mr. Chair, I’m having problems finding the infrastructure acquisition. Is there a line item on that here? Sorry.
Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Can we get clarification, Mr. Stewart?
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just to clarify with the Member, are you on 5-43 or 5-45?
Mr. Stewart, we’re on page 5-45 currently.
Thank you, Mr. Chair, my apologies. The capital infrastructure was described in 5-43. So it will come up later as well.
Thank you, Mr. Stewart. Committee, we are on page 5-45, NWT Housing Corporation, information item, corporate summary, operations expenditure summary. Any questions? Seeing none, 5-46, NWT Housing Corporation, information item, active positions by region. Any questions?
Agreed.
Page 5-49, NWT Housing, Ms. Bisaro.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I’m not sure if this question belongs here, but I think so because it talks about policy. I’ve discovered over my few years here that we, unfortunately, as a government, have way too many policies that contradict each other between one department and another, particularly with regard to Income Support, Health and Social Services, and Housing.
I just wondered whether or not the corporation does any review of their policies with a view to how they conflict with other policies in other departments, with a view to ensuring that housing, people applying for housing or people in housing, that we’re looking after their best interests and that we’re taking down the hurdles as opposed to putting the barriers up for them. So it’s kind of a general question. But is looking at policies with a view to how they interact with other policies within the government something that the corporation does on a regular basis? Thank you.
Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. For that response I’ll go to Mr. Stewart.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. It is something we do on a regular basis. Certainly, when we developed the rent scale changes, for example, we spent a lot of time with ECE so that they would be able to make sure we’re aligning and adjust their policies as were necessary in terms of implementing that.
As part of the anti-poverty work, as well, we’ve spent a fair amount of time looking at the very issue that the Member raises, of how do all of these policies interact with one another and making sure there’s coherence there. Sometimes differences are there for a reason, but I think the Member is correct that it is a useful exercise to always take that look and see what’s the impact on the client of all the various policies from the various departments. So we do it on a regular basis.
Thanks, Mr. Stewart. I have to ask the question – I think it’s implied and inherent in the answer – but when you find policies that are contradictory and that do make life difficult for our residents as opposed to making it easier, are those policies changed? Thank you.
Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. A bit of a hypothetical question, but I’ll allow an answer. Mr. Stewart.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yes, they would be changed.
Thank you, Mr. Stewart. Ms. Bisaro.
Thank you. That was the answer I was hoping I would hear. So my last question has to do with the amount of flexibility in these policies. I understand that policies are set in place to try and restrict certain things, but if it’s a unique circumstance or if extenuating circumstances crop up, does the corporation have any flexibility in how they apply their policies? Thank you.
Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. For that we’ll go to Minister McLeod.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. We do have policies, and we try to follow them as closely as possible. The Member asked if we were flexible. I think we’ve proven in the past that we can be fairly flexible. One of the things we don’t want to do is do a lot of one-off deals. We’ll look at each situation as it arises, but policy sometimes is to protect ourselves, to protect the clients out there and to make everything fair for everyone. But I think we’ve proven on a couple of occasions that we can be flexible looking at individual circumstances. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister McLeod. Committee, we’re on 5-49, NWT Housing Corporation, information item, executive, operations expenditure summary. Any questions?
Agreed.
Seeing none, 5-51, NWT Housing Corporation, information item. Mr. Bromley.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I believe I’m correct in addressing my infrastructure dollars, energy efficiency stuff here. So I want to start off by saying I’m very pleased to see the investments in this line. I know we’ve addressed some of our energy costs through the work that’s been done. There’s been some progressive work over the last six years, I think I heard 1.8 or 9 percent savings in energy costs, and a significant effort being proposed for this fiscal year. It’s got my support.
My first question, was it $14 million, 171 units, about $82,000 per unit? That seems to be the cost of major renovations to achieve these sorts of efficiencies. Would the Minister know what number out of the 2,400 public housing units that we have are considered current with respect to the energy efficiency standards of today, such as EG 80 or thereabouts? I know we’ve been working on this over the last six years. So we’re doing 141 this year. We have 2,400. About where are we at in the long-term effort on this front? Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Bromley. For that we’ll go to Minister McLeod.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I apologize to the Member; we don’t have an exact number right now. One of the things that we are planning, and we’d indicated this to committee, was with the territorial information system we’re able to plug into the LHOs and their condition ratings. I think from those condition ratings we’ll be able to come up with a solid number for the Member on the number of houses that have been updated. So I’ll commit to getting all of that information to the Member once we’re able to gather the information. Thank you.
Thanks. I appreciate that. Thanks to the Minister. Just on that, where are we in the implementation of that new system? I mean, I think we have great hopes for that, and we’re finally going to see things very transparently and in one spot. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Bromley. For that we’ll go to Mr. Stewart.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. There are three basic components to the system in our information management. So there’s what’s called the territorial housing system, which is really our client system. It was implemented on April 1st of last year. It’s fully implemented now. All of the LHOs are using it and it’s working very well, I think, in terms of there’s always a certain number of growing pains. But we’re quite pleased with how well it is being used and the information that we’re able to get out of it.
The second system that we’ve developed and implemented recently is an overall asset system so that we can better track exactly the information that you just asked about in terms of not only what our stock is out there and what it looks like, in terms of the age structure and those sorts of things, but any major repairs that have been done with it and the condition ratings and those sorts of things.
Then the third system that was in last year’s business plan was a new maintenance management system. That one was to be developed this year, and it’s on track. It will be implemented on April 1st on a pilot basis in a few LHOs to test to see that it works well, and then we would hope to roll it all out, so by about July, I guess.
So between those three systems, we now have a good information system on the client side, on the maintenance side, and then on the overall asset side. So I think it’s starting to come together in terms of being able to tell a pretty good story around the housing infrastructure that we have at each community level. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
That’s good information. I missed the date that the asset system was brought on stream or will be brought on stream, but also I’ll throw in my next question. Sort of getting back to the energy side, are the 171 major retrofits, are we taking the time to select those or using all of our information so that we get the best payback, that sort of thing, rather than just sort of methodically going through them from A to B? Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Bromley. For that we’ll go to Minister McLeod.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. We go by the age of the unit and then we also go by the condition ratings that the LHOs have provided us, and we make our decision based on that. So, obviously, the older unit that hasn’t had a lot of maintenance before is a prime candidate for a major retrofit. Thank you.
I’m wondering, just to go a step further, that sounds logical, but to go a step further, is there an opportunity to look at the payback, given what the local costs of energy are, and select those that will give the quickest payback. I’m just thinking of trying to make the most efficient return to the corporation investments here.
Once again, is the assets system on stream and operational now? Thank you.
I apologize; January 1, 2013, the assets system was implemented.
To the Member’s second question, we work closely with our LHOs, obviously. They would have a pretty good indication of how much a unit is actually costing them to maintain with utilities and everything, so they would put those units forward for major retrofits. So there’s a lot of thought that goes in there, and some of the quickest payback, and we rely heavily on the information we get from the LHOs. Thank you.
Thanks for that information. On the $700,000 for pellet boilers estimated to serve about 50 units, I’m very happy to see this. We’ve talked about this for a number of years and I appreciate the Minister moving this forward. Do we know what the anticipated savings… Have we had the opportunity to do that work yet, or is this where we would start? I’m just curious.
Again, have we got locations figured out for this? Would it be in several places or are we talking a couple places where we have a concentration of units? Thank you.
We’re looking at probably a five-year payback on this investment. As far as communities go, we do have them spread out across the Northwest Territories. We’re planning on doing some in Detah/Ndilo, Fort McPherson, Fort Providence, Fort Simpson, Inuvik and Norman Wells.
That’s all I had on this page. Thank you.
Moving on with questions I have Ms. Bisaro.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I wanted to follow up on the energy infrastructure work that’s being done. I’m really pleased, as well, to see that there’s a focus on putting wood pellet boilers into a number of units.
The Minister will know that there’s a desire by the Members on this side of the House to look at replacing electric hot water heaters with oil-fired hot water heaters. I’d like to know if the corporation can advise how many units would have electric hot water heaters. Thank you.
Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. We’ll go to Minister McLeod.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We have about 100 of them in our thermal communities and we’re compiling a list to provide to the Members because, I believe, in a briefing we had the other day, I committed to providing the information to the Members. So we’re compiling that information now.
