Mr. Dolynny, Mr. Nadli, Mr. Hawkins, Ms. Bisaro, Mr. Moses, Mr. Bromley, Mr. Blake.
All those opposed, please stand.
Mr. Menicoche, Mr. Beaulieu, Mr. Abernethy, Mr. Miltenberger, Mr. McLeod – Yellowknife South, Mr. Lafferty, Mr. Ramsay, Mr. McLeod – Inuvik Twin Lakes.
Thank you. The motion is defeated seven to eight.
---Defeated
Thank you, committee. Committee, we’re on page 9-31, activity summary, corrections, operations expenditure summary, $38.928 million. Mr. Hawkins.
Thank you. I guess the same questions to the Minister. We can go through it all or I think he understands funded, unfunded, which, et cetera, et cetera. I’ve asked the question repeatedly. I think he knows the question by now. To the Minister, I guess.
Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Minister Ramsay.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yes, we can get that level of the detail for the Member.
Thank you, Minister Ramsay. Mr. Bromley.
I have a couple questions. Would the Minister know roughly how many adult inmates we have and how many juvenile inmates in the system, either now or sort of on average through the year?
Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Minister Ramsay.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The total for adults is 188. The total for youth is five.
I’ll just note our youth facilities are costing slightly over $5 million a year, so with respect to the wellness court, it would take roughly success with one-third of a youth to make payback right away. Clearly, with these sorts of numbers and the costs that we’re talking about, a wellness court is a no-brainer in terms of investment. I’m sure the Minister knows that, but I just think it’s clear enough that it needs to be underscored here and the Minister needs to put all efforts to expedite this wellness court which has taken us so many years to get going. That was a comment. I haven’t done the calculation on the 188 adults for $24 million, but I’m assuming it would be in that sort of zone.
My other question was with respect to people with FASD that end up in the correctional system. I know the Minister is aware that people with FASD require a very specialized approach for care and management and certainly for rehabilitation, so diagnosis is very important now. Diagnosis of adults is also problematic, although there are jurisdictions that have programs in place. I’m not aware that Health and Social Services has a support system for diagnosing adults with FASD.
How does the department deal with this situation, knowing that we must have a number of people with FASD in the correctional system and they really should be getting specialized rehabilitation work?
The wellness court, of course, would help in this area, as well, and I thank the Member for his support on the wellness court.
As far as FASD, at North Slave Correctional Centre we do have a specialized pod at that facility to help deal with inmates that have FASD. Also, in Fort Smith we have an educator located at the facility in Fort Smith to help with the programming for inmates that have FASD as well.
I am aware of that facility and those services. Do we have, then, a FASD diagnostic capability within Justice?
No, we currently do not have that.
I’m still confused about how people are identified with FASD then.
Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Deputy Minister Haener.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. We don’t diagnose individuals with FASD when they enter correctional facilities. What we do is an initial assessment with the individual to try to determine where their strengths lie and where we may be able to provide assistance to build upon weaknesses or deficits. We felt that, in many instances, trying to obtain a diagnosis is impossible because we must have information on whether or not the mother drank and sometimes it is impossible to obtain that information, so we focus on taking our limited resources and putting them towards trying to assess the individuals’ skills and to build from there. Thank you.
Thank you, Ms. Haener. Mr. Bromley.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Again, I am no professional, but my understanding is that the people with FASD do take a different type of care and work in rehab, so that is why I am posing the question and considering that it might be important.
It’s my understanding that it is possible, at least under addictions, to have a diagnostic methodology for adult people with the FASD. Now, that may be too expensive and whatnot, but I would say this is potentially an issue and I would appreciate some information to show that the department has looked into it quite a bit and made some decisions here, and how the treatments that we are offering, the rehabilitation work that we are offering incorporates that sensitivity and acknowledgement that you need a different approach with people with that syndrome. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Minister Ramsay.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is a difficult situation when you are dealing with the adult population in our correctional facilities. We are not alone in that, the prevalence of FASD across the country. Other jurisdictions are in a similar situation as us in trying to determine the prevalence of FASD. We have a diagnostic team at Stanton Territorial Hospital but they deal with youth and it is very much intensive. You require the services of a psychologist, a specialized pediatrician and also other health care providers, so it is something that is not easily arrived at, but we do have that through the Department of Health and Social Services.
As far as how other jurisdictions are dealing with this, we could inquire with Health and Social Services, perhaps, to find out a little bit more information about how other jurisdictions in the country are diagnosing, especially the adult population. I think it is going to be very difficult to arrive at that type of diagnosis in an adult population. Thank you.
I will leave it at that, I know the Minister is alert to the issue. I will just mention that I did have a colleague do the calculation for adults, and the cost of adults in our system is about $130,000 per person per year, so again a wellness course that is successful for three people would more than pay back, theoretically, the costs that we are proposing to invest, a very modest cost this year. I think the potential is substantially more than that, though I don’t know what is being contemplated for the pilot project, but the opportunities are huge. Just a comment again. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Bromley. I will take that as a comment. Colleagues, to page 9-13, activity summary, corrections, operations expenditure summary, $38.928 million. Agreed?
Agreed.
Page 9-32, activity summary, corrections, grants and contributions, contributions, $179,000. Agreed?
Agreed.
Page 9-33, information item, corrections, active positions. Agreed?
Agreed.
Page 9-35, activity summary, services to public, operations expenditure summary, $5.111 million. Mr. Bromley.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I wondered: from time to time we have a coroner’s office report when there has been an incident that requires particular investigation into the cause of death. I am wondering what the role of the department is in seeing that there is an official response to the coroner’s office and if they also have a role in working towards ensuring that the government follows up on those recommendations. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Deputy Minister Haener.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. When the coroner makes a report or there is an inquest, the recommendations or findings may be directed at more than one government department or to entities, including private businesses and other organizations. The recommendations are non-binding, but we do in DOJ, if they are directed at us, as well other government departments, take those recommendations very seriously. They are carefully evaluated and whenever it is reasonably possible to implement them, they are. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Deputy Minister. Mr. Bromley.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I wonder if the Minister would consider formalizing the process, when the recommendations are to the GNWT institution, that we formalize the record that the Department of Justice follow up on the response so that the public has some clarity on this. I know there is a lot of concern out there that some reports that have come out have just sort of wavered through the haze as they disappear and there is a lot of angst left behind. I would certainly like some clarity, and some transparency would be appreciated and might even serve the public in ways beyond simply clarity and transparency. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Minister Ramsay.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The office of the coroner is a separate entity. If we looked at formalizing, you know, it is the coroner’s reports and instructions to government, and to formalize that in some different fashion would change the role of the coroner’s office and that is a pretty big discussion to be having, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.
I’m sure that the Minister is aware of the issue. What would his proposal be?
I haven’t given this any thought. What the Member is suggesting would certainly change the role and the scope of the coroner’s office. That’s something that we can take away and perhaps, you know, if there is a suggestion coming from the Member or the standing committee, that’s something we can get them a response to. Thank you.
Thanks to the Minister. I think that would be useful. I am sure that the Minister is aware of the issue. I don’t necessarily see how this would be adding so much to the coroner’s office. It would not be something the coroner’s office would do; the Department of Justice would do it, take the lead for the GNWT as receiving the report and making sure that whatever department was the recipient would provide some sort of response that could be reported to the public and bring transparency that way. Just to the Minister’s perspective of this would be an extension of the coroner’s office and I don’t see that.
Could he possibly see what I’m talking about here, that it could be unrelated? The coroner does their job; the report leaves the office, that’s it for the coroner’s office. Now we’re being responsible to the public in follow-up. Thank you.
From what I’m getting from the Member’s questioning, he would almost see the department as policing recommendations that fall out of a coroner’s report. The department is not in a position to police other government departments that would be excited in recommendations of the coroner’s report. That’s not something that we do and I don’t know if it’s something we would ever anticipate doing.
I do know that there’s going to be some legislative changes to the Corner’s Act coming up. I’m not sure if it’s going to end up happening in the life of this government, but certainly that will be coming forward. Perhaps at that time, if there are some legislative changes to the Coroners Act, this might be a discussion that Members want to have when that act comes before this House. Thank you.
Thanks to the Minister. That’s an interesting thought. Again, I don’t see this as the coroner’s office. I think, in terms of a policing role, this department is well qualified to do that, but that’s not what I was suggesting either.
What I’m suggesting is bringing clarity and transparency to the public that the coroner’s recommendations in his or her report are actually received by the institution that they’re directed to and that there is a response. It doesn’t have to be yes, we’re going to do that; it could be we’re already doing that or whatever, or we’re not going to respond, but something that simply responds to the public and provides that transparency. Thank you.
Mr. Chairman, that’s something we could look at and discuss how that… You know, if it’s publicizing responses to the report, that’s something we can discuss. There might be a way to accomplish what the Member is after. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister Ramsay. Next on my list I have Mr. Moses.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just kind of staying on the same theme here with the coroner’s office, the Minister might know that this is something that has been of interest to me with the recommendations and reading of these reports and some of the alarming statistics that we do see with that.
I know in other jurisdictions they have these death review committees that offer recommendations to the government, and that poses another option of bringing accountability to government and making sure these recommendations get acted on.
Going through the Department of Justice website, looking if we had anything similar, which I don’t believe we do, I’m just wondering if the department has something that’s similar to a death review committee that would give assistance to the government about any legislation changes or policy changes that we need to address once an incident has occurred in the Northwest Territories. Obviously, they’d be working with the coroner’s office, but I’m not sure if the government has something like that. I just want to get confirmation and whether or not the department has looked into developing a death review committee for the Northwest Territories. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Moses. Minister Ramsay.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We don’t currently have a death review committee. That is something that the coroner is taking up with her colleagues from around the country. I believe Manitoba has one of those types of committees. She is still in the early stages of discussing that prospect, again, with colleagues from around the country. It’s certainly something that we may hear more about as her discussions continue with other jurisdictions on how those committees are working in other jurisdictions and whether or not there’s a possibility that we could have a death review committee established here in the Northwest Territories. Thank you.
Some of my initial research on death review committees shows that they’re very good in terms of the recommendations that are made and giving direction to government on what needs to be changed in terms of legislation or policies, or whether or not some type of action needs to be done in a small community. Obviously, there are incidents and cases where we’ve talked about policing in small communities and some of the small communities not having police officers, so that review committee might make a recommendation to include those things.
I’m looking at the number here for the coroner’s office and it’s just over $700,000. I don’t want to get a full breakdown, but how many positions are staffed at the coroner’s office here, and are some of those dollars used for the coroners’ operations for their duties in the communities? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Chairman, we have two positions there, and the Member is correct, a lot of that funding goes to communities and work of the coroners in communities. Thank you.
In terms of this budget, I know, especially when you have to go into a small community and it takes a lot to cover the cost of going into a small community plus any other expenses that may occur, it doesn’t leave much room for one of the staff members or even the coroners in the communities to do any type of awareness prevention, education around these recommendations that we see in these reports.
Is there a budget for education awareness within this office, and if so, can I ask how much of that budget is geared towards awareness and education? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
