Thank you, Mr. Speaker. WHEREAS regulating a maximum price for gasoline in the Northwest Territories would promote fairness and improve confidence for consumers and retailers throughout the Northwest Territories;
AND WHEREAS the cost of living in the Northwest Territories is high, and volatile fuel prices have a direct impact on all consumers;
AND WHEREAS a formula used to get gasoline prices would improve fairness and transparency in product pricing;
AND WHEREAS the public deserves full disclosure of the details of the price it pays for gasoline;
AND WHEREAS the Government of the Northwest Territories petroleum products division to a certain extent already regulates the price of gasoline in the communities it serves;
AND WHEREAS some Canadian jurisdictions, such as New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island, regulate petroleum product prices in a manner that can avoid artificial pricing and offer a measure of equity and stability to retailers and consumers;
NOW THEREFORE I MOVE, seconded by the honourable Member for Nahendeh, that the Government of the Northwest Territories investigate and evaluate the possibility of regulating gasoline prices;
AND FURTHER, that the Government of the Northwest Territories provide a comprehensive response to this motion within 120 days.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. The motion is in order. To the motion. Mr. Hawkins.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I stand, as well as a lot of Members in this Assembly will stand, with Northerners. We feel we need to be meek no more and we want to stand up against big oil and corporate greed. I need not teach this House a lesson on cost of living. It’s something we all understand very well, but the problem is Northerners are being priced out and certainly being outpaced by the cost of living here in the North.
The status quo can no longer be defended by ignoring this problem. We must call these people and these protection measures to account by asking for regulation of gasoline. The time has long passed and every Northerner out there knows it. Five provinces in Canada stand with their citizens. It’s time the GNWT stands with their citizens. We must confront the status quo by taking this fight to the very end. This hill is one worth charging up against. It’s one worth dying on. Fuel price regulation is an important issue.
Now, I expect the government to resist as they always resist all good ideas, and better yet, they will probably fight this to the very end and feel that there will be endless amounts of paperwork to justify why status quo is so important, why Northerners matter less in their view, and why big oil should be protected. I expect that fight, but concerns from Northerners about price fixing will continue until this government does something. It’s about proving the price, ensuring that our Northerners are protected.
We all see prices go up and down all over the world. They go up in Edmonton. They go up in the North, but when they go down in Edmonton, they do not go down here in the North.
People sit here puzzled, wondering why Northerners need to continue to pay unfair, high, inflated prices. The cost of living is being impacted here. It hurts every Northerner. I don’t blame the local on-the-ground vendor who does supply that fuel by the big oil. They’re just doing their job. They don’t set those prices because the people who do set those prices live in Toronto, they live in New York, they live in Houston. The only time they come north is when they want to come inspect and maybe fly north to the Sahtu or maybe in other regions to inspect their assets and maybe even go fishing. But the fact is, they have no vested interest on what it’s like with the cost of living here in the North.
The problem is simple: We need to find a solution. Five Canadian provinces had the courage to push back. Today I ask this government to have the courage and push back. Are they standing with big oil or are they standing with Northerners? It is our job to fight for Northerners and certainly for their protection and most definitely in the public’s interest.
So will this government care about Northerners or will this government care about big oil? Now, government will continue the narrative about, my goodness, we have consumer protection. Well, I can tell you, for a fact, the public does not have confidence in our consumer protection and I’ll tell you why. The reality truly on the ground is they have mandate, they have no teeth to protect. Now, we could run complaints up the flagpole and go to a higher source, but the reality is, it’s too expensive for the little guy to go out there and fight the machine. It’s almost impossible to prove collusion. So apathy continues because people do not believe their government stands with them. They believe that their government has other alternative objectives. They’re busy with other ideas, they’re busy with other things, but when does government’s attention say we must protect the cost of living of the little guy? It’s a telling story in and of itself.
I’m not suggesting government is evil or our government is evil by any ways, but I’ll say status quo in itself is evil. So the price fluctuates all over the North, but it only cranks up here for Northerners. It grows whether you live in Fort Smith, they’re all stuck the same as Yellowknife. Whether you live in Fort Providence, it sucks, the prices do not show competitive ranges and that type of philosophy must end.
Sorry, Mr. Speaker, my passion is certainly getting the best of me. It’s time this government starts fighting for the everyday citizen and defend the Northerners’ interest, the public’s interest, our interest. We must rally against the status quo. If this Cabinet wants to snuggle up warm and comfortable in the embrace of big oil and status quo, they’re welcome to, but don’t defend it to me. Defend it to the 43,000 people out these doors because they deserve answers and certainly not excuses. Remember, there are 43,000 people outside of this building right now trying to get by. So do they stand with Northerners or do they stand for big oil?
We cannot accept status quo because that’s what managers do. Leaders challenge it every day. So in closing to my opening comments, I want to say there are no 50 shades of grey on this issue; it is black, it is white. So either Cabinet will stand with the people or they’ll stand with big oil.
So, in case I forget later, I’ll say we deserve a full account of this motion. So I would like a recorded vote. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. I’ll allow the seconder to the motion to speak to it. Mr. Menicoche.
Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I was pleased to second this motion only because I, too, believe that if you look at the whereas it’s about taking the time to investigate how prices are set, taking the time to see how they do it in all the communities and regions. I believe that we should listen to our people as well. People want to know and they want to be assured that they’re not being gouged at the pumps and I think that’s what this motion speaks about, to investigate and evaluate the possibility of regulating gasoline prices. I see no harm in that and I think we should use our resources to try to get these answers for our people. That’s all this motion calls for. We should do our part to show the people the transparency of how they set prices and just to ensure, once again, that people aren’t being gouged at the pumps. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. To the motion. Mr. Bouchard.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. When I first read this motion I did have the feeling that, from a business perspective, to say, well, let’s stay fair and let business do business, but I think there’s a lot of people in the general public that are concerned with pricing and the way the pricing of fuel and gasoline happens. We have an event that happens in the Middle East one day and the next day the prices at the pumps in Hay River, Yellowknife, Inuvik and Tuktoyaktuk change immediately where that has nothing to do with the inventory that sits in those tanks at that time.
So I support this motion in the fact that it gives direction for our Cabinet to investigate and evaluate the processes similar to the ones in New Brunswick and PEI, where they have a regulation in place that controls the pricing. It’s a very big cost to the Northwest Territories. Our cost of living is one of the issues that the general public is out there talking about all the time, and it doesn’t hurt us out there to investigate the possibility to do some sort of regulation.
Like the mover said, I don’t think this is dealing with the mom and pop operation that’s selling fuel. It’s more the conglomerates that are dealing the prices, the fact that Houston makes a decision that they want to increase the prices on a May long weekend or some sort of a long weekend, and then the next day it comes along and the next day the price rises, but the inventory that was there two days ago has nothing to do with the price that Houston decided they were going to charge the people for the May long weekend.
So I think we should investigate this, look at the potentials of implementing this in the Northwest Territories, and once we have that information, let’s make an assessment and let’s go from there. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Bouchard. To the motion. Mrs. Groenewegen.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I will also be supporting the motion. At the beginning of the 17th Assembly I did pose a question to the Minister of MACA and I asked if we could begin, as a government, to track the cost of fuel at the pumps and at the home heating delivery trucks compared to the price of crude or what other benchmarks are out there, and I believe that this was undertaken by MACA and I do appreciate that. But we are at the mercy of the folks that set these prices. It does seem curious that when the prices go up at the pump it’s an immediate reaction, and when the prices go down nothing happens. When you also compare our costs here compared to other places like northern Alberta even, I mean, there is no way that it is just transportation cost as a difference. It is far gone and above that.
So we are kind of being held hostage here on the fuel prices and the fact that this is an essential commodity, essential services are treated differently in industry and an essential commodity like home heating oil and gasoline for our vehicles is extremely essential in the North, and we don’t exactly have the opportunity to come up with other solutions in the short term. Although, Mr. Bromley would disagree with me on that.
Anyways, I will be supporting the motion. We do definitely need to look into this. Thank you.
Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. To the motion. Ms. Bisaro.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’m conflicted about this motion. I appreciate the intent of the motion and I thank Mr. Hawkins and Mr. Menicoche for bringing it forward, but I’m not so sure that regulating our gas prices is what is required. I accept that it’s asking for an investigation, but I am particularly disturbed by the fact that Yellowknife has a gas price that is, give or take, 20 cents more than what it is in Hay River, which is 300, 500 miles away, but that does not, in my mind, explain why we have such a large difference in gas prices. So it’s very perplexing to me and I think that it’s probably more of a “local Yellowknife problem” than it is a territorial problem.
We’ve had evidence of prices going down in Hay River and in Edmonton and prices in Yellowknife staying absolutely the same, and I feel, much as many constituents do, that it’s an unfair situation. I don’t like paying $1.389 for my gas, absolutely not. But I think what is required, perhaps more so than regulation, is that we need to mobilize and consumers need to mobilize themselves. There are a number of things that consumers can do and I think probably the biggest one is certainly, if anybody changes their gas price, go buy your gas where it’s cheapest, but if all the outlets stay the same, which they have done for two years now, then consumers need to complain to the operators, need to complain to the owners. If consumers do not do that then that’s on us because we’re not letting our feelings be known to those that are supplying us with the gas.
My understanding is that it’s, and we will have differences of opinion on this, but there’s little I believe that government can do to force operators to change their prices. I accept that there’s regulation, but I’m very hesitant to suggest that regulation and forcing operators to set their prices is where we want to go.
The other thing that consumers can do that I want to mention is that we do have a Consumer Protection Act and it doesn’t have a lot of teeth in it, but there is a resolution process within that act and if consumers feel so inclined, they can go to Municipal and Community Affairs and they can lay a complaint and it can be dealt with through the resolution process. I would encourage any Yellowknifers out there who feel that we are unjustly being treated to a high price of gas to take one of the two actions which I have suggested. I won’t vote against this motion but I will be abstaining.
Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. To the motion. Mr. Dolynny.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I’d like to thank the mover of the motion. Obviously today, he’s very passionate, and our seconder, Mr. Menicoche. The motion really speaks more about cost of living than anything else, and it’s affecting, I think, more so the cost of living, as Ms. Bisaro said, in Yellowknife. I think that’s important that we make a note here today.
I think the question that many of us have is, why? Why do we pay more? Why do gas prices appear not to fluctuate as we possibly see in southern markets? I think that comes down to the unique type of competition that we have in the North. Our supply and demand are definitely in a bit of a premium. We have transportation costs that are incurred more so than we would see down south. Now we have bridge tolls to add on to that. We do have lower volumes per se, so that’s going to affect our prices. We definitely have generally higher overhead than most of our retailers down south. Our labour and electricity costs, for one, are going up, and our infrastructure is definitely higher.
I want to talk about our taxes for a second and I want to spend just a second on that. The NWT tax rate is set by the Petroleum Tax Act, and our tax for people who are on the highway is 10.7 cents per litre. If you’re off the highway, it is 6.4 cents per litre, which I think is an interesting disparity that we have there. To put that into perspective, Alberta is at 9 cents per litre in their tax act and if we compare that to our two territories, Yukon is 6.2 cents and Nunavut is 6.4 cents. More importantly, the fact that our tax rates have not been looked at since 1997, I think that is a dart and bull’s-eye that should be looked at as we think about this motion and the challenge.
The motion speaks to investigating and evaluating the regulating of gasoline prices. It asks some clarity that the public has been asking for. I think that’s an important point I needed to flesh out here. I don’t have a problem with the investigating part, but I do have a concern about telling retailers or the market what prices they should set. We are a free market society and I don’t want to leave that out in the cold, and I don’t want to impose any restrictions on that free market.
For the record, I have talked to many of my local retailers that sell petroleum products and I can tell you that they have been adjusting their prices according to rack rates. There is no, in my mind, collusion or price fixing that I see in my riding and I have a number of retailers, probably more so than any of the ridings here. I just want to make sure that there is not a conspiracy out there, as probably mentioned by the Member, but maybe an observation for us to look at.
Based on what I indicated about the tax rate, I would challenge the petroleum products division to take a look at that in looking at this motion and putting forth changes here. Of course, I know that this will affect some of our revenues in the Consolidated Revenue Fund, but I think that would be justified in the eyes of the consumer. I would challenge him to look at that 10.7 cents per litre for those that are on our highway system and maybe put them on line with the non-highway rates.
Therefore, the motion speaks to investigating and evaluating and does not make direct reference to telling businesses what to do, and I think that’s important. Therefore, with that, I really appreciate Mr. Hawkins and Mr. Menicoche bringing it forward and I will be supporting this motion under those terms.
Thank you, Mr. Dolynny. To the motion. Mr. Bromley.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I do appreciate the Members bringing this motion forward. I am absolutely not happy with the distributors of gasoline, the retailers who are putting such a markup on our gas prices and consistently across distributors. It shows a real lack of competitive spirit. I think already we’ve seen a response from the Minister of MACA who has done some investigation on what our authority is in this area and, unfortunately, I think the window of opportunity for doing much about this is small from a GNWT standpoint. The Minister raised a number of valid points and certainly that’s one of them.
Another consideration, of course, is we are the actual distributor in many Northwest Territories communities. There are thermal communities further north and so on. That’s not true here, obviously, but there’s quite a difference between other communities such as Hay River and Yellowknife. This is primarily a Yellowknife issue.
I would say that we need to be seeking ways to spur competition. I will be doing that to ensure that the government does use whatever modest authority they do have. I will be also seeking ways to increase competition on my own. I think the public needs to play a role here. Of course, the very best way to deal with this is to decrease the demand. By decreasing demand, that will spur competition for sure. There are a lot of good vehicles on the market now that get a lot better mileage and, of course, there’s public transit and so on. Those are all considerations that we should be thinking about and will have a lot of other benefits with them.
The opportunity for the GNWT intervention is small; nevertheless, I do appreciate this motion being brought forward and I will not be opposing it.
Thank you, Mr. Bromley. To the motion. Mr. Yakeleya.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I just want to say that it costs $220 to fill up a 150 type pickup in Norman Wells. My question is if this motion is going to investigate and look at it and that’s it, I just want to know why. I will be supporting this motion.
Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. To the motion. Mr. Moses.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Really quickly, you’ve heard a lot of really good comments on this side of the House, and I just want to let you know that I will be supporting this motion. Speaking for the harvesters of the Northwest Territories, especially those on the coastal communities that have to go out hunting and trapping to make a living, who don’t have regular jobs, the high cost of gas is really reflecting that. I just want to thank Mr. Menicoche and Mr. Hawkins for bringing this motion forward and I will be supporting it today.
Thank you, Mr. Moses. To the motion. Mr. Blake.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I, too, will be supporting this motion, as a lot of my constituents in my riding would like to pay the same prices as the people in the southern part of the territory. My residents pay anywhere from $1.65 per litre in Fort McPherson to $1.80 in Tsiigehtchic. We need to have the same prices as they do here in the south.
Thank you, Mr. Blake. I will allow Mr. McLeod to speak.
Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. First of all, I just want to say, in listening to the movers’ comments, that it’s unfair to say that this government does not care and this government is not standing up for the people of the Northwest Territories. While it makes for good theatre, it’s not exactly what this government does. I think we’ve proven that we look after the interests of the people of the Northwest Territories and to say otherwise, to me, is untrue.
I would like to say that some of the comments that were made were very good comments. Ms. Bisaro’s comments about it’s mostly a Yellowknife issue, Mr. Bromley mentioned the same thing, and it really is, because I’ve heard the concerns that prices here haven’t changed for the last 18 months. In many of our communities out there the prices do fluctuate a bit, so if they get a fairly good deal on the fuel, the prices may be adjusted accordingly. I know through our petroleum products division, when they get a good deal on fuel bringing it into the communities, the prices are adjusted accordingly. We do look after the interests of the people of the Northwest Territories and we all agree, as Mr. Blake said, some of the communities further north would love to pay some of the prices that we have down here. However, as Mr. Dolynny said, it’s a free market enterprise and prices are set on getting the product to the fuel stations.
