Thank you, Mr. Vician. Mr. Bromley.
Is it the understanding of this department that the MGP will not be going ahead for several years, likely late 20-teens, 2020?
Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Mr. Ramsay.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That would be unknown at this juncture.
Thanks for that interpretation of everybody pulling out. I’m sure that’s getting some chuckles across the territory on a very serious subject. Given that the MGP will not be pulling forward, is this just blind support that we freely give away taxpayers’ money on an impossible venture to which there will be absolutely no progress possible for the next few years? Or are we requiring some response for those dollars such as they become experts in biomass and start doing some biomass projects or something like that? Obviously, they’re based, I believe, in Inuvik and there are serious energy issues there and we’re talking about renewable energy as one option. What are we doing? Is this blind support, no questions asked? Here’s $300,000 of taxpayers’ money despite so many demands?
The Government of the Northwest Territories has supported the Aboriginal Pipeline Group in the past and we’re continuing to support the APG. It’s important that we do that. I don’t believe it’s going blindly. I believe it’s supporting the potential advancement of the Aboriginal Pipeline Group. When the Mackenzie Gas Project does go ahead, they will own one-third of that pipeline and it will be the big piece of the capacity building for Aboriginal groups in the Northwest Territories. Our support of the APG is integral to that advancing. With the MGP, we’re optimistic that it will see the light of day, and it’s a matter of when, not if.
The issue is that we know the when does not include the next number of years. So this I view as close to insanity and certainly irresponsible use of taxpayers’ dollars. I wonder if the Minister would commit to giving us a full accounting for the dollars that we’ve given the Aboriginal Pipeline Group this current year or last year and if we can expect that to occur for this fiscal year for this $300,000.
We’d be pleased to provide that to the Member. Last year we gave APG $300,000 and we can certainly get an accounting of that $300,000 for the Member.
Just on the Resource Predevelopment Program and the Aboriginal capacity building and community consultations, could I get a breakdown of what those are for as well?
Yes, we can supply that to the Member.
That’s all. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Page 12-18, Industry, Tourism and Investment, activity summary, minerals and petroleum resources, grants and contributions, contributions, total contributions, $925,000.
Agreed.
Thank you. Page 12-19, Industry, Tourism and Investment, activity summary, information item, minerals and petroleum resources, activity positions.
Agreed.
Thank you. Page 12-21, Industry, Tourism and Investment, activity summary, energy, operations expenditure summary, $1.619 million. Mr. Yakeleya.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Minister mentioned about the small hydro initiatives and I want to ask the Minister, what do the community of Deline specifically and the people from the Sahtu and the Northwest Territories look forward to in this budget to see if the Deline or Great Bear hydro project would actually see some design, some steps towards construction of a possible mini-hydro in that area. They’ve been at it for about nearly 16 or 17 years. I guess when is this talking going to start and when are we going to see some action putting that hydro in the Bear River?
Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Vician.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We continue to support the development of hydro and renewable energy solutions across the territory, and of particular interest to the Member is the ongoing effort in the Sahtu region looking at the development of the resources that are available for hydro development on the Bear particularly. We continue to work with the regional community groups out of Deline and part of the funding proposed in this year’s budget with regard to renewable energy initiatives is $100,000 to look at areas including the Sahtu-Deline hydro development.
We certainly look forward to it. I again ask, we continue looking, studying, studying and studying, and fly to different locations, and look at this plant, but other than contributing dollars to further studies and further studies I ask the question when will this hydro project see construction phases. When? The community’s been waiting for 16 or 17 years. Now he’s telling me there’s going to be another $100,000 study and next year there’s going to be another one.
I’m getting a little bit frustrated on this side here. I’d like to see some construction. The high cost of living in the Sahtu, people in Deline have been waiting for this. I know the goodness in the Minister’s heart and staff is there, but we need to see something other than putting another $100,000 to a study. I believe probably this is the most studied hydro initiative other than Lutselk'e or Whati or any other. You put $37 million in the Blue Fish hydro plant here. Why don’t you put some money in the Bear River? You put money elsewhere. You were going to throw a whole bunch of money to the Taltson and the mines. That didn’t follow through. Yet, we’re still waiting in Bear Lake.
The Bear Lake hydro power can power Tulita and Norman Wells. It can cut the costs down in Deline. If we don’t smarten up, the people in Deline just might go without us and we’d have nobody to blame but ourselves. I know they’re being patient and they’ve been working and you guys have been working hard.
Again, I want to ask the Minister, I appreciate the $100,000 plan for it but it does nothing but put papers there and studies. That doesn’t bring the power down in Deline or anywhere. All it tells you is what possibly could happen. I’d like to ask the Minister again, and I might not get an answer here, and that’s okay. I accept that. I accept it of this government here that they’re not going to do anything in terms of constructing the hydro in Bear River for the people. But I can see a lot of the projects going on in the Northwest Territories that had less than 16 years to wait.
I guess I’m venting a little bit and I appreciate them listening to my venting, but I would appreciate if the Minister can give me some time frames. I don’t know if I’m putting him on the spot or on this government, but I’d certainly like to see a hydro project up in Bear Lake or something to reduce their energy. If I look at that list I had last week and I can see that $16 million went right around the Sahtu. How many other communities had projects going in there to reduce their cost of living? We didn’t get very much in the Sahtu. That’s what I want to tell the Minister, and this is one project that they’ve been asking for.
Again, I ask the Minister. I’m frustrated. I’m venting, but I certainly want to see a project in the Bear River sometime. I hope it’s a little bit sooner than later. I want to ask the Minister again: When can we start seeing some construction other than more studies? Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the Member’s concerns, and I also appreciate his passion about hydro and the development of hydro not only in the Sahtu but in the territory. That’s important.
With respect to the situation on the Bear, we have had money in the past to look at various hydro solutions for that river with the community of Deline and we’ve yet to establish a feasible solution on that river. I recently had the opportunity to meet with the president of the land corp, new Chief Kenny, and we had a very good meeting and they explained to us a new approach to hydro development on the Bear which would include a channel being run parallel to the river itself and wouldn’t involve damming the river at all. That’s something we want to explore with the community of Deline.
We believe this is an indication that we’re still very supportive of the advancement of hydro in the Sahtu. We do look forward to the day when we can find a viable solution to the Bear. When we do find that, we’re going to have to identify the capital dollars associated with developing that potential, and that could be substantial. I thank the Member again for his concern.
I’ve been a Member as long as the Minister’s been a Member and this has been a passion of mine for a long, long time. The Minister knows where I’m coming from. He would sit with us one day on this side and now he’s a Minister. He’s actually the Minister of this project here. So I’m hopeful that Minister keeps an eye on this and works with the people in Deline and myself to get and keep this issue going here.
I want to ask the Minister in regard to the energy plans in the Northwest Territories. I know the communities have been busy working on their energy plans. I think there’s some correlation to the federal government’s funding. I’m not too sure how that works quite in detail. I may be wrong on the energy plans, putting together the community energy plans. I know the development of these energy plans is something that’s very important to our people, and I want to ask the Minister, in brief, their plans for the upcoming year to see these energy plans be renewed or fully developed in the Northwest Territories and how we’re going to connect with the GNWT’s energy priorities through the communities’ energy plans. Thank you.
I thank the Member for that. The subject of community energy plans doesn’t fall necessarily under ITI’s mandate, but to my recollection most communities are completed through the Building Canada Plan their community energy plans. That question may be better suited maybe when MACA is before committee. But that’s my understanding. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Page 12-21, activity summary, energy, operations. Mr. Moses.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I just have concerns here, again, back to my opening comments about the decrease in the amount of dollars committed to energy. We do have two communities here that are going to be in dire need. Inuvik is one of them, and it’s going to be sooner than later. Who knows when that’s going to happen? Then we’ve got Norman Wells coming up in a couple years. To have the amount of money that’s contributed to it, there’s already been discussions of due to the budget address that we had earlier in the year where it was mentioned that it was $100,000 for the wood pellets and the boilers, and people are already talking about using that funding to convert back and getting off natural gas just because of the situation that’s on there. We’re looking at long-term solutions, obviously. For the town of Inuvik, that’s something that we don’t want to see, but with the high cost of living, is this something that the Minister is willing to take a look at and maybe adding more dollars to the medium- and long-term solution planning, other than just the $100,000 that’s allocated there? Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Moses. Minister Ramsay.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. With the funds that we do have, we will continue to put those to the best use possible and continue to pursue solutions. I think that’s the most important thing. Through MECC we are continuing to pursue a solution. Again, I believe we will be meeting with the IJV and the town again later this week. We have been front and centre when it comes to the situation in Inuvik and we will continue to be so. Thank you.
With the announcement of the Minister’s address, I’ve been getting a lot of phone calls from my constituents back in Inuvik in regard to how to use this $100,000, and as the other $100,000 that’s been allocated to do a strategic plan, as the planning process continues to move forward and all the leaders are at the table discussing how we can best deal with this situation, while discussions are going on there are a lot of worried people in the community of Inuvik with the residents and constituents. I do know that there is a meeting going on tomorrow and I hope we get some really positive outcomes of that.
As my colleague has stated earlier in regard to energy, this government is spending millions of dollars on subsidizing the fuel costs throughout the Northwest Territories. Those are monies that we can be looking at saving in the future by investing today, investing in our future today so that we don’t have to pay the costs further down the road.
Those are just some general comments. I do know there is a meeting tomorrow. I just hope that we get the best solutions out of that. It would be unfortunate if this was the only money allocated and then we have to find solutions elsewhere, but I look forward to hearing the outcomes of those. I look forward to seeing what can be addressed. That is the Inuvik situation, but as I mentioned, Inuvik and Norman Wells are the two main ones, but it is communities right across the Northwest Territories, the high cost of living. That is it, Mr. Chair. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Moses. There was kind of a question there. Mr. Ramsay, would you like to address it?
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the Member’s observations on this. The most important thing is we continue to move forward, we find solutions, and the situation in Inuvik is not cut and dried. It is very complex. It is going to be difficult to find a solution, but I believe by working together we will find that solution and move forward.
We can’t take our eye off the opportunities like in hydro, biomass or solar. I think we continue to pursue those initiatives and eventually that reinvestment will have to happen in the area of alternative energy. We will have to identify money as government goes forward into these areas. I can see that happening when our financial situation improves. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister Ramsay and Mr. Moses. Page 12-21, activity summary, energy, operations expenditure summary, $1.619 million. Mr. Bromley.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think my colleague has expressed concerns about this area, as we did in our motion in the House on Thursday. This is a walloping 78 percent cut to energy planning. I know there has been concern about the lack of progress on this front during the 16th Assembly despite spending a lot of dollars, so we perhaps do indeed need to go back to the drawing board and do some better planning there.
On the other hand, we have done a lot of feasibility work and feasibility studies. We have, in my mind, procrastinated to the point where some of those opportunities are now slipping by the wayside as fossil fuel prices have gone beyond what the original estimates were. We need to be lighter on our feet and take advantage of opportunities when they are here.
ITI is actually now down to $1.1 million. It is not the $1.6 million here. According to the Minister’s opening remarks, in terms of energy initiatives, $1.15 million in energy initiatives, $700,000 of which is providing money to the NTEC – that is the Northwest Territories Energy Corporation – for core funding for staff. Does that mean we are hiring seven staff here? Maybe I can get an explanation of what the $700,000 is for. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Mr. Vician.
Mr. Chair, the funding that is proposed for funding NT Energy is similar to what has been done in previous years to provide a core team of experts that are able to deal with the solutions particularly regarding electricity development, hydroelectricity development across the territory. The funding is targeted to supporting three permanent positions and an additional staff, and consulting, and travel, and energy work associated with the hydro projects that are being looked across the Northwest Territories. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Chair, thanks to the deputy minister for that explanation. I am just trying to get my finger on the pulse here. Were these dollars not available for work last year and in the past several years? Is this a new level of work being planned? I am just wondering. It seems like if we had staff, we should have been funding them. I am wondering where this is in the context of the last few years. Thank you.
Mr. Chair, I know we are not on the page, but 12-22 does reflect the contributions made to NTEC in a similar pattern over the past few years. That funding is approved on an annual basis. Through a contribution agreement with the Energy Corporation, we provide the funding. The Energy Corporation makes its own determination on the staff level and has hired experts on a multi-year basis, on that basis that there would be funding on an ongoing program level. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Chair, of course the reason I am looking at this is because it is sort of part of the dollars indicated under energy planning, I believe. Am I correct that we actually did have that in past years? For some reason it is not on the page.
Mr. Chair, yes, the funding was identified in past years and you will note the levels that are identified in the main estimates reports under 12-22 at $1.250 million and previous years it was higher than that at $1.5 million and actuals reflect almost that expenditure in 2010-11. This would be reflected upon approval of the budget at a $700,000 level for the 2012-13 purpose. Thank you.
Mr. Chair, thanks again for that explanation. I didn’t realize we were talking about different categories there. We have a new category here which is now NT Energy core funding for staff. I think I understand now. Again, a substantial drop from $1.25 million and, plus, $4.75 million in the past. This year $700,000 is the replacement figure.
Just quickly in my head, we are going from $6 million down to $700,000. Again, it is quite a drop and at a time – at the risk of repeating myself over departments – when energy issues and cost of living are indeed the issue of the day as well as economic development, which this is the biggest factor in supporting.
I know we have mines that are being considered under environmental review for hydroelectricity. We have grids in the NWT that we would like to see tied together. We have communities that are not – they are currently on diesel energy – that have had substantive feasibility work done, who are hollering for stabilized and reduced power prices, especially in the face of the 30 percent increase, that is, plus it is proposed now over the next few years. Some decisions have been made and choices have been made. I think I am not very comfortable with those choices, given that this has been repeatedly identified as a major issue for us.
I look forward to further discussion on this page. I think we did a deferral in ENR; we could do another one here. I think the issues are closely tied together, and should there be a proposal to defer this page, I certainly would support that proposal. I look forward to further discussion. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Bromley. More of a comment, unless the Minister would like to reply to that one.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I understand what the Member is getting at and I appreciate his point of view. Thank you.
On the floor I have Mr. Nadli.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I think the point is that in terms of energy and in terms of what’s been proposed in terms of the public consultation in terms of looking at the Power Corporation, I can’t help but sense the plight of consumers and their concern because of the increased costs of energy that we provide to our communities. I think as a responsible government we need to ensure that we create options for our consumers. I think the initiatives in terms of some of the alternative energy programs that this government has undertaken is good and I think it’s a good step. There’s nothing really stopping us from trying to go all the way to create at least some initiatives that are very friendly. Like today, I think one of the key initiatives that have been clearly supported is the biomass initiative, and the news indicated that it’s doable at the community level. Communities can have plans of processing pellets so that they have an alternative to provide heat to their houses and businesses.
On one hand we tried to create business opportunities and make it a very conducive climate for business to operate, and to try and invigorate the economy we need to be mindful that we don’t constrain at least the business sector and the people that create jobs and opportunities. We need to ensure that they have a liaison, some alternatives in terms of energy sources.
So, clearly, energy is something that I would think we’d place priority on and ensure that we create some alternatives. I think the public would expect us to do that.
Thank you, Mr. Nadli. Minister Ramsay.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the Member’s comments. There is a correlation there with the cost of energy and developing the economy and whether or not businesses have that atmosphere or the environment to succeed in. Utility costs are something that we need to pay attention to certainly. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister Ramsay. Mr. Nadli. Thanks. Moving on to questions I have Mr. Yakeleya.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have a question for the Minister. I know the Minister sits with the Ministerial Energy Coordinating Committee. Is that true?
Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Minister Ramsay.
Yes, it’s the Ministerial Energy and Coordinating Committee and Climate Change. Yes, climate change is included in there.
