Thank you, Mr. Dolynny. Is committee agreed?
Agreed.
Thank you, committee. We’ll take a short break.
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Committee, I’d like to call Committee of the Whole back to order. We’re just going to get clarification here. Ms. Bisaro.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would just like to confirm that committee would like to consider the tabled document before us, Department of Education and Transportation, as well, if we get that far. Thank you.
Okay. Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. Does committee agree?
Agreed.
We’ll just add that to today’s list of agenda items. Minister Lafferty, do you have witnesses you’d like to bring into the Chamber?
Yes, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Lafferty. Does committee agree?
Agreed.
Great. If I can get the Sergeant-at-Arms to please escort the witnesses into the House, please. Thank you.
Mr. Lafferty, would you like to introduce your witnesses to the House, please.
Mahsi, Mr. Chair. I have with me, to my left is Gabriela Eggenhofer, deputy minister, Education, Culture and Employment, and Mr. Paul Devitt to my right. He is the director of strategic business services with the Department of Education, Culture and Employment. Mahsi.
Thank you, Minister Lafferty. Mr. Devitt, Ms. Eggenhofer, welcome back to the House.
Committee, we are page 10-13, Education, Culture and Employment, activity summary, directorate and administration, operations expenditure summary, $10.521 million. I have Ms. Bisaro.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have a number of questions in this section. I’d like to start with culture and heritage. I spoke last week about a request from a number of heritage groups in the NWT to the Minister to provide a bit more of a focus on heritage. The Minister, I think, sort of suggested that we do stuff for culture, and I’m not saying that we don’t. Or for heritage, I should say. There is a portion under this section of Education… Oh, sorry. We’re not on that page yet, are we? We’re on page 13. Right, Mr. Chair?
Okay. Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. Yes, we’ll address that when we get to the appropriate page. Moving on this page for questions, I have Mr. Bromley.
No questions.
Moving on this page, I have Mr. Hawkins.
I have questions on page 13. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I’m going to ask about the leadership structure of Aurora College and how they’re tied into the Department of ECE. The reason I’m asking that is because last week I had asked questions about the capital planning for an Aurora College and how that process begins. To be clear and to make sure no one is fooled by my question, I’m not asking for the capital project this coming budget because we’re in an operations budget, so, as such, the planning is an operational issue.
Maybe if the Minister can enlighten us as to how the role of the Board of Governors and the president of the college plug into the administrative level of the Department of Education, Culture and Employment. Is the college in charge of the college? Is some director somewhere within the department in charge of the college? Because I want to get a sense of how we plan for a college. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Minister Lafferty.
Mahsi, Mr. Chair. Through the reporting mechanism, the president works closely with my deputy minister and also assistant deputy ministers pertaining to operations within the college. We provide funding on an annual basis and they provide a report at the end of the year. Then there is also a reporting mechanism within the college through board chairs and myself, as the Minister responsible. At the same time, we are going through a review of the reporting structure and accountability framework between the college and also working closely with my Department of Education, Culture and Employment. That is before us. It should be concluding real soon and we will be sharing that with the standing committee.
If I may, just to elaborate even further on detail of the reporting structure, I will ask my deputy.
Thank you, Minister Lafferty. Ms. Eggenhofer.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. The review, as the Minister stated, will clarify the roles and responsibilities in terms of what’s set out in the legislation and what’s actually happening on the ground. We should have that by the end of March, with some recommendations on how we can improve, certainly around roles and responsibilities. But I can say that I’m in close contact with the president of the college and we have a good working relationship between the department and the college.
Thank you, Ms. Eggenhofer. Mr. Hawkins.
As it stands today, is the president of the college treated as an associate deputy minister when they report to the Department of Education, Culture and Employment? Are they treated as a director? Are they treated as an assistant deputy minister? Can you help define the role, because I want to get to the planning question, and I want to make sure that if it’s clear on the record who is in charge of the president. Or are they on a shoulder-to-shoulder support role with the deputy minister in a similar manner and they report up through the Minister? I guess, in essence, who’s in charge of the president, setting aside the board governance factor, Mr. Chairman? But who’s in charge and who can apply direction and lack thereof, wording, orders for direction to the president?
Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Lafferty.
The reporting and also appointing is laid out in the legislation. The president reports to the board, the Board of Governors for Aurora College. Also, I have working relations through various areas with the president. If there are things that need to be addressed or issues or concerns or ideas, then we would meet. The same with the college chair. I would have frequent contact with the chair as the need arises. But the reporting mechanism comes down to the president to the Board of Governors of Aurora College.
My question seems to continue to elude the department. I’ve asked to set aside the board governance, but when the board governance model, which we haven’t got to yet, is an issue to discuss, but when that message of the college… Maybe I’ll wrap it up this way, because it seems to cause a problem. When the message of the college comes forward, who trumps the message of the college at the department? Does the college itself report to a director somewhere within the system? Does the message of the college report to an associate deputy minister, an assistant deputy minister? Are they treated like maybe one of those, even the deputy minister? I’m not sure why this question is so challenging. Thank you.
Mr. Chair, I already spoke to the reporting mechanism, the college Board of Governors. We are talking about the Board of Governors for the college. The reporting mechanism is through the board chair, the board council, on to the president and on to my department. My senior staff would deal with that directly. She is also considered a manager in the position that she’s at. She would deal directly with my deputy or, in absence of the deputy, the assistant deputy minister. Those are the structures that we currently have. Again, reiterating that we are assessing those key areas. We are going through some interview processes with the college, the Board of Governors with my department, and then that information will be available on the board structure and reporting mechanism, the overall framework will be available to the Members and we will be presenting that to them within a few weeks. Mahsi.
Mr. Chair, I would say this: If Aurora College said they would like to build a new college, does someone within the Department of ECE have that authority to say no, or does someone have the authority to say yes, and who is that authority? Thank you.
Mr. Chair, if the decision came down from the Board of Governors through their chair, through their president, it will go to my department, deputy minister or ADM, assistant deputy minister, and will be brought to my attention, and in due course we have to go through the process to identify funds, capital.
We are talking about capital infrastructure here. If there is a plan in place, then by all means, my department will work very closely with the college to identify the needs. There is a process that we follow. It is a process of this Legislative Assembly as well. That’s what we follow. Mahsi.
If a message was sent from the Board of Governors to the chair, to the president to be carried to the Department of ECE, would ECE have the ability to say no if the college, through the Board of Governors, through the chair, through the president said that they wanted to build a stand-alone college? Would they have the authority to say no? Who would that particular person be to say no? Who would be saying no if the answer happened to be no? Thank you.
Mr. Hawkins, we are painting a scenario, but I will ask the Minister to reply. Minister Lafferty.
We are not filtering the process through the college to me as Minister responsible. If there is a request, I usually get a heads-up from the college, the board chair. We would have these communications. Our staff would work on a plan from there. We have constant contacts between my department, my role as the Minister responsible for the college, and the board chair.
The board chair was just reappointed, so we have a positive working relationship. We are going to continue that. Anything that’s addressed by the Board of Governors is addressed with me as well. I make the decision, so it’s not my department that makes the decision. I make the decision. I’m the one that stands up in the House. I’m the one responsible for the college. Mahsi.
Mr. Chair, we still haven’t had clarity on the role of capital planning. Capital planning falls under…(inaudible)... Who does the college, whether it’s the chair, the Board of Governors or the president, whoever is sent with cap in hand to say that the college itself would like to proceed on a particular mechanism, who do they actually report to at the department? Who has the say yea or nay on a particular project? If the college wants to proceed on a particular project, they must be held accountable at the department level to that question.
It still is not clear who they actually report to. I have heard various answers earlier that the president is a manager. I have heard various filterings of how the deputy minister, the associate deputy minister, but there is no clear line of who they bring that message to and the fact is it’s all a feeder system. Is this message filtered by someone within the department? Who has the authorization to say yes or no when the Board of Governors, through the chair, sends the message through the president to the department on a particular programming request? Who gets to say yes or no on those types of things? Thank you.
Mr. Chair, I’m not sure how clear I can be. I’m the one who is responsible. I’m the one who is responsible to put initiatives into the capital planning process based on the advice I’m getting from whether it be the college or my staff and we move forward from there. The reporting mechanism from the board chair, the president on to my deputy, as you know, we have all of these different divisions, as well, within our shop. Mr. Devitt here is also responsible for a piece of that. Even though there are two or three lines from the president to my deputy, it connects through all the departmental within our shop as well. At the end of the day, I make the final decision. Mahsi.
Thank you, Minister Lafferty. Mr. Hawkins, your time is up. I don’t have anyone on the sheet. Would you like to continue the questions?
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Now I’m hearing there are two or three lines they’re reporting to and I’m trying to get to the bottom of this, that if the college wants to put forward a particular initiative, who do they forward it to in the department? Does that person or persons… We need a clear role because somebody would be in charge of that.
The Minister has been in charge of this department for six years. I have been asking about an Aurora College plan for years. Is someone at the department stopping this? I’m not sure what the heck he’s doing over there. I want to be clear on the record. Who is in charge of the reporting of this particular, if there was a particular request, and who slows it down? I’m sorry to waste his time, but I’m sick and tired of this goddamn question.
Mr. Hawkins, I would suggest you use proper parliamentary language in your continued ask of questions. I further ask, Mr. Hawkins, that the Minister has responded to your series of questions. You are providing a lot of hypothetical scenarios of a following or chasing of questions that don’t exist. I would ask if you can keep those two items in mind with your question to follow. Thank you.
Mr. Chair, I appreciate your guidance, but this is not hypothetical, because we need to know the process as to what the request would be. It is not hypothetical and the Minister is unable to answer this. If the college was to carry out requests, how can I get to a capital request program in question if we don’t know where the question is going to in the department? That’s part of the question that seems to continually be avoided. I am hearing he is in charge. He gets the say yes or no, then he says the deputy minister, then he says the assistant deputy minister. We need to find out where that line goes to, because when I ask a question about the planning process for the department of Aurora College, who is making these types of decisions? I illustrate an example to help us understand why I keep trying to ask this question. There is nothing happening on this. We need to know how this works.
Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Before we ask the Minister to respond to that question, I would ask that you withdraw your earlier comment, please. Thank you.
Sure, for the sake of moving forward, I will withdraw that.
Mr. Chair, this decision process falls under me through various venues from the board chair, the president, my deputy, associates, and those individuals are involved with the capital planning process. At the end of the day, it goes back to me as advice coming from all angles. The decision is made by me as Minister responsible for the college. The capital infrastructure, there is a process in play. That same process we follow on a constant basis every year. We do follow that and we’re talking about a 60, 80, 90 million dollar building and we have to think creatively how we can pursue that. As you know, through our budget planning process, we’re talking about capital, which is not before us, but that’s the planning stage we’re at right now, we’re working with the college, we’re working with various potential investors as well.
So again, at the end of the day, it falls under me, the decision is made by me and maybe I’ll just get my deputy to elaborate a bit. I’m not sure how different she can approach it, but she can explain the reporting mechanism to the president. Mahsi.
Thank you, Minister Lafferty. Ms. Eggenhofer.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I think the department’s interfacing with the college happens on many levels. It depends on the subject at hand. For example, when the college wants to put on programs, there’s a number of people within the department that would assist the college in determining programming that we would share research and analysis, and that happens at various levels. When it comes to capital projects, the department would offer advice on the process, on the steps that ought to be taken, but the department at an administrative level would not in any way impede access of the board, or the college board to the Minister to provide unfettered advice and make a pitch for a capital project. The Minister would ask our advice, which we would offer, but we wouldn’t be an impediment in providing the access to the Minister.
Thank you, Ms. Eggenhofer. Mr. Hawkins.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That was very helpful. If the college was to come forward in this particular budget cycle under capital planning, how much money would be allocated to that particular initiative if they wanted to plan for a college, an independent college in Yellowknife? Thank you.
Mr. Hawkins, that’s a capital planning question. Would you like to rephrase your question, please.
Mr. Chairman, I’m not talking about capital, I’m talking about the plan. So if the college wanted to come forward with this type of initiative that it all starts with the booklet, the study, the review, the programming and that’s the capital planning. It says right here in the third paragraph, business and capital planning for the department, and that’s what I keep referring to. I’m not sure why this seems to keep… No one is talking about a $40 million to $50 million, even $60 million infrastructure when we can’t even talk about the plan. Thank you.
Thank you for clarifying, Mr. Hawkins. Minister Lafferty.
