Agreed.
Thank you. Page 13-19, information item, environment, active positions. Any questions?
Agreed.
Seeing none, 13-21, activity summary, forest management, operations expenditure summary, $32.684 million. Does committee agree?
Agreed.
Thank you. Page 13-22, activity summary, forest management, grants and contributions, $210,000. Does committee agree?
Agreed.
Thank you. Page 13-23, information item, forest management, active positions. Any questions?
Agreed.
Seeing none, page 13-25, activity summary, wildlife, operations expenditure summary, $16.118 million. Ms. Bisaro.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. As I have for the last several years I need to ask the Minister when there can be any expectation, if any at all, that caribou outfitters will get some tags so that they can revive their business, maybe revive their business, bring it out of hibernation or mothballs? Is there any hope that in the ’14-15 winter that they will be able to get tags for caribou? Thank you.
Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. Minister Miltenberger.
No, Mr. Chair. The herd numbers are such that we think it has hopefully stabilized at 35,000 or so. We are still keeping the hunting restrictions in place for the Bathurst herd, 150 tags for the Yellowknives, 150 tags for the Tlicho and we have agreed to issue and said the herd can sustain the issue of one resident tag to be harvested out of the Beverly-Ahiak herd and we looked at the Bluenose-East and their numbers have declined significantly from what we thought was well over 100,000 to 110,000 down to 60-some thousand. So we are at voluntary harvest on that herd as well.
So there is no light at the end of the tunnel when it comes to commercial harvest in this part of the country. Thank you.
Thanks. Great news – being very sarcastic. Okay, so does the Minister have any suggestions for these businesses that are scraping by at the moment trying to hang on? I mean, should they just fold up their business and totally go on to something else, or is there some hope in the next two, three, four years that maybe they will get some caribou tags? Thank you.
Thank you. I’m somewhat restricted in my ability to talk extensively about the outfitters; we are currently involved in litigation with a number of them. We are working our way through that process, but in terms of the future for the recovery of the herd, it depends on what the survey is going to tell us and we’ll have the numbers probably late 2015 or 2016. If the trends continue, I would suggest that the outlook for any type of commercial harvest in the Bathurst herd is going to be very bleak, that wherever there’s road access to herds the numbers have declined precipitously and the herds are in distress. So in this area if we’re going to focus on rebuilding the herd, keeping the hunting restrictions in place to try to give the herd all the help it needs, but the future is bleak when it comes to commercial outfitting in this part of the country. Thank you.
Thanks to the Minister. I appreciate the clarification and the explanation. My last question goes to reporting and I don’t believe we have mandatory reporting for every individual who hunts caribou in whatever herd. So in order for us to maintain an accurate read on the number of animals and in order for us in the future to get an accurate read on the number of animals and to do decent projections, will the Minister consider requiring reporting from everybody who hunts caribou? Thank you.
Thank you. As we work on the regulations in the next number of months, that is one of the key topics of discussion among the working group members and there is recognition that you can’t manage what you can’t count. I’m fully expecting that by the time the process is concluded with input from the working group and the SWAAG group that we will have achieved a regulatory agreement as it pertains to mandatory reporting. Thank you.
Thanks to the Minister. That’s good to hear and I look forward to positive results. Thanks.
Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. Continuing on with wildlife, I have Mr. Bromley.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I just want to talk about caribou briefly. I know there’s a lot of concern from the Minister and certainly from biologists about the loss of cows, particularly from depleted herds through hunting. Again, as the Minister knows, we’ve had years and years of restrictions for non-Aboriginal hunters to bulls only. I suppose hundreds or thousands of animals were taken and I’m not aware of any charges for shooting cows. Yet the department is still letting cows be taken even from dangerously reduced populations like the Bathurst herd. Biologists will tell you that cows are the most important component of caribou herds in terms of their recovery. They’re the ones that bear the calves and raise the calves and any pressure on them whatsoever is a significant reduction in the recovery capacity of the herd. Will the Minister commit to stopping harvest of cows and allow these herds to recover? Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Bromley. For that response I’ll go to Mr. Campbell.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. In regards to the cow harvest, over the past number of years with some of the recommendations that have been in place, we have seen a change in the numbers, the percentages of cows harvested compared to bulls harvested. We’re all aware that the majority of the recommendations warn hunters to focus on an 80 percent bull harvest and through working with our co-management partners and our communities we’ve made ground in that area. We’re now seeing a harvest where it was predominantly a cow harvest in the winter where we’re seeing anywhere from 60 to 65 percent as the harvest of cows, but recognizing there’s still a fair amount of work to be done in that area. But that’s a process we have to work through with our co-management institutions. Again, going forward here, it’s not an easy accomplishment knowing over the centuries and that the reliance on caribou by the Aboriginal people and the harvesting of the different, whether it’s bulls in the fall or the focus on cows in the winter is not an easy thing to change overnight, but we are making progress and we continue to want to work with, and are working with, our co-management partners in the communities to focus more on a bull harvest for a majority of the year.
We’ve also, with our existing recommendations, over the last half a dozen years a good news story is that the majority of these herds have stabilized and, of course, if we want a speedier recovery, we have to continue to make progress of reduction in cow harvests.
Thank you, Mr. Campbell. Mr. Bromley.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you to the deputy minister there. That is certainly substantial progress going from predominantly cows to less than 65 percent or less than 35 percent, I suppose that would be cows, 40 or 35 percent. That is certainly progress and I would certainly support the department in working on further progress on that front. I know it’s difficult. I mean, there are some cultural considerations and practices here, so it’s a tough situation, but I think the deputy minister is right. Without backing off on a cow harvest, the potential for recovery will be much reduced. I appreciate those efforts.
The other thing I wanted to bring up is the caribou herds of the east. I believe it’s currently going under the designation of Beverly-Ahiak, and has, I think, recently been approved for a harvest of one by those without Aboriginal treaty rights. While that’s progress, it’s almost ludicrous to come up with one tag at a distant and remote site like that. So far I’ve only found two hunters that are going to have the means to get over there, so again, it’s practically, in a practical sense, shutting out those without Aboriginal treaty rights again, despite there being a harvestable surplus. Why did the Minister restrict this harvest opportunity – let’s call it an opportunity even though it clearly isn’t for 99 percent of our hunters – to one animal?
Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Minister Miltenberger.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I prefer to look at it as we went from no harvest to the start of a resident harvest to one animal based on the best advice that I got from the experts, the folks in the field. Initially, we had hoped and thought that we’d be able to sustain a similar harvest with the Bluenose-East, but the numbers came back not being able to sustain that, so we went with, at least to start with, the one animal. I’ll ask the deputy if he wants to add anything further about the thought behind this.
Thank you, Minister Miltenberger. Deputy Minister Campbell.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Also part of the process for opening up a restricted harvest of one animal, the consultation process we undertook with the communities that use the herds to the east and also with the board, the Beverly and Qamanirjuaq Board, has also recently made a decision that they would also give recommendations on the Ahiak herd as well. We did the consultation and that process allowed us to land on one animal at this point and to closely monitor, to work with the communities and monitor, not just harvest but monitor the state of the herd, and going forward, if we see further recovery, we want to, of course, continue to work with them and the residents and explore options, if it’s determined that it’s not going to impact the sustainability of the herd, that we would look at that. But that was the process that came out of not just the experts in ENR. It wasn’t a unified or a decision just from our department. It was a consultation process, as well, and that was what we heard. Even opening up was a tough call, to open up beyond the Aboriginal subsistence harvest. We have some work going forward, again, based on some of the process that I identified.
Thank you, Mr. Campbell. Mr. Bromley.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Hunters have a saying that tracks make for thin soup, and that is exactly what the Minister has provided to the hunters. Pretty thin soup here. I have to say it’s interesting that this government is willing to bend over backwards to help one group of people and do nothing but create barriers for another group. Just a comment there.
I’d like to talk about the Yellowknives Dene First Nations work with the department. They’ve been trying to work cooperatively with the department and had an agreement with the department for three years running, and all of a sudden the department has gone unilaterally off on their own. I know there are dollars in the budget here to work with these people. Why has the Minister decided to go off unilaterally issuing tags for Yellowknives Dene First Nations people but to people who are not actually members of this First Nation and without their agreement?
Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Minister Miltenberger.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We take our responsibility very, very seriously when it comes to all issues related to environment and natural resources, but with wildlife in particular, and we work very hard to accommodate all Northerners. I think we’re demonstrating that, even though not to the Member’s satisfaction. I point out that we have also, for the first time in 30-some years, reopened the harvest for bison, a modest harvest for bison in the South Slave, which hasn’t been done since the mid-‘80s.
In regard to working with the Yellowknives, we have spent extensive time and effort, right from the deputy minister on down, with repeated meetings with the Yellowknives, and I’ll ask the deputy minister to lay out for committee the steps he has taken and the efforts we’ve made both to come to an accommodation but also recognize that there’s a lot of pressure from among the Yellowknives to go and take advantage of the tags and put the 150 tags to use. I’ll ask, Mr. Chairman, with your indulgence, to let the deputy fill in the detail.
Thank you, Minister Miltenberger. Mr. Campbell.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Over the last number of months we’ve been meeting on a regular basis with the Yellowknives Dene, with their leadership, with their elders’ senate, and there are fundamental, I guess, issues here that are not easy to address. We continue to want to meet with them to resolve this issue. We’re hoping that the latest survey of the Bathurst herd would give more positive numbers; however, the herd is still at 32,000 to 35,000 animals. The percentage of cows has not improved; a slight increase in the bulls; however, we all want this herd to recover as quickly as we can. We want to work with them to develop short-term management actions. We want to work with them to develop long-term management actions. We want to work with them for them to come to the table to develop things such as range management plans for the Bathurst herd, also for the long-term vision of the herd with the overall comprehensive management plan. We need them at the table for that. We continue to stress that.
As far as tags being distributed to others, the non-Yellowknives Dene, that’s not the case. The 150 tags available for the Bathurst herd are for the Yellowknives Dene First Nation. The other 150 for the Bathurst is through the Tlicho. Again, we want to renew an agreement with them so that we work together to continue to employ monitors’ check stations as well to work alongside our officers. We also want to ensure, as the Member had identified previously, that there’s a mechanism that we accurately record the harvest and know what exactly is being harvested. We are open today and going forward to continue to try to resolve this issue with the Yellowknives Dene in relation to the Bathurst herd here and harvest. It’s actually beyond that. Other herds are adjacent to the Bathurst. We continue to want to work with them to figure out means to access those herds so that they have caribou meat in their freezers for the majority of the year. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Campbell. Continuing on with page 13-25 on wildlife, I have Mr. Blake.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. There’s a lot of good discussion here on management with the wildlife. I just wanted to share a few things. I fully know what the department is working with. I had some experience with the Porcupine Caribou Management Board a few years back. I think that we need to do the same sort of procedure as what the Porcupine Caribou Management Board has done, was develop an actual plan for these herds in our area here. I know we have great success working with… There is a number of parties that work for that management plan, including the Inuvialuit Game Council, the Gwich’in Tribal Council, Vuntut Gwitchin Government, Tron’dek Hwech’in, Nacho Nyuk Dun Mayo Government of the Yukon, the territorial government and also the Government of Canada. That shows that people can actually work together for the health of the herd. I think that is what we need to do here. They developed a scale that, if the herd is one area, there’s action that needs to be done. Whether people like it or not, for the health of the herd, you have to do it. If we even did that a couple of years back, we thought we were in the red zone, which is 25,000 to 45,000 caribou so we did a bulls only campaign. We did take a while to get buy-in, but it’s just a matter of educating the people and the public as to what needs to be done to manage that resource. I know we are just in the early stages here. It turned out that, even with our actions, because we didn’t get a good population count, the herd was actually doing very well. It was in the neighbourhood of 134,000 caribou. That just goes to show that…
I think we are at that critical point here. Everybody needs to work together to make sure that these herds are available to our future generations. I fully support what the department is doing. I think that we need to implement this sort of plan for the herds in this region. I hope that they can work with the people from PCMB to try to develop the same sort of plan for these herds here that sets down guidelines we need to follow. We will do that.
One thing I wanted to mention, too, it was stated that no one has harvest data. I just wanted to correct that statement, because the Gwich’in actually do a harvest study three times a year. Hunters do mark down what they harvest. I believe the same goes for the Inuvialuit Game Council as well. I just wanted to correct that. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Blake. Minister Miltenberger.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the Member’s comments. I do fully concur that the model developed by the Porcupine Caribou Management Board is one that is worthy of emulation that the thresholds that they’ve agreed to have taken the politics out of the management of a very critical herd. It’s a lesson that we need to learn down here and a goal we need to achieve here are those types of thresholds. The area where the Porcupine is, of course, this is a very politically complex area. The biggest noticeable difference is where there are unsettled claims and settled claims. With the Wek’eezhii Board it is much more clear-cut with the Tlicho in the Chief Drygeese area, unsettled claims. The Metis are here as well. It’s much more politically sensitive.
I appreciate the Member’s comments. We are trying to take the lessons learned from the Porcupine Caribou Management Board.
Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Committee, we are on 13-25, activity summary, wildlife, operations expenditure summary, $16.118 million. Does committee agree?
Agreed.
Thank you, committee. Page 13-26, activity summary, wildlife, grants and contributions, $969,000. Agreed?
Agreed.
Thank you. 13-27, information item, wildlife, active positions. Any questions?
Agreed.
Seeing none, 13-29, activity summary, water resources, operations expenditure summary, $10.737 million. Agreed?
Agreed.
Thank you, committee. Page 13-30, activity summary, water resources, grants and contributions, $1.090 million. Does committee agree?
Agreed.
Thank you. Page 13-31, information item, water resources, active positions. Any questions?
Agreed.
