Page 9-19, Justice, activity summary, community justice and policing, active positions. Any questions?
Agreed.
Page 9-21, Justice, activity summary, policing services. Mr. Bromley.
I want to use this opportunity to ask for an update from the Minister on, I guess, are we one year yet into our new 20-year contract with the RCMP? I know we’ve had a lot of discussions about that, leading up to it. It got signed and I, of course, didn’t hear about it again, but what are we finding after a year of working under this new agreement?
Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Minister Abernethy.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Yes, we are one year into this. One thing we’ve learned is it’s expensive, and it will continue to be expensive. We pay 70 percent of all costs associated with the RCMP, and as a result of the contract, we’re also paying for the infrastructure as well. The costs have gone up.
The benefits of the contract are, obviously, the different types of relationships that we have with the RCMP. We’re still in our first year there, so there are still some growing pains trying to figure out what exactly that means, but we are in a different position as far as providing some administrative direction and setting some priorities. I know the department, senior management and I, as well, meet and talk with the RCMP on a regular basis, and we talk about northern priorities. We’ve been really pushing, and I’d say thank goodness that the commanding officer, I think, has been pushing as well, for community policing plans, and having a real relationship with the communities. The RCMP and the commanding officer, they’ve been going into most of the communities on a regular basis. Community policing plan in all 33 communities, which I think is fantastic. We’ve never had that before to that degree. The RCMP are providing regular reports to community leadership on reported crimes, crime rates, activities that are happening in their communities, so the relationships, I think, are becoming quite positive out there.
There is always going to be money issues and trying to figure out where the money’s flowing, and trying to get the priorities where we need them to be, but we’re working on it, and I think as we move forward it will become stronger and we’ll see more benefits in that area.
We do know, based on conversations that we’ve had with our partners, that both Nunavut and Yukon are very interested in our policing plans, our community policing plans and that type of approach. Some of the things that are happening here are starting to get attention in other areas.
Thanks to the Minister for that update. You mentioned the 70 percent. That was true before. The infrastructure, I think there were some changes there. Would that largely explain the more expensive comment?
It added to the cost significantly, but also since that time there’s been a collective bargaining increase for the RCMP, and there are additional costs. We are also now on the hook for 70 percent of the maintenance and 70 percent of the operation of these buildings, where that wasn’t quite the way it was before, so that was an area of increase in the previous budget and it’s managed to carry through.
I believe I understood from the Minister’s remarks that we have more opportunities for, say, on how things go and where priorities are, although we still have difficulties on where the money gets put, or issues. So after one year, is this a good deal?
We work with them to set our yearly priorities and we meet with them on a regular basis to discuss things as they come forward at us. It’s more expensive but it is a 20-year agreement, and it also includes a 20-year capital allocation as well, which is spread out over the period of time rather than having one billed at one time and having a giant cheque one year and prices, it’s spread over a 20-year plan. It is more expensive. We know that. We have a relationship where we could provide more direction as far as priorities. We don’t tell them how to police. They police based on their standards, protocols, practices and all those types of things, but we have a pretty good relationship right now. If you ask me if it’s a good deal, it’s a lot of money and, obviously, we’d like it cheaper. I think everybody would, but that was the national deal that we were a part of.
Thank you, Minister Abernethy. Next on the list is Mr. Dolynny.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Welcome to the Minister and the Justice team here tonight. I’ve got a number of questions on this page relating to constables. I’ll start my questions off with the awareness and the support of recruiting for community constables.
Where are we at with the department? Are there special initiatives that are ongoing and how successful have we been in that area?
Thank you, Mr. Dolynny. Minister Abernethy.
Thank you, Madam Chair. There are a number of different programs currently provided by the RCMP. There’s the Aboriginal Community Constable Program. In the Northwest Territories we have one person who has successfully completed that program. There’s an intake, I believe it just ended actually, for two more positions here in the Northwest Territories. We had a large number of candidates, which I think is fantastic. I’ve made statements in the House about that program, and I’ve encouraged Members to work with their communities to identify people. I know that we’ve got lots of candidates and we’ve got people, I believe, that have been identified for those two positions. Training starts in June for those two positions.
The RCMP also run a youth cadet-type program, and I actually forget the title of the program right now, but it’s for young people who are interested in pursuing RCMP as a career. There are limited seats in that, and in the Northwest Territories the RCMP do a pretty good job of advertising that program. I made a statement here in the House and I encouraged Members to submit names. We had one person go through that program here in the Northwest Territories last year, a young individual from Inuvik. We’ve heard that it was quite successful. The person really appreciated their experience and the opportunities, and we’re hoping that we’ll see that person in the RCMP someday. Who knows, but that’s certainly a hope.
The RCMP continues to recruit. They continue to look for members. We look for any opportunity we can to enhance Northerners in policing.
Madam Chair, I appreciate the Minister going into detail on that here. The Minister, myself, and members of Justice were at the policing symposium, I believe in 2012. I appreciate the Minister having members accompany him with opportunities like that. One of the things that was discovered during the presentations was the State of Alaska has very similar situations that we have, in terms of communities that do not have state troopers, whereas we also have a lot of communities that do not have RCMP presence. They use a body called a village public safety officer, or VPSO.
I know, in discussing this with the Minister then and the deputy minister at the symposium, the possibilities of this being somewhat of an opportunity for the Northwest Territories to look at a hybrid version of what is truly a successful program in Alaska. Can the Minister comment on it? Has he made any strides as to investigate this as a potential? If he can offer that to the committee. Thank you.
Madam Chair, the department has followed up on the program. There are some challenges. Just as a note, it is very similar to the Aboriginal Community Constable Program. There are some differences here in the Northwest Territories. We don’t have a policing act, so having stand-alone police-type professionals in a community that weren’t under the employment or under the designation of the RCMP would be complicated because of the lack of a policing act. The program had some positive aspects, but there would also be some challenges given our radically different models of policing in Canada compared to the United States.
We are right now working with Aurora College and some Aboriginal governments and some other groups on looking at a program that we might be able to deliver through Aurora College that would give people some, not policing skills, but some justice training that they might be able to parlay into different areas, be it courts, be it corrections, or if they’re interested in going in the RCMP it would give them some skills and some knowledge that would help them in their application process. We’re looking at that as an option to help train people.
For now, the one that we know works is the Aboriginal Community Policing Program. We continue to encourage the RCMP federally to consider creating more seats there for us. We have two right now, but we will continue to push because our success on that program is quite impressive.
Madam Chair, my next question has to do with trends. Can the Minister elaborate, with his contacts with RCMP, are we seeing any trends in the Northwest Territories that residents should be alarmed? I’m thinking of things like potentially weapons offences, maybe bootlegging, these types of things. Are we seeing any large trends with RCMP involvement in our communities?
Family violence continues to be an issue in the Northwest Territories. It’s recognized by the RCMP, it’s recognized by departments, it’s recognized by the health care system, and I think it’s recognized, clearly, by Members of this House. But it continues to be a challenge and is something that needs additional work. Alcohol abuse, I’ve talked to RCMP detachment commanders that talk to the commanding officer. They all say, not all, but a significant amount of crime that is happening in the small communities is alcohol related.
Madam Chair, I have no further questions.
Thank you, Mr. Dolynny. Next on my list is Mr. Blake.
Madam Chair, I just have a couple of short questions. I would just like to congratulate the department on putting in an additional RCMP member in Tulita. When will the community of Tsiigehtchic actually see at least one member in the community? Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Blake. Minister Abernethy.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Currently there is, I believe it was back in 2009ish, an extra position was actually created in Fort McPherson to cover Tsiigehtchic. That position is intended to go into Tsiigehtchic on a regular basis. I understand that we had a community policing plan in place with that community and it hasn’t worked out exactly as the community and the RCMP have planned. I have talked to the commanding officer. The commanding officer is going to Tsiigehtchic on April 9th to meet with the community leadership to discuss the community policing plan that was in place and try to find some ways to get the coverage that the community members are expecting based on the fact that we have that position in Fort McPherson to provide services to Tsiigehtchic.
As far as a stand-alone detachment and a stand-alone officer in that community, we can’t have one-member detachments in communities. There are protocols in place that actually limit that from happening. But we would like to work on some creative solutions to ensure that we have somebody in there as often as we can, not just to arrest people but to provide community education, youth education, work with community members on different types of programming. We would like to work with them to make that happen.
Madam Chair, our goal for the 17th Assembly is to actually have safer communities. We are just not seeing that happen in Tsiigehtchic. The people there don’t feel safe. A good example is if the community experiences a shutdown at the school, which I’m glad that we haven’t yet, but I’m just thinking of their response time that those students would face having to wait anywhere up to two hours for a response from Fort McPherson. Will the Minister look at having a community constable in the community of Tsiigehtchic? Thank you, Madam Chair.
Madam Chair, the Aboriginal community constable like the one we have in Hay River, they are still RCMP members with a particular focus. We would have the same difficulty putting an Aboriginal community constable in that community without backup. There are requirements to have legal backup in case of a complicated situation or when dangerous situations arise.
We are open to creative solutions for the community. I think the meeting that is going to happen on April 9th can be productive. We and the RCMP are very interested in working with the community to find some real solutions. We as a government are focused on safer communities, which is why using programs that we have in place like the Community Justice Committee, Youth Justice Committees, some of the things like Not Us! Campaign, we can make, with community direction, positive results in communities.
The reports out of Tsiigehtchic tend to be quite low. If they are going up, we should have that discussion, but over time, the amount of calls compared to some other places is pretty low. I recognize what the Member is saying. Work is needed. We are happy to work together to find some solutions.
Thank you, Mr. Abernethy. Mr. Yakeleya, did you have a question on this page?
Madam Chair, 6-20?
Yes, we are on page 6-21, Mr. Yakeleya.
Madam Chair, the crime stats with the alcohol in the Sahtu in the last year, I want to ask the Minister. I appreciate that Tulita is going to get an extra RCMP and they are going to get a victims crime service worker. I’ve talked to some of the RCMP members. They are pretty well worked. They certainly provide, from eye-witness accounts and speaking to them, there is a lot of business. It is pretty heavy. They are doing a good job with the resources they have. I want to ask the Minister, in his analysis, research, has the Minister seen an increase with the crimes associated with alcohol abuse or alcohol. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Minister Abernethy.
Thank you, Madam Chair. In the Sahtu, from 2011 to 2012 there was a noticeable increase in activity in the Sahtu. I don’t have the statistics in saying how many of them were alcohol related, but it’s interesting that the increase comes at a time of two things happening in the Sahtu. One, the increased activity, which can be significant, and the other being the changes in the rules around the Norman Wells liquor store. Those two things both happened roughly at the same time, so it’s hard to truly quantify what the increased rate in crime is. We feel that much of it is probably related to the activity and the money that’s available in the communities, which is one of the reasons that we have decided to put an additional officer in Tulita.
We need to work with communities. We’ve got community policing plans, which we think are fantastic, but people have to take some personal responsibility and work with the RCMP and help us identify when people are bringing alcohol or other substances into the communities. People have to be willing to talk to the RCMP so that they know when it’s coming in so that they can intercept. We have been having some pretty good luck this year. I’ve shared with the Member a significant amount of photos and reports on the amount of booze that’s been confiscated and kept off the streets in the Sahtu region and I think some of that is as a result of community people taking some responsibility and involving themselves in the solution, and we need to see more of that.
I also have some information, as I indicated, that the increase of liquor sales from the Minister of Finance, or the liquor revenue commission report shows an increase of liquor sales in the Sahtu. Combine that with the activity that’s happening in the Sahtu, the amount of people coming in and the lifting of the liquor store rations are significant contributing factors to the crime associated with alcohol.
Any newspaper in the Northwest Territories, you look at it and you always say, the amount of crimes with liquor is high, 85 percent or higher, or drugs. So that tells me something. So I’m really happy the Minister is responding with extra RCMP. I can work on the other stuff later on, but I wanted to tell the Minister I’m happy. In talking to the Members, it’s good to have additional support. Even in Tulita it would be nice to have a steno working in the office. We’re talking to the members and they’re busy. They’ve got to answer the phone and they’ve got to be nice after 13- or 14-hour shifts and then they’ve got to write up their reports. So we need some administrative support for them because it’s going to get incredibly busy and the Minister knows. He’s travelled with me in the Sahtu and we certainly appreciate that, what he heard and how he communicated with the people, and this is only the beginning.
So I want to leave it at that, and I look forward to continuing to work with the Minister on different types of options that we can have for Colville Lake. It’s unacceptable in this day and age to have 11 or 12 communities without RCMP members. So I look forward to the federal government to come up with some funding because our communities do not have RCMP members, and I will continue with the Minister to work on these types of initiatives. Safety first, safety first, safety first. I think I can get that through to the government and we could make a significant amount of progress if we were to establish an RCMP in our communities that do not have an RCMP. So I’ll save the rest for my Member’s statement and I’ll continue consistently to put up my little sign and say more RCMP in the communities without RCMP. We should not be any different. We need equalization.
That’s what I’m going to say and I want to thank the Minister for taking his time out and travelling with me in the Sahtu. We appreciate that. We appreciate the government coming along with Minister Ramsay. Other Ministers have come, and I’m hoping the other ones are planning to come. People want to see you in the region. They want to see our Premier, they want to see other people in our region. That’s what it’s all about in this government.
So I’ll save the rest for my Member’s statement, Madam Chair. Thank you very much.
Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Did you wish to comment, Minister?
Thank you, Madam Chair. Noted, and we look forward to working with the Member, with committee, with communities and with the RCMP to find solutions to these issues as we move forward.
Thank you, Minister Abernethy. Committee, we’re on page 9-21, Justice, activity summary, policing services, operations expenditure summary, $40.856 million.
Agreed.
Page 9-23, Justice, activity summary, legal aid services, operations expenditure summary, $6.141 million.
Agreed.
Thank you, committee. Page 9-24, Justice, information item, legal aid services, active positions. Questions?
Agreed.
Page 9-27, Justice, activity summary, court services, operations expenditure summary, Mr. Bromley.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to follow-up with the Minister a little bit on the wellness court, the mental health court. Obviously, the Minister remembers passing a motion in the House for a mental health court in the 16th Assembly and we were led, by the Minister of Justice at that time, to understand work was underway. Now again we’ve passed a similar motion in the House and work is underway again here. My understanding is that a feasibility study will be completed this 31st, March. I’d like to know is this done in concert with Health and Social Services and will it provide direction should the conclusion be approved to put in place a court, will it provide direction on what’s required to put such a court in place? Mahsi.
Thanks, Mr. Bromley. Minister Abernethy.
Thank you, Madam Chair. The feasibility study is scheduled to be completed by March 31st. I’ve had discussions about the early draft that’s out there that’s within the department being worked on by the committee, which includes Health and Social Services, Justice and Education, Culture and Employment are also participating. I’m really close to taking that to Cabinet. Once it’s gone through Cabinet we’ll be bringing it to committee for discussion and about how we move forward, and the exact things the Member is talking about is the discussion we’re going to have to have once we’ve got all the information in front of people and how we’re going to move forward, which model we’re going to choose and how we’re going to do that over the ‘14-15 business planning so that we have something ready for the next time we’re sitting here.
Thank you. Obviously, the Minister has a different time frame in mind than I do, but I’m not going to go there. Has this work been done internally or is it through contract work, the feasibility study? Thank you.
It’s been done with the committee internally. It’s several different departments led by the Department of Justice. We have had an opportunity to look at models in different jurisdictions, learn about those models, get as much information as we can, look at what capacity may exist in the Northwest Territories, where we might have some complications, where we will need to do additional work to make this a reality in-house.
Thank you and that’s great. I like to hear that. So what jurisdictions have found these courts to be not very good and tossed them out? Thank you.
None that I am aware of. They’ve had challenges. They’ve all experienced some degree of growing pains as they’re making these things become a reality and we’re trying to learn what some of those challenges were for them so that we don’t have to live through the same types of pains should we choose to accept the model. I will point out that I would say there’s no two models that are the same out there and we, as a territory, I think we say it over and over again, we’re unique in many ways. So we want to make sure that the model that is applied here works for here. So we want to learn from the challenges that others have experienced.
That sounds like a wise course, they learned by doing it, and that’s what I want to see. So if the Minister had the resources, would he get going earlier? Sorry, I withdraw that, hypothetical. I’ll leave it at that, Madam Chair. Thank you.
We’re doing the work; we will come to committee. With committee, we will talk about how to move forward. We will get something done in the Government of the Northwest Territories.
