Thank you, Mr. Chair. With me, immediately to my right is Paul Guy, the deputy minister. On my left is Steve Lewis, the director of corporate services; and on our far right is Laurie Gault, the director of the Technology Service Centre.
Thank you. I’d like to welcome the witnesses to the House again. I appreciate you coming down today. With that, I will open up the floor to general comments on the Department of Public Works and Services. Mr. Yakeleya.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Welcome to this plan for the budget there. Minister and your staff, certainly, a couple points I want to make this afternoon and then we can go through the business plans in detail.
I do want to say that the challenges that this department has had to do with the diesel price increases that they seem to be dealing with. In the document it said that since 2007-08 that the diesel prices have increased by 57 percent. I look forward to the types of initiatives you will have to deal with this issue of the high cost of energy in our communities by implementing or initiating alternative energy heating sources.
You have…(inaudible)…of the wood pellets, biomass and the different types of energy initiatives that are going in various communities. In my community you don’t see very much of those initiatives or any type of hydro or especially wood pellets or biomass. You see them mostly in southern parts of the Northwest Territories and little projects going, I should say huge projects going on here and there. For my region we are not very successful in attracting the attention from the government to put in an alternative heating source so we have to revert to the good old diesel and natural gas. Even natural gas isn’t even safe to say anymore. Our reliability comes from the high cost of diesel and we all want to make some changes. However, we need the support of government and we’re hoping that this government here will be warming up to an invitation by the Sahtu and say we could put in an alternative source of heating. We have done some small projects such as the solar panel heating in our swimming pools. However, there needs to be a little more capital infrastructure commitment to putting some other projects that could save the communities a lot of money. In the small communities, to heat our community arenas it costs a lot of money for the communities to run it.
I think you pretty well have a sense of where I’m going with this so I’m going to be asking some questions. Through the business plans we also looked at the water upgrades in our communities. We’ve done some pilot projects making sure the water upgrades are safe and that training is there. The cost of taking over those plants and the infrastructure is quite expensive. I noted from my visits in my communities that even though we do have a New Deal and the funding, that the maintenance, the amount of times you have to change the filters costs a lot and we just don’t have the money there. So the communities are somewhat reluctant to take over the operations.
I do want to say I support your officials and your staff to look at how we get effective video conferencing in our health centres, especially in our health centres. The Mackenzie Valley Fibre Optic Link is a very good initiative and you have my 100 percent support for that. I would like to see that because I know that will cut down for the efficiency. We could have that hooked up into our schools and especially in our health centres. So, Minister, you’ve got my support on that initiative, no questions asked. So I want to support you on that initiative.
Two other points I have, Mr. Chair, and I’ll close off. The Apprenticeship Program has been very successful. The Settlement Maintainers Program has been good for the small communities because it worked in the past and we did have those programs and somehow we got away from that. The last government made it a priority to get those programs back into our communities. There are many benefits to have those programs there. So the Apprenticeship Program is good and the Settlement Maintainers Program is pretty unique because our own people are doing things that they didn’t at one time think they could do. Now they’ve got the training and we’re empowering them and we’re setting up good role models saying that this person can do it, that’s my uncle or that’s my auntie. So we’re setting up a path of other younger students in our communities could maybe one day be one of those people. This government is contributing to the growth of our communities through their capacity.
My last point I want to ask the Minister is to take a real serious look at the energy projects in our communities. We need the wood pellet system. We have some facilities going up in the Sahtu that maybe a huge wood pellet boiler can go in there to cut costs. I don’t know too much of the detailed stuff; however, I think that some of the costs we have were woodstoves. We had woodstoves in some of our places. Maybe I’m not speaking to the right department, but for your department having wood pellets in the school or the health centre, it makes a huge difference, unless Imperial Oil or some oil company decides to build a refinery in one of our communities, then our fuel would be cheaper, but that doesn’t seem to be the case. So I look forward to the Minister looking at the various alternative heating supply systems in our region.
It costs us quite a bit of dollars and it costs this government a lot of dollars to continue using the diesel. If we do not get that type of support, then I’m all for diesel and natural gas, but that’s what keeps my people warm. If we have to pay the price, then we pay the price. So unless this government makes a change in the Sahtu with the hydro, with wood pellet, biomass or other geothermal, start looking at that type of heating, alternative energies in our communities and putting some of that infrastructure in our community, then I’m for it. I have a list of the projects in one community and it’s amazing how much money you pour into one community and that community has a low cost of living.
So I look forward to this Minister’s leadership in seeing what can be done in the three years on the planning or on the budget, everything, knowing everything. If he can deliver on a couple, I would be very happy and I think the people would appreciate it.
I know I said a lot in 10 minutes. So I want to leave it at that and thank the Minister and his staff coming through the Sahtu on a tour. We really appreciate that. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Before we allow the Minister the opportunity to respond, it was agreed upon earlier today that we’d do an aggregate of the general comments and then I’ll ask the Minister the opportunity to reply. If there are specific questions, they can make reference to the particular Member.
With that, I’ll open up again to general comments from any of the Members. Mr. Bromley.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. There’s a big overlap between my colleague from the Sahtu and myself. So I’ll try not to go into too much detail here until we get to detail.
I guess in general terms I appreciated the Minister’s opening remarks and I thought he gave a good update on the Capital Asset Retrofit Fund, and the benefits of work done on that, and the future outlook for that program and the environmental benefits in terms of reduction and greenhouse gas emissions. Again, I see a very responsible department towing the line fiscally and I appreciate the effort there. I know that it takes a lot of effort. So kudos for that and I’m not used to seeing the Technology Service Centre funding requests so stable. So that must be a huge effort there and I appreciate that.
This department plays a big role in our communities, a really big role that is not necessarily written into their mandate. I just want to give that some profile, express some appreciation to the employees who actually fulfill those roles and anticipate, really, that there is that understanding at the executive level as well.
One example I can think of is there are many communities that simply do not have commercially available expertise if you want your furnace fixed or some issue like that. Frequently it’s the individuals from this department who play a huge capacity role in communities, both by sharing their expertise with those that are inclined to absorb it and enhance the community capacity that way and ultimately providing some pretty effective on-the-ground service when the situation requires it. I know that’s stepping out, I think, beyond their mandate.
In line with that, my colleague’s compliments on the apprenticeship positions and programs, which I wouldn’t mind hearing more about at some point, is also very much appreciated and a key part of our really practical community capacity building approach. I’m always particularly interested in terms of energy efficiency and oil burner mechanics. I don’t think we have enough of those in our communities. This is something that the Housing Corporation also does and I hope that there’s one or two or five of them in those positions as well.
This department has subscribed to a standard of 25 percent better than the National Energy Code for buildings. I think that’s now out of date. We need to go to 40 percent. Essentially all of the provinces have gone to that either for the entire province or for the northern parts of the provinces. It’s time for us to recognize that we can effectively benefit from going to a higher standard in the North.
I will be commenting on other aspects in the detail, petroleum products division and procurement policies and so on. But I think I’ll save those for the detail and leave it at that. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Any further general comments, committee? If not, we’ll move over to Minister Abernethy for an opportunity to respond to general comments. Minister Abernethy.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I’ll just touch on a few of these areas and then we can get into some details where I can answer some specific questions.
With respect to Mr. Yakeleya’s comments about the high cost of energy in the communities, we see that and we recognize that, which is one of the reasons with public infrastructure we have been looking at alternatives and we have been using the Capital Asset Retro Fund to help us deal with those things. I acknowledge that we haven’t gone to any alternatives necessarily in the Sahtu with respect to heating, but we have been working in the Sahtu. One example is the Norman Wells school, the Mackenzie Mountain School, where we’ve been putting in plumbing and electrical retrofits to increase the efficiency of that building. In the studies for that building, as an example, there is a plan where we can switch to a pellet boiler in that school. The problem being, obviously, is the supply of the pellets and the technology in the Sahtu.
We’ve had recent conversations with SSI where they’ve been talking about alternatives, as well, and we’d like to continue that conversation and see what’s out there as far as an opportunity. Most importantly, what is the supply opportunity for pellets, so if there is a guaranteed supply of pellets available on a regular basis to the Sahtu and everybody’s comfortable with the distribution of those pellets, making sure they are getting in there and we are confident they can get in there, it makes it easier for us to utilize the Capital Asset Retrofit Fund to put in those technologies in the Sahtu. So we want to continue to have those discussions. We see future possibilities but we need some certainly around the supply.
Video conferencing and whatnot that was mentioned, we’ve heard constantly over the last four years and even into this year the need for bandwidth into the communities. We hear about the fibre optic link which is certainly going to increase that opportunity into the future, but we couldn’t afford to wait. We have services and programs we have to deliver now, and as a result, the department has gone out and negotiated for increased bandwith into the Northwest Territories which is going to benefit all of the communities throughout the Northwest Territories. We are pretty excited about that. We can go into some more detail when we’re going page by page.
To Mr. Bromley’s point about the Capital Asset Retrofit Fund, we are very proud of this program. We see a lot of potential, a lot of future here, and we’d like to keep building on it. We’d like to continue to move to alternatives as we can afford it. As we save money by utilizing the technology, it’s a double positive. For one, we’re contributing to the environment, supporting the environment, and we’re also saving money which is allowing us to invest more money. So it’s a good news story and as we save more, we should be able to invest more.
I’m going to get my deputy to just talk a little bit about the apprenticeship programs. Both Members brought that up, so we’ll get him to talk a little bit about that.
Just in closing to Member Yakeleya, we are serious about finding solutions in the Sahtu. It may take a bit of time, but we know there are good people there who want to work towards the same end and we will continue to work with them in moving forward.
So to Mr. Guy for apprenticeships.
Thank you, Mr. Abernethy. Mr. Guy.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Following up on the Minister’s remarks, we have a number of apprentices in the department who support our maintenance staff in delivering our maintenance programs with regular preventative maintenance, but also our Deferred Maintenance Program. We have carpenters, electricians, plumbers. Many of these apprentices come to us through the Apprenticeship Program and stay with us to get their full training status and then go on to stay with the department for many, many years. Many of our long-term employees started with us as apprentices. We look at it as a way of building capacity in the department, capacity within the trades industry. Those who don’t stay with us go on to work for the contractors that do our contract work, but also as part of our success plan. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Guy. Any further comments, committee? Mr. Bromley.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. Very quickly, I would ask the Minister what would constitute certainty around the supply of wood pellets in the Sahtu. Is it a contract with a supplier or is it a transportation issue? Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Mr. Abernethy.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. We are still trying to figure that out. If we’re going to invest a significant amount of money putting in pellet technology into somewhere like the Sahtu, let’s say Norman Wells as an example, the only way pellets could get up there would be in the winter by winter road or by barge in the summertime, but there’s no current supplier of pellets in the Sahtu. There’s nobody in the business of selling or providing a quantity of pellets. We would need to have certainty that there was someone who could get that to us on a regular basis so that if we turned over to pellets as an option, that we know we could continue to heat our buildings 12 months of the year where necessary, seven days a week. It’s kind of a little of both.
My comment on that is Canada ships about 90 percent of our pellets by overseas, so I don’t see an issue there. Obviously, the economics are there and so on and the pellet supply is available. In fact, there’s a glut right now in BC because of some of the other environmental impacts they are experiencing in the way of the pine beetle and so on. So I don’t see that as a big one to overcome if there’s a will to get it done.
I just wanted to ask the Minister does he agree that the department plays an important role in helping support some of these renewable energies becoming economic by being the big customer themselves locally and bringing the price through that move and the opportunity for others to move it to reality. Thank you.
The problem, as I see it, is there is currently nobody in the business of providing pellets in the Sahtu at this point, but I agree with the Member. In his comments, he kind of answered the question for me. As we are a client, we increase demand and, therefore, increase affordability and make it easier for others. But there still has to be a supply source. We’re not a distributor. We would be a client. If it’s there, it certainly increases our options.
I think that was a good, brief discussion. As for your last statement that you’re not a supplier, I will hold my comments until we get to petroleum products division. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Does the Minister wish to respond?
We can wait for the division.
Thank you, Mr. Abernethy. With that, does committee agree to proceed in detail? Mr. Yakeleya.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just wanted to follow up on Mr. Bromley’s exchange with the Minister and the reason why he’s stating that possibly there’s no supplier in Norman Wells, for example, or the Sahtu. Because we don’t have the support there. No one’s going to get up and just start putting the wood pellets to the fire and say, come. It’s ludicrous.
We’ve been saying that if you had an initiative to put a wood pellet boiler in one of the communities, like the Fort Good Hope new school, you would have had the suppliers in Good Hope. It would have been there. I guess I’m moving into an exchange here but you have to get realistic, too, with this type of initiative. That’s what I’m asking this Minister here. If you want to put something in, wood boilers, it takes a couple years, you can get somebody going. They have it in Fort Simpson. Just out at Checkpoint they have a company there putting these wood pellets together. They’re testing it out. They’re testing out what’s the best market they can have. Right now we get them out of Alberta. They used to do this in the Sahtu a long time ago. They used to cut cords of wood for the church and the steamboat. They’re no stranger to it. Even when I was in Old Crow they used to have cords of wood outside the Old Crow school. That’s how they heated the school. If the government said we’re going to do this and we want a supplier in the Sahtu, I think you’re going to have a few people step up and say let’s do it. But it’s got to be a business for them. It’s got to be business viability.
It’s all about money. Interest in their supplier of petroleum but we’re not a supplier of wood pellets. That discussion we’ll have later.
Give us an opportunity to get into this and not just blame the people saying there’s no supplier. Quit blaming us. That’s something that this government needs to know. We will do it if the demand is there, but like I said, all the projects are not around the Sahtu. They’re somewhere else. I want to just tell the Minister that if you give us the opportunity to be a supplier of wood pellets, we would do it. Actually, the people in Good Hope said, we want to get into this business. But they said, why? There’s no wood pellet business. They’re going to go broke. It’s the cart and the horse; which one goes first? You’re putting the cart before the horse here. I think we need to have some more discussion on this here. Put in a little bit of emotion. I take it as being too hard on the Sahtu.
Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. Abernethy.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think ultimately we’re agreeing with both Mr. Bromley and Mr. Yakeleya. We would obviously like to see and utilize this technology up there but currently there isn’t a distributor. I’m only purely talking about distributing. We have had conversations just last week with the SSI and they did express an interest in starting to have more conversations about this and creating opportunities for the utilization of things like pellets in the Sahtu. We’re absolutely open to that discussion and we’d like to be part of that discussion and solution, but we have to have those conversations before we can commit to doing anything specific. Ultimately whatever we do has to be cost effective and in the best interest of the pocketbook of the Northwest Territories so that we can continue to provide all the programs and services that we do provide as a government.
In short, yes, we’re interested in this. This is something that we’d like to work with the Sahtu on. Find a way to utilize this technology in that region. A lot of discussions need to be had and we’re ready to have them.
When we look at these types of programs, like I said I felt before in my statements, that the Sahtu didn’t really have a fair shake at this type of initiative. I felt that we missed out.
I was a little bit forceful in my language on our use of the diesel fuel. That’s a reliable source for us right now. I found that we need the government to be supportive. If you’re looking at the Norman Wells health centre and long-term care facility. Does Public Works and Services see that wood pellet would be a viable heating source of energy for any other large facility? If it is, then tell the people in the Sahtu we need to get a supplier going here.
There are all kinds of excuses not to have this. This is only one source of energy that we’re talking about. We’re not talking about geothermal or hydro. That’s my comment. Make it so that we can have a good discussion. The Minister said he’s having discussion with the Sahtu Secretariat right now. I look forward to the outcome of those discussions with the SSI. I’ll leave the rest for detail.
With respect to the health centre, absolutely it’s something we’ll look at as alternate sources of heating, such as pellets. Absolutely. The bottom line is we need to make sure that the cost savings are there and that there’s definitely payback. Right now without all the detail – and I want everybody to recognize that we don’t have all the detail – it looks like the transportation costs of pellets could be quite high. So we need to work with all the parties to find some solutions to some of the complications that will keep the costs high. Overall we agree with what the Member is saying, and with the health centre we’ll absolutely consider it.
Thank you, Mr. Abernethy. Does committee agree to proceed to detail?
Agreed.
Thank you. I’ll direct committee to page 7-7. Just to note, the department summary will be deferred until after the consideration of the detail is completed. We can move to page 7-8, information item, investment summary.
Agreed.
Page 7-9, information item, revenue summary.
Agreed.
Page 7-10, information item, active positions.
Agreed.
Page 7-13, activity summary, directorate, operations expenditure summary, $7.958 million. Mr. Bromley.
Yes, was that page 7-17, Mr. Chairman?
Page 7-13, Mr. Bromley. Mr. Yakeleya.
I’m up to…okay. No. It’s okay.
Okay. We’ll repeat that again. Page 7-13, activity summary, directorate, operations expenditure summary, $7.958 million.
Agreed.
Thank you. Page 7-14, information item, directorate, active positions. Mr. Hawkins.
Page 7-13?
Page 7-14, Mr. Hawkins. Go ahead.
Thank you. It’s actually hard to hear you over here. I seek unanimous consent to go back to page 7-13.
Mr. Hawkins, that activity was called three separate times so we will not be able to go back to that activity on page 7-13. Page 7-14, information item, directorate, active positions.
Agreed.
Thank you. Page 7-17, activity summary, asset management, operations expenditure summary, $82.229 million. Mr. Bromley.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Let’s see, my first one on this page is, I believe this is where the energy standards are set for our buildings and some of our energy management work. My understanding is that currently we subscribe to the 25 percent better than the National Model Energy Code for buildings. As I was saying, though, really the times are moving on and we need to continue to ratchet that up and increase our efficiency. I’m wondering if the Minister would commit to investigating the possibility for moving to a 40 percent better than the National Model Energy Building Code for buildings.
---Interjection
Excuse me. Mr. Bromley does have the floor. Thank you very much. Mr. Bromley, I apologize.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It does get hard to hear here. I think the Minister knows where I’m coming from here. I have to say that I’m not totally comfortable with his comment that it always has to be purely based on economics, these decisions, but I think so far we obviously have been doing very well, just based on economics. Although I see there are other government mandates and responsibilities here as well that need to be serviced. Could I get the Minister’s reaction on moving to a 40 percent better National Energy Building Code?
Thank you, Mr. Bromley. We’ll go to Mr. Abernethy.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Member is correct; right now we subscribe to the 25 percent better than the national. That’s our target. We do actually direct our staff in the department to meet or beat even the 25 percent and go beyond that. In most cases we do. We’re comfortable that we’re actually beating the 25 percent that we’re targeted for.
With respect to investigate, I’m happy to have the department look at some options. I will not commit to 40 percent at this time because the analysis hasn’t been done and I’m not sure whether or not we can actually get to the 40 percent. I’m happy to have the department look at it and provide me with some information so that an informed decision or informed direction can be made.
