Thank you, Mr. Blake. Minister Lafferty.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I totally agree with the Member that we need to deliver additional programming into our schools. That’s the way to go. The Trades on Wheels has been very successful in the Beaufort-Delta. It’s a stand-alone facility on wheels. At the same time, future projects, as the Member alluded to, this is something we need to bring to the DECs and DEAs and also the leadership. If that is the wish, we can definitely work with them. At the end of the day, we will come to a partnership-driven approach, such as we did with Trades on Wheels. The reason I am referring to that is it has been very successful. Those are the areas that we will share with the board chairs. I hold quarterly board chair meetings in education and I can share with them some of the ideas and suggestions brought forward by the Members. Mahsi, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister Lafferty. Is committee prepared to go into detail? Okay, I’m getting agreement. Committee, we are going to defer 8-2 in your capital estimates binder. We are going to go to 8-4, Education, Culture and Employment, activity summary, labour development and standards, infrastructure investment summary, infrastructure investment, $754,000. Does committee agree?
Agreed.
Thank you. I’d like to go to 8-7, Education, Culture and Employment, activity summary, education and culture, infrastructure investment summary, infrastructure investments, $2.986 million. Does committee agree? Mr. Bromley.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Again, I just want to emphasize here my complete chagrin in not having significant educational infrastructure projects profiled here, especially given the deferred investments in this area and the great need that the Members have been profiling for the last seven years that I know of.
There is also the area of early childhood development, of course. Apparently we are just putting all of these things on the backburner. I think Ms. Bisaro has profiled a number of things that were on the 20-year plan just a few months ago and are missing now in action. Maybe I could just ask, to start with, with the Sissons project that we are currently doing a planning study on but have no indication of funding, obviously that means you’re not intending to spend money to fulfill this plan this coming year. Could I get some clarification on when we intend to act on the plan or whether that will be stored on the shelf and become dusty and outdated?
Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Minister Lafferty.
Mahsi, Mr. Chair. I believe there are upwards of 400 different projects on an annual basis with a $75 million budget. Obviously, there will be a lot of infrastructure on hold, but there are also red-flag projects and Sissons is one of them we will continue to push. We know it’s a high priority for Members and it is a high priority for my department too. ECE is working closely with Public Works and Services and Education District No. 1, as well, to complete a planning study and to advance the renovation of Ecole J.H. Sissons through government infrastructure planning process. So this is indeed a priority for our department and we are committed to working with YK No. 1 to complete the education plan and planning study 2013-2014. Mahsi, Mr. Chair.
Again, I didn’t hear when this is going to happen. Perhaps the Minister can give some information on that.
Again, I don’t have a date right now, but it is a planning process that we need to make a move on. We have to work with other departments to move that further along with YK No. 1. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
In terms of the Kaw Tay Whee School in Detah, what are the standards for a gymnasium for a school like that and is there any plan to put such a facility in place? Thank you.
With any schools, we have to work closely, depending on the population of the students. We have to work with MACA if the school enrollment is under 150 students and also the community to find space availability for a gymnasium. For some schools, we build schools without a gymnasium because there’s a gymnasium in the community. So those are some of the reasons based on enrollment. If it’s lower than 150, then we have to work with Municipal and Community Affairs and also with community leadership to find a solution. So those are just some of the processes we have to go through within our ECE department, the capital planning process along with PWS and MACA as well. Mahsi.
Thanks for that. I’d appreciate maybe a commitment to get some information on what their plans are. Part of our problems in Weledeh is the community schools and the gymnasiums or recreational centres have been fulfilling the role of school gymnasiums and yet nobody is taking ownership of them. Sometimes they were built by the federal government, sometimes by GNWT, and both governments have shrugged and said okay, they’re your responsibility now, without providing sufficient funds to maintain or replace. So I wouldn’t mind an update on what the plans are now.
For K’alemi Dene, I believe we’re on the books for some sort of a school gymnasium, although when I look at the substantiation sheets they seem to be substantiating that there is no need. So maybe I could get clarification we are planning to build a gymnasium for the K’alemi Dene School in the near future, if not this coming fiscal year. At the same time, I’ll mention that the school was at capacity the day it opened. So is the Minister aware of this and the need to be considering additional space and perhaps this gymnasium will be built with the projections in mind that the facility was full the day it was opened. Thank you.
Mahsi. I would have to get Ms. Allison to just elaborate on details. Again, she’s been involved with this particular school as far as capital planning projects. So I’ll get Ms. Allison to elaborate.
Thank you, Minister Lafferty. Ms. Allison.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. With K’alemi Dene School, the capacity of that school is about 120. Currently we’re showing an enrollment at just over 100. So I think we’re in a good area right now. That is something that we monitor annually to make sure that we are within 85 percent range.
Now, with the school standards, as the Minister spoke to earlier, with a school that has a capacity of 120 we would be under that 150 mark. So we would be looking at a joint gym with MACA, which is the existing situation there right now. I believe MACA has actually transferred that facility over to the community. They do use that facility. I was talking to the school. They also have an activity room in their school, which provides about 85 square metres for doing yoga and light activity. So basically at this point we wouldn’t be planning for a new gymnasium unless we were doing it with MACA with us, similar to Detah. Thank you.
Thank you, Ms. Allison. Mr. Bromley.
Thank you. My understanding is that this is happening based on the substantiation sheet. Okay, that will help focus my attention that it should happen and I’d like the Minister to get going with that. Obviously, a substantial school, a gymnasium again that was shrugged off on to the community and it’s clearly in desperate need of replacement in a community that doesn’t have the capacity for that. So I’d ask the Minister to go after that and get that back on the books for the establishment of a good school for these kids. I mean, again, immediate occupation of that school at capacity and they need this sort of space to round out and help the approach to their education.
So I’ll leave that and just talk a little bit about the plans for the Prince of Wales Northern Heritage Centre. Some I’m moving away from education in the formal sense here. I’m happy to see the plans for some gallery development and lighting over the next couple of years. I think that’s definitely overdue. So I’m happy to see that. I’m also very happy to see the biomass heating system that’s being proposed for this year. So I’d support that. There are a couple of years we have on the books, I guess, another boiler for this facility and I don’t really understand that. Again, that’s in the projections for the fiscal year following the one under discussion here.
So I’m wondering if there’s any ready explanation for what that particular piece of capital is all about given that we’re putting a healthy amount into a new pellet boiler this coming year. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Bromley. Just to note, Mr. Bromley, your time did expire. I’ll let Mr. Lafferty conclude with that and if you need more questions and more time, let me know and I’ll put you back on the list. For that response we’re going to go to Ms. Allison.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would have to dig for some more information and let you know about that.
Thank you, Ms. Allison. Continuing on with the comments on page 8-7 I have Mr. Hawkins.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I’d like to move a motion on page 8-7 regarding J.H. Sissons School and the renovation.
I move that this committee strongly recommends that the government take immediate action to identify the funding necessary to commence renovations on Ecole J.H. Sissons School in the fiscal year 2014-2015. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. We’re just to wait for the motion to get circulated. The motion is in order. To the motion. Mr. Hawkins.
Thank you. I would first like to give credit to Mr. Bromley, who has brought this issue up here today. This isn’t his first occasion, nor should I miss the point of people like yourself, Mr. Chairman, Ms. Bisaro and there are many other MLAs of course who have brought up the need for J.H. Sissons to be brought up to date. When it comes to the quality of school, the facility needs desperate attention. It’s been brought up in committee many, many times. It’s been brought up for many years. I think we could speak at length to types of renovations that are necessary, but really it’s gone beyond speaking about it. It’s now to the point that we must commit actions for it and I know there are many schools out there and in ways that we all find on this side of the House to support. I know I’ve heard that Mr. Menicoche needs support for his school and I understand that, and J.H. Sissons is just one more school in a long list of schools that need help.
I think all of our schools deserve help. I know Mr. Yakeleya’s schools need help and he knows I’m there for him when it comes to these initiatives, as well, and I think no children should be, like they say, no children left behind, but no school left behind in desperate, despicable state, and the school is the oldest school I think in our inventory and certainly here in Yellowknife that has not had any facelift or serious renovation. It’s beyond desperate attention required at this point.
So rather than spending too much time, I just wanted to emphasize a few issues here while we were handing out the motion to all Members. I think this Assembly is well versed in the need for this school to be addressed. That said, I will ask for a recorded vote on this particular motion. Thank you.
(Mr. Dolynny): Thank you Mr. Hawkins. To the motion.
Question.
Mr. Hawkins, Ms. Bisaro, Mr. Moses, Mr. Bromley, Mr. Yakeleya, Mr. Menicoche, Mr. Nadli.
All those opposed, please stand.
Mr. Beaulieu, Mr. Abernethy, Mr. Miltenberger, Mr. McLeod - Yellowknife South, Mr. Lafferty, Mr. Ramsay, Mr. McLeod – Inuvik Twin Lakes.
Sorry about that, committee, just had to make sure we had the math right. All those in favor of the motion, we have seven. All those opposed, we have seven. Unfortunately, the Chairman has to vote in this case to prolong debate. The Chairman will be voting not in favor of the motion. Motion defeated.
---Defeated
Committee, we are on section 8-7, Education, Culture and Employment, activity summary, education and culture, infrastructure investment summary. Mr. Hawkins.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move that this committee strongly recommends that the government take immediate action to identify the funding necessary to commence the planning study for the construction of a stand-alone Yellowknife Campus facility for Aurora College in the fiscal year 2014-2015; and furthermore, that the government actively pursue partnership with other organizations and governments such as the City of Yellowknife to support this initiative. Thank you.
(Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Give us a moment; we are just going to circulate that motion.
Committee, the motion is in order. To the motion. Mr. Hawkins.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have talked about this subject for many, many years and I know my colleagues have strongly talked about this subject at length as well. The Aurora College, in the downtown of Yellowknife, needs to be established in a mechanism that helps foster growth and further programming for all students of the Northwest Territories. It is constantly under siege when it comes to residence problems, which is they don’t have enough residence, even their parking. There is just nowhere for it to grow and go.
I hear constantly from the students, the staff and even some board members about how they see a future with Aurora College in the Northwest Territories, yet they just don’t see a future there. It has been stymied for many years and I had often hoped that the department would have seen the wisdom by now to start a planning study to start looking towards the future.
Again, another issue that I am not sure that it’s necessary to go on too long, but what I would say, that without supporting a planning study, we can’t predict the future. The one organization I think we should take a quick look at this one is in talking with the major, Mayor Heyck, of the City of Yellowknife. The City of Yellowknife wants to be an active supporter in some type of partnership in order to help see this come out with a future of where the college can go. They believe they could provide some type of support. What type of support that would be I am not sure, but this motion leans toward let’s get this discussion out there, let’s plan for the future. It doesn’t not commit long-term capital dollars, but what it does is help describe the type of programming we need out there. That’s why it’s so important to get behind this motion so that the work gets started. Some may argue that it is not necessary at this time, and I think we have many students that we’re failing by not providing the opportunity to continue programming or expand programming.
The last thing I will say is that Aurora College has long talked about wanting to develop university-style programming, and I have supported the past-presidents who have carried that message forward and they said, if they could lean toward a bigger type of programming mandate, they could bring new money into the Northwest Territories. I have often heard about southern institutions wanting to come to the Territories to partner and they actually bring funding models and cash to the Territories to study things like Aboriginal language and culture, but that money and research travels south when they leave and we can’t let that continue to happen.
Aurora College does not have a reputation of attracting many people from outside of the territory and I think that if we started planning appropriately, maybe we can become a college that starts to do that. Maybe we can evolve into a university-style campus and into a university maybe someday, but it all starts with that first ring of the bell of enthusiasm and a planning study would be something to that effect.
Aurora College’s future will continue at its present pace. The students that attend there are very proud. The professors and leadership there and administration and board are very proud of the programming it offers, but united they all say the same thing, which is that much more could be done. Today this motion says let’s take a look at what type of future can happen there. Thank you.
(Mr. Dolynny): Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. To the motion. Mr. Nadli. To the motion. Mr. Moses.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just want to make a point of saying that we do have three campuses in the Northwest Territories right now, and before looking at planning to build a new, big infrastructure, that we look at how we can utilize all three campuses.
I have brought it up here before and have brought it in terms of operations budget in terms of the programs offered in Inuvik. We have a great campus. We have the Aurora Research Institute there. We have great partnerships with the universities to do work up in that region, and that I don’t feel that throwing more money at a planning study when we are not even utilizing all three campuses in the Northwest Territories efficiently right now is definitely putting the cart before the horse in this area.
If Yellowknife Campus is being overflowed or filled to capacity right now, then let’s look at Inuvik. Let’s put more programs up in Inuvik; let’s put some programs at Fort Smith and spread the wealth throughout the Northwest Territories. Just because the programs here in Yellowknife are being filled to capacity doesn’t mean that we have to build a new big building.
I know that, as I said, in Inuvik we have a really great facility and it is not being fully utilized. This is a great opportunity, and I thank Mr. Hawkins for bringing this motion so I can bring this to the floor, so we can start putting some of these programs that are in Yellowknife, into Inuvik.
Therefore, Mr. Chairman, I cannot support this motion, with the fact that this government does have only so many dollars to move forward, and with all the great buildings we have throughout the Northwest Territories, let’s utilize the buildings that we do have and start getting our people educated elsewhere outside. It doesn’t have to be the capital, but let’s utilize our buildings and stop wasting taxpayers’ dollars when we have buildings out there that can be used.
I won’t be in favour of this motion. I know it is something that needs to come down the pipe eventually, but I will not be supporting the motion going forward, knowing full well that we have a great facility in Inuvik. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Moses. To the motion. Ms. Bisaro.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have to respectfully disagree with the comments from my colleague to my left. The campus here in Yellowknife is full and it is full to overflowing. It has been in need of some kind of an examination of the situation for probably five years, maybe 10 years now. Several years ago, when the lease was up for Northern United Place, where Aurora College Yellowknife Campus is now located, I believe I remember hearing the Minister say that, well, this is just going to be for a short time, we were going to do a planning study and we were going to look at building a facility to get them out of that space and into a stand-alone campus. That is not anywhere on the horizon at the moment and it has not been for many years. I agree with Mr. Hawkins that it is time that we start getting serious about determining what we need for Aurora College.
Mr. Moses makes a really good point, that we have two other campuses which do have space and we could be moving some programs there, but I think we also have to accept that students don’t necessarily want to go to Inuvik or Fort Smith. I’m sorry to have to say that, but I think of the Teacher Education Program which was moved out of Yellowknife, it was a thriving program when it was in Yellowknife, and it moved to another campus and the numbers in that program have dropped significantly. Unfortunately, we have to face the fact that programs seem to thrive better here in Yellowknife because it is a bigger community, it has better services and all that stuff, which I hate to point out but it’s true.
It’s time that we have a facility here in Yellowknife for our Aurora College students which does not cause them to freeze in the winter and sweat to death in the summertime; it gives them enough space that they can actually have decent classrooms and it is well overdue. I fully support the motion. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. To the motion. Mr. Nadli.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. It’s difficult to listen to this, because at the community level, not everybody is in the position at their leisure to move to larger centres. Small communities, we try to at least to bring the services to the people. I think that was the whole philosophy about decentralization in our recent discussions. As we go forward on this, I am just not prepared to support this motion.
The small communities, I think, deserve more resources in terms of ensuring that we do deliver these educational opportunities for people at the smaller communities. At this point, I can see the merit of just really doing a planning study in terms of identifying the possibility, but there are parts of the college that exist in Fort Smith currently in Yellowknife, Inuvik, Hay River and Fort Simpson regional centres. From my perspective, I represent the small communities, there needs to be equal consideration for small communities, which at times lack the adequate resources to deliver proper programs and courses. Therefore, I am not prepared to support this motion. Mahsi.
Thank you, Mr. Nadli. To the motion. Mr. Bromley.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I think this is a good discussion. I would like to see more of this sort of discussion so we can… This has been something that has been bubbling along for a while, but meanwhile the Yellowknife Campus has been festering with overuse. I appreciate Mr. Moses bringing this to the table. I do agree with his point that we need to come up with a good vision of the role for each of the campuses. I think I have detected really good support. I personally very much support first-class facilities in our other campuses outside Yellowknife. We have put them in place there even to beyond capacity. We are trying to attract people to those campuses and that’s appropriate. I think I can justify expenditure of funds to make sure we have first-class facilities on those campuses even beyond capacity.
But at the same time, we are seeing an overuse of the very modest campus here in Yellowknife. The reality is that students want to come here, as we’ve seen with programs that we have tried to move out to those campuses and the programs have died out. They don’t get the enrolments so they stop being offered or return to Yellowknife.
One of the consequences, ultimately, is that we lose people from the Northwest Territories because students are choosing to go south. Some programs, if they are not offered in Yellowknife, and even if they are offered in other facilities, and even though the support is not the same, they are choosing to go south, and in doing so, they are getting captured in that system and they are not returning 100 percent. That, I think, is why I support Mr. Moses’ suggestion to come up with a good vision.
We haven’t been saying to people, forget about those campuses in Inuvik and Fort Smith and come to Yellowknife. We haven’t been saying that at all. It is the students who are saying that. I think we need to recognize that reality. In the meantime, though, we have known for years that we are over-capacity here and there have been all kinds of things bantered about. Maybe Mr. Moses’ suggestion of let’s come up with a good vision for the three campuses and recognize the realities and then we can work toward that.
I will be supporting this motion at the very minimum, in hopes that it would finesse that sort of examination and solid foundation and basis for moving forward. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Bromley. To the motion. Mr. Menicoche.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I just want to say that we have a well-established capital planning process. It takes a lot of hard work, working with your colleagues, different committees, working with Cabinet, to get your plans into the capital plan, and having last minute additions is something that I’m not really in favour of, only because it impacts some of the potential projects that I have in my small communities in my riding. Just with that alone, I like Mr. Moses’ suggestion as well. Let’s re-evaluate this. Let’s just not throw motions in at the last minute to force things done. We have to have a good evaluation and assessment and have a good plan. With that, I won’t be supporting this motion.
Thank you, Mr. Menicoche. To the motion. Mr. Miltenberger.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just briefly I want to just draw Members’ attention up and away from this specific issue that is on the table and just remind everybody about our fiscal circumstances, similar to what Mr. Menicoche was talking about.
We have a very modest capital budget, a very rigorous process that takes a great deal of patience and hard work to get projects on from across the North. It’s a process that everybody watches very carefully. We also are dealing with a project – I want to mention this project again – of the Stanton Hospital that is going to be the biggest capital project we have ever done in the Northwest Territories. It is going to take away what modest flexibility we have, so we have to be very careful about layering on new costs that will limit our flexibility, that will make it more difficult to try to meet some of the needs that are out there that have come up through the process.
All of these projects, we are swamped by far more needs than we have money. There is no doubt about that. I am just sitting here listening to the debate, looking at the previous motion in this House to add more money, money we don’t have; money, when we add it to all the other things on our plate, that is going to push us perilously close to the milestones and marks that we set as a government and as an Assembly to manage our money, to keep our credit rating, to keep our flexibility. So Cabinet won’t be supporting this motion either, just on the basis that we have a plan and we are working very hard to stick to it. We need to all remember that. Not that these aren’t good projects, but we can do what we can afford and we are always making choices, and that is what we are doing again in this case here. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister Miltenberger. We will go to closing comments to the mover of the motion, Mr. Hawkins.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Of course, my colleague will remain nameless on this next point, but I will really point out about the thin opportunities for Yellowknife in this capital budget, and I will let the people figure out from the record which MLA said that.
The reality here is that we are not asking for a college to be built. What it is, is a planning study. I think what happens here is that in order to see vision as to where this college should be going, it gives a chance to re-evaluate what’s being done now.
Not all college programming is created equal, not all campuses are created equal and certainly not all communities are created equal, and I understand that. We spend a lot of money supporting the other two campuses and I would say that they are two beautiful campuses, the one in Fort Smith and certainly the one in Inuvik. But yet again it can’t be seen as coming at a cost, and I don’t support projects that come at a cost in the communities, nor would I. I would hope that colleagues would reconsider and realize that I am asking for a planning study.
We have a very interested and active partner, who could be the City of Yellowknife, to help support this initiative. There are other partners out there that do exist. The Department of Education, Culture and Employment know exactly who those are.
This is not, when we talk about modest capital project additions, a significant expenditure, but to treat it as a walk-on, that it’s a surprise at the last minute, I have to admit that I am going to say I disagree with that point.
The motion is here today, yes, that I will concede to, but this is not a new issue by any means. So for anyone to say this has just snuck up on them out of the blue, I think misses it.
The thing here that is the key or the underpin of the whole scenario is about getting the Department of Education, Culture and Employment to actively work with partners that exist to help make this initiative successful, to help look at the long term.
Let the college itself drive its programming. Let the college itself drive the programming it needs where it needs these things. The Legislature itself doesn’t do that, nor should it. We already know that the college does not come and report to standing committee or the Legislature to talk about their details. We all know that it falls under the Education Minister. The reality here is, let the college continue its work.
As I said earlier, there are two beautiful campuses outside of Yellowknife, but we should allow the campus itself, the college itself to dictate its own individual programming, but we need to help foster that opportunity and that is what I am talking about here today. The planning study itself will allow them to help predict their future.
The college has been squeezed, if not shoe-horned into a situation that could be better described more as a very uncomfortable situation in Northern United Place. I don’t say that easily, because the owners of that building are constituents of mine and they often talk about how important the college is. I hear about that often and I agree that the college is an important tenant in that building. But at the same time, by thinking that that is the best place for it, is missing out on the opportunity of education that can happen here.
I think by voting against this, really you are voting against, by way of simple example, whether it is a $75,000 contribution, you are actually voting against every one of the students there who wants to take programming, it’s not the money. The people who want to continue the programming. It’s true. The instructors there will say that they continue the style of programming, they could attract more students if they had better residences. If they had better facilities, they could do more programming, they could do more. All you have to do is talk to the students there, talk to the administrators, talk to the instructors. There are so many reasons about yes for this. But really, at the end of the day, people will want to vote no, and I will respect that. But I won’t give up. I will be back on this issue. The fact is, who we are really hurting here is not the capital budget that Minister Miltenberger keeps an eye on, we are hurting the students of the Northwest Territories. Let it be no mistake that they are the ones impeded by not even allowing us to have a study to say, what could the college look like, what could we do for them, what could we do for education in the Northwest Territories.
Although I know how the vote is already going to go, and I will save my colleagues the grief of standing up to show that they are not going to vote for it, I will not ask for a recorded vote. But that said, Members have already clearly said how they are voting and that is all I have to say at this time.
