Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I thank Mr. Bromley and Mrs. Groenewegen for the motion. As I look at the motion and study the motion, everything seems to be fine with it, except for the last sentence. That raises some concerns with me, where the motion speaks to having something start next spring.
We have a process here we have all agreed on. We have capital planning; we have capital budgeting; we have a process; and the last motion suggests that if we bring a motion to the Assembly, we could skip the queue. What happens to the other infrastructure projects in the Northwest Territories, such as what Mr. Nadli speaks about in our regional centres and our communities, schools, health centres and infrastructure that is greatly needed in Colville Lake or Deline or Tsiigehtchic, small communities? We have to look at this very carefully.
I believe everything in the motion, but the active members of the Aven Manor, and they are a very active group, there is a process that we need to follow, otherwise we are going to really, really need to be careful on the precedents we are setting here. Nothing needs to jump the queue, because we all agreed to the terms and these are the rules of the game here.
I believe that what they are doing is honourable, and as Mr. Nadli pointed out, we certainly welcome any type of infrastructure coming into our communities, into our regions. I believe that the Aven Manor centre has a purpose in regards to some specialized care of our elders. We certainly want to keep our elders in our regions as close as possible in our communities.
These numbers may be true as to the increase in elders in the Northwest Territories in 10 to 20 years; however, as the motion is stated, I cannot support the motion because it’s going to set a dangerous precedent for our capital funding expenditures.
If that could be changed, I may consider the support of this motion. I would like to state that, Mr. Speaker.
Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. To the motion. Mr. Blake.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As much as I would like to support this motion, I cannot support it. I am thinking of the capital projects that are scheduled in my riding for this coming year. There is no price tag attached to this, assurance of support needed. What kind of assurance that is, is not too clear. There is a possibility that if the government is forced to put money forward to this, our capital projects that are scheduled to be in place in the next year may be bumped, and that is something that I am very leery of. We have needs in our region, as well, in the Beaufort-Delta. If this motion was to have a similar type facility of this nature situated in Inuvik, then I would give my full support. As much as this is needed, elders in my riding would like to be within their own communities. If they can’t be in their communities, they would like to be near Inuvik, for example. It is very challenging, especially when the elders are away from their families. For this reason, as I mentioned, we have a scheduled elders facility coming to Fort McPherson this year, and if I support this I feel that facility may be bumped off our upcoming schedule.
Thank you, Mr. Blake. To the motion. Ms. Bisaro.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I guess at the outset I should say that maybe I ought to declare a conflict of interest with this motion. However, I’m not going to.
I’d like to thank Mr. Bromley and Mrs. Groenewegen for bringing this motion to the floor. I think it’s a very necessary motion. The whereases in the motion capture pretty much everything that needs to be said, and there are a few things that bear repeating.
I’ve spoken twice to this issue as we’ve gone through the capital budget. I spoke once when we talked about housing; I spoke again when we talked through the Health and Social Services capital budget. As I stated then, I am concerned that the government seems to be placing the emphasis on an Aging in Place Policy and not placing an emphasis on infrastructure and on either enabling someone to build infrastructure or us planning for the government planning for infrastructure which is desperately needed.
Somebody, just in the last little while, stated that the crisis is going to occur in 2030 or 2031. The crisis is now. There are no spaces available at the Avens Centre. The Aven Manor is full. The Dementia Centre is full. As is mentioned in the motion, it’s a four-year wait to get into the Dementia Centre. It’s an eight-month wait to get into the manor. Unfortunately, pretty much the only way you get into the manor or the way you get into one of the other facilities up there is if somebody passes away and that opens up a space and somebody can move in off the list. That’s pretty tough. That’s not what we want for our residents.
With the two facilities that are being built in Norman Wells and Behchoko, it’s going to take a bit of the pressure off, but those two facilities are going to be full pretty much when they’re finished, and it’s not going to make a big dent in the 200 beds, three times what we need. We need 200 beds come another 10 or 15 years.
When we talked about health, I said that I was dismayed about the lack of planning. We’ve just gone through the Health and Social Services capital budget and there was nothing in that budget that plans for long-term care facilities for our seniors, and at that time I said we know we need the beds, we know the spaces are required, we know we don’t have spaces right now, and yet I just don’t hear the words coming out of the Minister’s or the government’s mouth that says, yes, we’re going to get on that and we’re going to get on that not today but yesterday because we know it’s an urgent need, and by that, I was referring to infrastructure.
We have someone who is willing to take on a project for us, and they are not asking for capital dollars necessarily. I’ve heard concerns from two Members that this is asking for capital dollars. There’s nothing in this motion which speaks to a need for capital dollars. It asks for support, and the project can go ahead with support from this government that basically says in the future we will use your facility. That’s all that they want. They want a guarantee that the GNWT will use the facility.
We’ve got somebody who is willing to take on the project who is innovative. They will use partners from within the community, from outside of the community. They will, as has been pointed out already, be able to build a facility cheaper than what the government can, and that, in my mind, is something that’s a very positive thing.
The motion itself has two parts, and the first part I want to speak to is, as I’ve already talked about, the support. It’s asking for the support. The construction next spring is a very ambitious project on the part of Avens. They want to start next spring because they know that the need is there for the beds and they want to be able to say we’re going to have beds in a two-year time frame, not a five or a six-year time frame. So, the support that is needed can be varied, and I want to state again it does not have to be capital support. I know that Avens is not asking for capital projects from other communities to be put back so that Avens can build their project.
The second part of the motion, it’s actually the first part, but that the government develop a long-term action plan for the provision of the necessary long-term care beds. That’s part of a lot of my concern, is I don’t see, I don’t hear that the department has a plan. It wasn’t in the capital budget which we just reviewed. I haven’t heard from the Minister that they have a long-term plan for long-term care beds, and it’s known that we need it. It’s known that it’s needed in Hay River where they’ve just built a new hospital without extended care. It’s known that we’re going to need it at Stanton which is going to be built without extended care, and it’s known that we need it in our regional centres, absolutely, and in many of our small communities. We need to get the Minister, the Health and Social Services department, the government to develop a plan for long-term care beds, and that’s what this motion is asking.
I can’t say much else that hasn’t already been said. I am totally in support of this motion, and I would ask my colleagues who can’t support the motion to reconsider, and if they can’t support the motion maybe they will abstain and let this important motion go forward.
Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. To the motion. Mr. Hawkins.
Thank you for the opportunity to speak to this important motion, Mr. Speaker. Often I find myself at Avens talking to people who don’t necessarily live there but they see one day that they may be there. But quite often what I hear from them is they just don’t see the room available for them to retire in a particular place like Avens. This story or narrative could be applied anywhere really, I mean whether you live in Inuvik or Hay River or Fort Simpson, and even in places like Fort Providence or McPherson. I agree with the MLA for Mackenzie Delta that people in his communities probably want to retire or spend their final years around their family, their food, their language, and certainly their friends and loved ones.
I don’t think that this motion is as complex as we’re making it. I think the motion really speaks to the fact that we need a strategy. We can call it a vision. We can call it a plan. I mean, we can even name it after the Minister; I don’t really care. But it talks about doing something useful and saying we need to know where we’re going. As far as I’m concerned, we need to know where we’re going because that will help define how to get there. If we don’t know what we want to do for seniors housing, what do you think the seniors feel about this particular situation? How do you think the elders in our communities feel about this situation?
Often I get told by these people who are seniors or elders or certainly good friends, I would definitely define most of them as very, very good friends, but they always talk about affordability every single time, access to an affordable place to spend their time. As they look down the path or the journey that they’re going to be taking, they see affordability as a major hurdle. Many of them are working today. They will tell me they can’t afford to retire. That’s the reality. I mean, cost of living is no new subject line for this Legislature. It’s an unfortunate situation, but I know many seniors who continue to work into the years that they really wish they could fully retire. They dreamt of retiring. One day their turn would come up. They were loyal to the system; they paid their taxes; they did their duty; they’re good Canadians and they love their country. Now they’re wondering: does anyone love them as they struggle to find a way to spend those special years without having to go to work if you’re 60 or 65 and, in some cases, even older? There are many cases where I talk to seniors who are just simply, their health is running down and they shake their head and go, we just can’t afford to retire and this is our only option to live, is to work.
I call that an undignified way of treating our special people that we care for very much. I mean, there isn’t a day that doesn’t go by that I hear people talk about how important our elders are, how important our seniors are, how important and we should always keep them in the forefront of our mind. I was listening to Chief Joachim Bonnetrouge the other day and he talked about spending more time with elders and how important those things are. I mean, the point that I’m raising here is the fact that we always have to make sure they are foremost on our minds and we are certainly taking care of them to the best of our abilities.
At Avens in particular, but this could apply anywhere in the Northwest Territories, whether it’s Fort Smith, and soon-to-be Behchoko, it may someday be Fort Providence, a senior or an elder should not think it’s like they hit the lotto if they get in. They should know that their turn is coming, and they will wait. I know the elders in our territory are so respectful and they will wait and they will bide their time. But frankly, many cannot wait, and many will never see a list that big.
In Yellowknife in particular, there’s a waiting list of 50 people. Three are from out of town and the rest of the applicants are spread across particular units, whether it’s the Aven Court, the Aven Ridge, its subsidizer markets, even the dementia centre. Many people want this opportunity to be taken care of, but they want to be part of the solution as well. I don’t want to think of how many seniors have to struggle just to survive day to day. They’re looking for a fair opportunity and this motion really sets that into motion, as a matter of fact. This motion says that we need a strategy or a vision and we need to find our lens. This is one particular partner, such as the Avens folks.
I mean, there could be different combinations, different ways, whether it’s with a community government. I encourage all community governments to come up with solutions for their seniors and elders. That is the way it gets done. I mean, it’s going to be a long time for us to sit here and wait for the GNWT to do everything. It’s just impossible to imagine. I could make light of that, but that is the fact; it’s going to be a long time before the government solves these problems. So, partnership is the only solution and the only way that should matter because it is the only way that does matter.
I’m going to finish by saying that there are so many people who have led the charge for us, who have blazed the path, taught us many things and they certainly deserve our support. What I’ll say is up until now, they certainly deserve better. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Abernethy.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We’ve had an opportunity to look at the motion and the different whereases and we agree with the intent of what the Members are trying to say here today. In fact, we know that there’s a problem coming. Our continuing care report articulated clearly the need for beds in the Northwest Territories and this is something that we’re trying to address.
To that end, we have come forward with Our Elders: Our Communities, which I acknowledge Members have made it clear that this is not an action plan, and I agree, this isn’t an action plan. It’s a strategic framework that will help us form and articulate an action plan.
During business planning the deputy minister of Health and Social Services indicated to committee that we hear them and that we are going to take those additional steps to develop the action plans necessary both on aging in place and on long-term care. This is work that is currently underway and I rearticulated it last week during Committee of the Whole. Rather than developing one single action plan to address all the elements of this strategic framework, we will focus on the different priority areas, the different pillars for aging in place and long-term care. That is work that is currently underway. It’s going to take a bit of time. It is a significant amount of work, but it is being done.
Having said that, we continue to move forward and try to address the needs of our seniors, who are obviously an incredibly important segment of the population here in the Northwest Territories. We are moving forward to try to support our seniors living or aging in place.
I’ve had an opportunity, as I’m sure many people have, to talk to different seniors throughout the Northwest Territories and one of the common things that I hear is: I would like to stay in my home for as long as possible; if I can’t stay in my home, I’d like to stay in my community as long as possible; and if I can’t stay in my community, I’d like to stay in the region in which I am from for as long as possible; and if I can’t stay in the region, if I get to a point where I need the additional care, then I will go to a territorial facility like the Aven Dementia Cottages. So we’re working with the people to do that.
To do that, there are a number of things that happen. For a healthy individual to stay in the home, one segment, seniors living in public housing, we provide a rent cap for seniors living in housing of $90. The Housing Corp is a great partner in trying to address housing for seniors. We also have home heating subsidies for seniors to help them stay in their homes and afford to live in their homes for as long as possible. For individuals who are in public housing or even individuals who own their homes, there are other programs like the CARE program for healthy individuals to do home repair. We’ve got a visible design aspect of the CARE program which I think is innovative, which has helped individuals when they need to upgrade their homes so that they can include wheelchair ramps or other things so that they can maintain access to their homes. It’s there. The Housing Corp is a great partner. They’re doing incredible work.
We’ve also got the Housing Corp providing funding for preventable maintenance for things like furnace repairs. Right now seniors are the largest group taking advantage of this. We do know or, rather, on top of that, the Department of Health and Social Services is working with our valuable partner, the NWT Seniors’ Society, to identify things we have been doing in communities to help people stay in their homes, things like programs to help people shovel walks or get groceries or do all these different things to help them live in their homes for as long as they can.
But we know that individuals may eventually have to leave their home. We want them there as long as they can. They want to be there as long as they can. When it’s time to leave their homes, obviously people want to stay in their communities as long as they can, and we are working with the Housing Corporation to make that possible.
The Housing Corp, in the current capital and I think last year’s capital, as well, is moving forward or has already completed or is in the process of building five independent living units in the Northwest Territories: Whati, Fort Liard, Fort McPherson, Fort Good Hope and Aklavik. The Housing Corp has worked with Health and Social Services closely because it’s going to take more than one department to address these problems. It’s going to take the partnerships that the Members are talking about. In these facilities, they have actually incorporated a room where the Department of Health and Social Services could run some programming out of and bring professionals like home support workers and others into those buildings to provide care to the residents of those independent living units so we can keep them in the communities for as long as possible. Eventually, unfortunately, it may become true that individuals do, in fact, need to leave their communities and receive a higher degree or grade of care, and those will be provided in long-term care facilities throughout the Northwest Territories.
We have long-term care facilities. Once we’re done in the Sahtu, we’ll have long-term care facilities in every region of the Northwest Territories. The last one is Sahtu. The Sahtu will bring 18 beds that don’t exist today and the Behchoko facility will bring eight beds that don’t exist today. Based on working with our colleagues across the House, we’ve been able to maintain 10 beds that we almost lost in Hay River for long-term care.
Eventually individuals are going to have to move or get a higher degree of care. That’s where Avens has been such a great partner in the development of the Aven Cottage for the dementia facility here in the Northwest Territories, an incredibly valuable service.
We want to keep moving forward. In addition to continuing to strengthen home and community care services, we obviously need to review and prepare for the increasing demand for a facility-based long-term care, including dementia care, extended care, and to improve and enhance supports for respite care, palliative care, geriatric assessment and restorative care. Long-term care facilities are designed to meet the highest level of care needs for people who cannot live independently, even where there is home care available.
We recognize that sometimes seniors will require a higher level of care than can be provided in their home or in an independent living unit. To meet this need, we’re expanding our complement of long-term care facilities so that this service is available in every region, allowing our seniors and elders to be closer to their families and their homes, which we have heard is what they want.
Over the past eight years, the GNWT has invested heavily, developing and expanding long-term care facilities to a total of approximately $86 million. Today there are a total of 173 long-term care beds. I hear the Members; it’s not enough. We know it’s not enough and we need to do more.
Recently completed and current projects include the expansion and renovation of the Northern Lights Special Care Home in Fort Smith; the Woodland Manor extension, which is maintaining the 10 beds; the construction of the Norman Wells Health Centre, which is 18 beds, which includes the long-term care facility with the 18 beds; the expansion and renovation of the Jimmy Erasmus Long-Term Care Facility in Behchoko, which is the nine beds; and the construction of the Aven Cottages and the Territorial Dementia Facility, which opened four years ago.
When current projects are completed in Behchoko and Norman Wells, the total number of beds available in the Northwest Territories will be 201.
As I mentioned previously, we completed a continuing care review in November 2013. The review identified a number of priority areas for action to provide equity of access to services and address the needs of our aging population. To guide those actions, we developed Our Elders: Our Communities, which is the strategic framework. Based on the recommendations from Members during business planning, we will use the recommendations of the continuing care review to plan for the enhancement and improvement of home and community care services so we can better support seniors as they age. As I indicated and confirmed last week, part of that is a long-term care review and a long-term care action plan. That action plan will be a longer term action plan for the provision of necessary long-term care beds. It will highlight the areas of resources, facilities and timing in order to meet the oncoming needs, the needs for facilities for seniors. It will identify possible partnerships to serve those seniors who have some financial independence in both large and small communities. To that end, Mr. Speaker, there is nothing today stopping somebody from building an independent, non-government funded long-term care facility to meet the needs of the residents of the Northwest Territories.
The plan we are working on is a plan that will take us to 2031 and beyond. It is exactly what the Members are asking for, and regardless of how the vote goes today, it is something we are committed to doing, it is something we are doing and we will continue to move forward with the development of that plan.
I look forward to working with Members, our important partners like the Housing Corp, seniors’ societies from across the Northwest Territories and Avens. We know it needs to be done and we are going to do it.
Where we have a problem with this motion is that it recommends or suggests that we need to enable construction of the proposed 60-bed territorial facility, the Avens facility, by next spring. We are working closely with Avens. We are their partner and they are our partner. We are partnering with Avens on the pavilion expansion, which is the construction of 29 to 30 new beds and the refurbishing and upgrade of the additional beds that are currently in the facility, which is 29 or 30. It is not 60 new beds in the Northwest Territories. It is 29 new beds and the refurbishing of the existing, to take us to a total of 69 beds in the Avens complex.
We have given Avens $25,000 to participate on a steering committee to help quantify what their ask is. I heard Ms. Bisaro mention that all they want us to do is confirm that we are going to use the beds. We have been working with Avens for a while on this project and they have come to us with a number of different asks. One of them was to guarantee beds. We are certainly exploring that, but right now, the last conversation I had with Avens was, they want us to build it, they want us to pay for the construction of this building and they also want us to pay for the O and M. If this building is built, regardless of whether or not we participate in the construction and capital costs, we are going to be paying the O and M, which we know is about $3.6 million a year.
So we need to do the planning. We need to understand what we are getting ourselves into as we move forward with our important partners, Avens. But to suggest that we will be ready and they will be ready to begin construction in the spring is jumping the queue. We need to work with our partner. We need to identify clearly what their ask is. We are doing that, we are working with them. The first step is to retain and consult and review the data that they have come forward with and that we have as well. We know the end of life of the existing facility is coming; we know there is an urgency. I as Minister of Health and Social Services and a resident of Yellowknife, am committed to making this happen, but we cannot commit to doing it in the timeline specified by this motion.
We have a capital process and we will continue to follow the capital process. I will continue to work with Avens; the staff of the department will continue to work with Avens; we all want the same thing and we will get there, but it would be impossible for us to begin construction or work with them to begin construction in April without actually knowing what their plan is. They have come to us with a large number of plans. We will work with them. We will find a solution. This facility will get built. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Abernethy. Mr. Miltenberger. To the motion.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Just quickly to the process. We have a rigorous capital planning process that has been refined over the decades to where it is today, and we all know that it is fully subscribed to and that we have probably a $3 billion infrastructure deficit that we are working hard to try to address.
We are well through this upcoming year’s capital planning process. Every penny has been accounted for. When I look at this motion, be it 60 beds, 30 beds and a full-scale renovation, I would suggest that we are looking at well over $50 million, a motion that is put on our table as we are probably two-thirds of the way through our capital planning process for this year to start this spring, six months hence. It’s not a realistic motion. It does pose a big problem of queue jumping and they need to do more thorough planning.
In terms of protecting this process and respecting this process, I would suggest that this motion, at least the last part where they want to build within six months, is not doable. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. To the motion. I will allow Mr. Bromley to have closing remarks.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Thank you to all of my colleagues for your comments on this motion. I think it has attracted a lot of thoughtful consideration.
I would like to start by mentioning, of course, that when you look at the capital plans, we are finishing up a couple of facilities in the regions, but that’s it. Where are they? It’s not that we’ve just started talking about our capital facilities, our facilities for seniors.
What this motion is, it’s a call for a plan. It’s a call for a plan because there is no plan right now. We had government report after government report; no plan is in place. I know the Minister has heard the Members’ call for getting ahead of this looming deficit with a plan that shows, in fact, what steps will be taken, what resources are required. Let’s see that capital plan, let’s see a timeline, one that clearly lays out all of those things and, in particular, the partnerships.
I think Avens is profiled here because it has demonstrated what can be achieved. As the Minister and others have said, when there are incredible partnerships, when the community plays a role and when business plays a role, when everybody gets together, non-government organizations and so on, and discusses there is a real urgent need, let’s move forward, and they have done that with government participation and on a timeline that recognized the need and not government’s continual delaying and lack of planning to get things on the capital plan.
I think that what we’re really talking about is respectful treatment of our elders, recognizing that, as some have said, it goes beyond just beds. It goes into the areas of addressing elder abuse and the desire of our seniors to participate in the benefits of the facilities wherever they can, wherever those facilities may be, be they territorial facilities in Yellowknife or locally.
I think three of my colleagues have mentioned concerns that this is a Yellowknife project and doesn’t recognize the community needs. If that’s the case, then I take that as my fault, because I read this as territorial. The elements here describe the territorial situation and it calls for a territorial action plan in both small and large communities.
It does indeed address Avens, which is, again, a project that has had amazing community participation and partnerships with business and so on and, because of that, is actually doing some site preparation, again with support of this government, at least philosophically, to get that work started.
We can spin this every way we want, but the thing is, there is great need. There is an amazing bunch of people who are ready to move, committed to seniors. Their focus is seniors. Their respect is for seniors, and they are going to come up with a process to get it done. They see the need. They are serving seniors from all over the Northwest Territories.
But this motion is not meant to just call for that. This motion is to address long-term care. Everybody, every Member in this House wants their constituents who are seniors to have the ability to access facilities to the extent possible as close as they can to home. That is a given. I don’t operate on any other basis and I know the Minister doesn’t either. So let’s put a plan in place, let’s get this addressed.
The Minister mentioned seniors housing. I am not aware of seniors housing in Yellowknife, other than Avens of course. I think there is essentially none here, despite the fact that we have so many seniors and they are rising at triple the rate of the NWT. We’ve called for this motion to address those sorts of things.
I appreciate the Minister’s recognition of the need for this plan and I would say a commitment to get it done already. I appreciated his recognition that we can’t rely on Aging in Place to get what we need done. We need to recognize that, in fact, even if we are wildly successful with that, there will be huge needs for these facilities.
The Minister mentioned there’s nothing stopping anybody from providing for seniors facilities, private enterprise. Obviously, something must be because it hasn’t happened yet and this motion calls for the Minister to assist society in whatever measure is needed to get that done. I agree that private industry should be playing an important role in this area, but we aren’t down south. The Minister knows the cost of living, the cost of operation and so on. So there are some real issues that the Minister could play an important role in.
Again, this was not meant to be a Yellowknife-centric motion. The Avens facility is a territorial facility. This motion is meant to get a plan in place for throughout the Northwest Territories to address the needs our seniors in terms of long-term care beds in a very respectful way.
I, again, thank my colleagues for all of their comments and I look forward to a recorded vote. Mahsi.
Mr. Bromley, Mrs. Groenewegen, Mr. Dolynny, Mr. Bouchard, Mr. Hawkins, Ms. Bisaro, Mr. Moses.
Thank you. All those opposed, please rise.
Mr. Yakeleya, Mr. Blake, Mr. Beaulieu, Mr. Abernethy, Mr. Miltenberger, Mr. McLeod – Yellowknife South, Mr. Lafferty, Mr. Ramsay, Mr. McLeod – Inuvik Twin Lakes, Mr. Nadli.
Thank you. All those abstaining, please rise. Results are seven in favour, 10 against. The motion is defeated.
---Defeated
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Thebacha, that Bill 33, An Act to Amend the Elections and Plebiscites Act, No. 2, be read for the first time. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The motion is on the floor. The motion is in order. To the motion.
Question.
Bill 33, An Act to Amend the Elections and Plebiscites Act, No. 2, has had first reading.
---Carried
I’d like to call Committee of the Whole to order today. There are a number of items as listed by the Speaker that are before Committee of the Whole. What is the wish of committee? Ms. Bisaro.
Thank you, Madam Chair. We would like to continue consideration of Tabled Document 115-17(5), Northwest Territories Capital Estimates 2015-2016, with the Department of Natural Resources and the Legislative Assembly. Thank you.
Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. Does committee agree?
Agreed.
Thank you, committee. We’ll commence with that after a brief break.
---SHORT RECESS
I’d like to call Committee of the Whole back to order and the department up next is the Department of Environment and Natural Resources. I’d like to ask Minister Miltenberger if he would like to bring witnesses into the Chamber.
Yes, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Does committee agree?
Agreed.
Thank you. I will ask the Sergeant-at-Arms to please escort the witnesses to the table.
For the record, Mr. Miltenberger, could you please introduce your witnesses?
Thank you, Madam Chair. With me is the deputy minister, Ernie Campbell; and head of forest fire operations, Bill Mawdsley.
Thank you, Minister Miltenberger. General comments on the Department of Environment and Natural Resources. Mr. Bouchard.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I just have a few statements concerning the biggest project on this budget, which is the purchase of the 802 air tanker fleet replacement. I guess coming into this Assembly, I know they talked about these replacements for a while, so it’s kind of a process of us new MLAs starting and looking into the process of replacing these units. It’s replacing an older fleet that I think we got for minimal dollars. I guess the high cost associated to the purchase of these newer planes, and I know the department’s been looking at this for years because I know the department did some tests in Hay River, I want to say half a dozen years ago, maybe six or seven years ago where they did some water tests between the 215s and the 802s. I think this was some of the basis of some of the assessments of these 802 new bombers that we’re looking at, these smaller bombers we’re looking at purchasing.
I guess my questions are concerns with the capacity of them. They’re quite a bit smaller. Their volumes are quite a bit smaller. I guess I’m concerned with the deep canopy penetration of the units. I know we have used them in some of our firefighting these last few years because I saw them in Hay River, I think, as a tactic with other units, I guess, other bigger units. So I think those are my initial concerns. I guess the Minister has expressed to us in committee meetings and stuff like that, that they have justification of the purchase of them.
I guess my concerns also in that area is they are, you know the budget item there, they are territorial units, I do believe, and I see them down as Fort Smith here in some of the documents we’ve gotten. I just have a little bit of concern on that. I’m just wondering where we’re going to locate them and what the costs are on that one. When we have newer units, is there going to be additional cost to housing?
I guess some of the justification is that we’ve looked at the operating costs and maybe some of the potential revenue. Because we’re buying new aircraft, we might be able to lease them out. Have we looked at the potential of that revenue in the future? Those are some of my general comments, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Bouchard. Minister Miltenberger.
Thank you, Madam Chair. As the Member indicates, I think this is our third year to have seen the 802s operate under full forest fire operating conditions, under extreme forest fire operating conditions, especially last summer. They have performed admirably. The 802s would equal the impact of the four 215s that we do currently have. The four 215s, which I point out are probably 60 years old, roughly, burn fuel that is going to become obsolete in the not-too-distant future. There’s three years left on the current contract. We have at least two instances and one near incident where we actually ran out of avgas in communities, in Norman Wells and Inuvik to be specific, where the 215s were stranded on the runway and we had to work to find other aircraft to come in and assist.
The cost of operating the new units would be considerably less than the existing fleet. It’s around $4 million a year right now to keep the 215s in the air and operational.
The fuel consumption is probably one-third and it’s Jet B versus lead-filled avgas, and the operating costs, because they’re newer planes, would be considerably less. But I’d ask the deputy if he wants to add any further detail to the Member’s concerns, or Mr. Mawdsley. Let’s start with the deputy, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Minister Miltenberger. Mr. Campbell.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I’ll just add a couple of things. The 802s compared to the 215s for flying time roughly are the same, just over four hours for both types of aircraft. As the Minister mentioned, fuel consumption, the 802s burn around 300 litres an hour compared to the 900 litres an hour for the 215s. Also, on the capacity, the work we’ve done in the past, the 802s with just over 600 gallon tanks compared to the 1,200 gallon tanks for the 215s, you would need two 802s to match one 215.
We’ve found in the Northwest Territories, with our different fuel types and canopies, that if you double up on the 802s, they do penetrate the canopy and they are efficient in the Northwest Territories. I just thought I’d add that, as well, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Deputy Minister Campbell. General comments. Anything further, Mr. Bouchard?
Thank you, Madam Chair. The other general comments that I had, we’ve been kicking around some of the ideas. One of the ideas is: Has the department looked at, as far as the 215s, what the plan is going forward with them? Are there discussions of selling them off? Are there discussions of maybe keeping them until we have operation? The Minister talked about three years left in the contract, but is there discussion of maybe operating the two newer units along with the 215s for a period of time this year or next year and what our capacities are? My understanding is we don’t get a whole ton of money for these older 215s but we might want to look at a mixture. On busy years like we had, the cost of running those, maybe, versus us having to hire bigger planes or the newer 415s from some other jurisdiction. Has the department looked at what we’re going to do with the 215s, and is there an option to keep them and keep them operational for a few more years to see the mixture between them and the 802s? Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Bouchard. Minister Miltenberger.
Thank you, Madam Chair. The option of selling the planes – as you know, they are not worth an enormous amount of money – is definitely one that we’re seriously looking at. On the assumption that if the budget is approved for these planes, the orders would be put in and that we anticipate that we’d have all 802s ready to go for the fire season of 2017. Until that point, we would be continuing to maintain and keep the 215s. We would start on the fire season and then, once we have the new fleet on line, we would look at what kind of disposal is in our best interest as a government.
The issue of keeping both fleets going is one of cost. So, we spend $4 million a year, roughly, and those costs are going to continue to rise as maintenance costs go up and avgas becomes scarcer for the 215s, so we’d have to keep that in the budget plus get… I could ask the deputy for the number, but the operating costs for the 802s would have to be added to that if we are going to look at keeping all the planes on as part of the fleet, which would be very expensive and I don’t think very cost effective in terms of the money. If we had the 802s and we needed additional air support, we would probably be far better off to bring in, as we have this last summer, available planes through our MARS Agreement, 415s and turbos or 215 turbos that are operational. Up to the end of 2017, we will have the 215s fully operational. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister Miltenberger. Anything further, Mr. Bouchard? General comments. Next I have Mr. Dolynny.
Thank you, Madam Chair. I’d like to welcome the Minister and the department here today. I do appreciate over the course of the better part of the year, I know the Minister has been diligent on providing much of the technical and financial assessment to committee in preparation for today. I do appreciate a lot of the background. But for a lot of people tuning in, this is a lot of new information and we’re going to be throwing a lot of technical data here at them. With that said, I think we need to go through a bit of an exercise, because I think we are embarking on a new format when it comes to fire suppression.
We know that the current fleet of CL-215s, these were planes that we inherited for, I believe, a very minimal amount of money. I heard that the transaction was a $1 bill from the federal government, and we maintained the operations of these 215s over the years. But really, by virtue of this capital process, we’re actually now getting in the business of actually buying new planes for the first time ever, when you think about it, so I think it’s important that we do the due diligence here to make sure that if this is indeed what we want to do as a government. Do we want to be in the business of owning planes? Do we see what the economic benefit is and what the strategic advantage is for us to be the owners of very technical and expensive pieces of equipment?
Now, I know Mr. Bouchard went and talked a bit about the technical aspect, and I do have some concerns that may have not been mentioned and that I think need some response to. These 802s or amphibious air tankers, otherwise known as the fire boss, are definitely a smaller plane. Anyone who is able to Google it will be able to see online this is a very small plane and a very small payload capacity in comparison to the 215s, and I’ll talk about the 415 in a second. The concern I have, and I think Mr. Bouchard kind of mentioned, is given the nature of the fire season that we had last year, and, hopefully, we don’t have a repeat, but quite frankly, we don’t know. We know that we had one of the worst fire seasons, if not the worst fire season in the history of the Northwest Territories, and I would caution to say we probably had one of the worst fire seasons in North America vis-à-vis any other jurisdiction in Canada. So we literally have the prime situation where we could test a lot of these planes, and I know a lot of these planes through our MARS program did come up and help us fight those fires.
My concern is whether or not the 802s would stand up to the rigours of the type of fire that we had last season and dealing with that first attack mode given the smaller plane, smaller payload capacity, the fact that these planes are more susceptible to wind and wind shear, and we know very clearly that fires create their own atmosphere, fires create their own climate, and with that a lot of my dialogue with pilots who actually fly these planes have clearly indicated that the 802s, given the ferocity of a fire and the climate that a fire creates, could serve to be problematic given the type of fire we had last season. I want to at least point that out, that there are obviously advantages and disadvantages for every one of these planes that we look at.
The other concern that I do have is the ability for the 802s that when they’re flying, they’re flying by visual only and they do not have the capabilities of doing instrumentation flying, which then limits, I guess, the amount of time that these planes could be in the air fighting fires. It also could hamper the ability of these planes to go overnight, if need be, to other locations. They would have to fly during daytime only, so where, I believe, the 215s currently and a 415 counterpart do have the ability to fly what is referred to as VFR.
Going back to my original issue without getting more into specifics of the specs, I’m still a little bit on the fence here as to why the GNWT feels that we have to own these planes outright, that we’re not able to consider any type of private operation or private ownership. The department and Minister have clearly embarked on many P3 initiatives for other investments in the Northwest Territories, such as the fibre optic line and the Stanton project, but yet it appears that this project here, we want to do it in house. I have a hard time deciding when we do a P3 initiative or when we don’t do a P3 initiative. But more importantly, what are the economic and strategic advantages for us to get into this business. Given the fact that we are entering close to our debt wall, we do not have the luxury of other jurisdictions to get in this business, and so I would probably like the Minister to comment on that as well.
Finally, Mr. Chair, with your indulgence, I’d like to spend just a second to talk about the planes that aren’t on the list today, and I know these are more expensive planes, but given the climate that we live in here and given the fact that we faced literally the most vicious fire season in the history of the Northwest Territories, the 415 aircraft is really the plane of choice when you look at it. This is the industry benchmark in amphibious aircraft, and really, if you talk to anyone in the industry and you read any brochure, you read any factual sheet in the fire suppression world, the 415s are the backbone of the firefighting missions around the world. I’m not saying that I want to spend a lot of money on them, because we don’t have the luxury. But it would be nice to hear whether or if we indeed do not have the money for a 415 plan of action, what is the strategy for potentially looking at a private company, private ownership where we’re leasing a 415 to deal with literally a very problematic climate and we’re dealing with large distances and, as I said, without putting a lot of technical issues on the floor, we are hampered by design specifically and technically with an 802 fleet.
I know I was kind of a little bit on both sides of the equation here, and if need be, I can go more into detail, but it was more of the general comment of concern. I believe the 802 is a solid plane. I want to rest assured and let the people know this is a solid plane. It might be, in my humble opinion, a bit too light duty for the type of fire and fire seasons that we could face in the near future.
Thank you, Mr. Dolynny. Minister Miltenberger.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I’ll go through the list and I apologize if I missed anything. To the issue of are the 802s up to the task, we’ve battle tested these planes now, not only us but other jurisdictions, but we’ve seen them firsthand in the Northwest Territories. It’s our third season, and they’ve handled everything that Mother Nature and forest fires could throw at them. They are nimble. They can operate in turn and maneuver very, very well. They are powerful. They have the distinct added advantage that they can go to shallow lakes that the 215s currently can’t. Whereas a 215 may have to trundle off 20 minutes down the way or half an hour down the way, there are many, many times when the 802s are already back in action picking up water, hitting the fires, picking up water, hitting the fires, because they have that capacity to operate in shallower lakes.
The issue of VFR versus…instrument flight rating versus visual flight rules, sorry, it’s very rarely that it has ever been an issue. Of course, one of the key factors is the good fortune, I suppose, that during fire season we have just about 24-hour daylight, so it very seldom gets dark, and if, in fact, the visibility is bad enough because of the smoke, then nobody flies because of the risk. I’ll point people back to the ‘70s, I think it was, in Smith, as a matter of fact, where we had a collision in mid-air of water bombers and there were about four people killed, and they were in circumstances where there was almost no visibility, so it’s very problematic.
The issue of private ownership versus public ownership, we’ve laid it out for committee. The dollars, the math is very clear that in the North if we were going to look at using northern business and we wanted the northern business to pick up the $30 million and bill us back that we would pay a premium in the millions of dollars over the life of a contract so that they can, in fact, the private owner could go to the bank and get money knowing that they have a 10-year contract and over that 10 years we would have to pay back, for example, the $30 million. We demonstrated, we showed that we’d save literally millions of dollars in interest payments by us buying the planes and then putting it out as we do now, by tender or contract, to maintain and operate the aircraft without the burden of having to pay the interest payments and the paydown in the principal cost to the airlines of the airplanes. So we were of the opinion if by that approach, then every northern business that’s up here that can bid would be in a position to bid and not disqualified because it had to carry the burden of $30 million costs as part of the contact that would disqualify potentially a lot of northern participants.
If you’re going to buy a new 415, it would cost you $40 million. I don’t disagree with the Member that if money was no object we might have two 415s and four Air Tractors or some other configuration, but the reality is we need to look at the economics and how do we best protect the interest of the people of the Northwest Territories in a way that’s affordable. We believe, after extensive work, that the 802s are the best way forward and then if we have greater needs, we look at using the capacity under our MARS agreements, our mutual aid agreements with all the other jurisdictions, to bring in other aircraft as required.
In terms of the land-based aircraft that we have, for example, we’ve been leasing aircraft, as the Member suggested, because the northern aircraft haven’t been available. So the DC-6 Electras, which are a critical land-based component, we have two built into the contract. We’ve been making arrangements to try to lease those from the South until we can get our own northern land-based planes operational and that is a very expensive proposition, but those are critical missing pieces at this point from our northern arsenal.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I believe I’ve touched on most of the issues. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Committee, we’ll have general comments for Environment and Natural Resources. Next on my list I have Mrs. Groenewegen.
