Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. As has been said, the big issue on the capital acquisition for the Department of ENR is these 802s. It’s difficult to talk about them in great detail because, of course, it’s a very technical topic and one that’s very specialized. I’m sure the department has done a fair amount of research into the 802s and the suitability of them for the type of work that we seemingly need to do every year here in the Northwest Territories in fighting fires. I don’t dispute that it is time to add to what we have available here to fight fires. We hope we don’t get future years like we had this past year, but it’s not something that’s out of the realm of possibility.
I think that the Standing Committee on Economic Development and Infrastructure has spent a great deal of time talking with the department about all the pros and cons and has covered this topic very thoroughly and, as Mr. Bouchard indicated earlier, there’s been a lot of testing and a lot of trial that’s already been done with these aircraft. So, I don’t think that I have an issue with the acquisition. I’m supporting the acquisition of these aircraft with the model that is proposed by the department of the GNWT to own them and to contract for the operations and maintenance of them.
However, I do have some concerns about the department’s eventual plans to dispose of the 215s and I think that the 215s and the 802s have very, very different capacities and different roles that they could play depending on the location of the fire, the size of the fire and I know it all comes down to a matter of money. I don’t think that the 215s are probably necessarily, on any given day, worth a lot of money on the open market and I don’t know why we wouldn’t want to, if we could, and if we could afford it, have the option of using the 215s where it’s appropriate, even if they were on standby and the 802s were the main aircraft we would use to fight fire. But I’m sure the Minister will have some good reasoning for that and I guess that I’d like to hear what that is. Thank you.
Thank you, Mrs. Groenewegen. Minister Miltenberger.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Like every other arm of government, we are very aware of the fiscal constraints that we operate under. When we looked and we did years of work mainly with Meyers Norris Penny, looking at all the planes and it came down to also having the hat of the Finance Minister on, and as I was looking at this, what can we come forward in good conscience to tell the Legislature to make the case of what is the best way forward. The discussion was very quickly that the 802s could meet our needs at a fraction of the cost of getting four 215s or four 415s, three times, four times more for a plane that has a season that’s three months, four months long and what would meet our interests and what would we afford, what could save us money if we bought them, what’s easier on gas and what is able to do the work.
So we know that we’ll be able to keep the fleet of 802s in the air for less than what we’re currently paying to keep the 215s in the air. If we were going to pay, and it comes down to money, if we’re going to pay for the 802s and keep the 415s operational, flight ready, forest firefighting ready, then it would be if not the $4 million, it would be probably well over $2 million to $3 million a year that we’d have to add to our base budget.
Back to the issue of if the 802s are overextended as they would have been this year, or the 215s were this year, then we would be invoking the clauses in the MARS Agreement with the other jurisdictions and we would look at bringing in equipment and planes like we did from BC, Alberta, Alaska, Ontario, Nova Scotia, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, wherever they were available.
I guess the other thing to keep in mind, as well, the 802s, if we have a mild fire season, we would be able to put to use wherever they’re requested. Right now the 215s that we have in operation for us are so old and so behind the times in terms of liability and risk management that we can’t export them because the other jurisdictions do not want to have the issue of things that may go wrong, plus the access to avgas. So they’re not exportable for us, to us in Canada. So they’re basically stuck here, so standby would be a very expensive proposition. Thank you.
Thank you. When the Minister says that it would cost $2 million to $3 million to keep them on standby, that doesn’t seem like a very big price to pay for their usefulness. I mean, it has been what has served the Northwest Territories all these years. That doesn’t seem to be a very big price to pay in light of the almost estimated $60 million that it cost to fight fire this year, which was an extraordinary year, no doubt, but $2 million or $3 million to have this capacity and this ability at our disposal doesn’t seem like that much in view of the recent fire season.
So, if we’re not going to retain the 215s after 2017, well, maybe it is too early to say what we would do with them. Let me ask the Minister if he’s aware of any other type of use within the realm of government responsibility that the 215s could be outfitted or used for. Thank you
Just a comment first about the 215s. They have had a long and honourable history in protecting the interests of the people of the Northwest Territories. If they were a horse, we would be talking about…
---Interjection
I was going to suggest being put out to pasture. They are over 60 years old. Being over 60, I can tell you, keeping up with the guys in their twenties is very, very tough, if not downright impossible, to be completely frank, in the confines of this Assembly, just amongst ourselves.
Are there other uses for the 215s? There could be. The Member and I have talked a bit about this and I have heard this from the owner of Buffalo Airways, his vision of a fleet of pollution-fighting aircraft that could respond to spills and be there if they are needed. In fact, there were discussions with ENR at one point, but there never was a formal proposal put forward. That would be an opportunity for a private sector person if they were interested, I would suggest, to look at getting these very reasonably priced, when they come up for sale, aircraft, especially if they have a bunch of parts of their own that they could keep them in the air and convert to that type of function where they could, in fact, have a lease arrangement with oil companies or whoever would require that type of backup for maybe their environmental licence or their project licence, especially if it’s located on bodies of water.
If you’re getting into the ocean area, then you are looking at, of course, a different jurisdiction. But the flight time of both the 802s and the 215s is about four hours and if you are going to be out in large bodies of water, you have to be very cognizant always about… If you only have four hours of fuel, you don’t want to go out two hours and fifteen minutes because on the way back you could be gliding the last fifteen minutes, hopefully back to land. So, there are lots of things to look at, but I think there are some options out there. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Committee, we are on general comments for Environment and Natural Resources. Mr. Yakeleya.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to weigh in, also, to the 802s, the fleets. It looks like we are getting some brand new mustangs, or stallions at least. The Minister is talking about horses and the old Clydesdales will be put to rest, the old work horses.
I wanted to follow up with Mr. Dolynny’s observation about the government getting into the aviation business. Certainly, when you have these new fleets coming in, there is going to be spin-offs as to the hangars, having staff who are seasonal. These aircraft are going to be situated in a community in the Northwest Territories and there is going to be crews and office space and hangars there and a whole bunch of other things to maintain a fleet of aircraft. That’s something I wanted to ask the Minister: what use, after the season, are these fleets are going to be used.
I also wanted to ask about the effectiveness of these fleets versus the ones that we had. Given that in the past couple of years we cut fire suppression crews in our communities and we certainly need a balance to have people on the ground fighting the fires along with some air support, and I would like to see that we reinvest into the communities that were cut from the fire suppression crews in our smaller communities around the North, even to how much are we going to rely on the air bombers.
In the Northwest Territories, in the southern part here, I would like to have a review as to where the fires were fought and were these fires strictly bomber use all the time. Down south fighting fire is different than fighting fire in the Sahtu where there are no all-weather roads. Some of the fires were far away, yet they were fought. The use of heavy equipment, such as Caterpillars, there were lots of lines cut. How many hours were used on Caterpillars, and are those going to be reclamation areas where you put the cat in for the firebreak? Even for our tour operators, is there something in the infrastructure or within government that if a tourist operator is going to renew their licence, is there a FireSmart type of licence for them to give to the department, because that’s infrastructure, the hoses that go to these tourist operators. Before they get their licence, there should be some strategic planning there as to what happens if they have a fire season like last year in the southern part of the Northwest Territories.
I have a lot of issues around there, even with the infrastructure on having these FireSmart kits. There are a lot of questions for me coming from the Sahtu on these bombers, Caterpillar operators, cabin owners, values at risk, even the areas that could be back-burned saving cabins in the area, things like that.
The fleets themselves, are they effective, are they going to be efficient? I hear the Minister talking about the avgas. There was some shortage at the airports in Inuvik and Norman Wells. These are now different type of flights in regards to will they have the operational capability, say, to be staged in Norman Wells or Inuvik, if there is a situation that calls for them? Do we balance that with fire suppression crews that are in the Sahtu? What will it cost to have the fire crews in operation and is there a different type of standards for fighting fire in the Northwest Territories?
Down here we see almost every fire. They are far away but they are fought and the water bombers are at them. But last year in the Sahtu, we had to watch them. So, are there different standards of fighting fire? I can see that. That’s one of my concerns.
The other one is that I am happy to see in the budget that Deline is going to get some support in the region.
My last concern is the promise by one of the elders in Fort Good Hope. I talked about a regional laboratory to test our fish and our water. I know the Minister, earlier in the Assembly, talked about monitoring the water in the Sahtu and doing some baseline studies. What the elder is really talking about is having a laboratory where we take samples of the fish, caribou, moose, beaver, the lynx, the muskrats and check for them to see if it’s okay to eat.
I see his point that with the amount of water that Imperial Oil licence is asking for over the next 10 years is not in the millions but it’s in the billions of litres that’s going to be put back into the Mackenzie River. The elders in Fort Good Hope are very concerned over the years of accumulated effects of Imperial Oil putting back that water into the Mackenzie that flows down to Fort Good Hope where they get their water from. The elder was talking about over the years, if that’s the case, then shouldn’t the federal government or Imperial Oil be assuring us that it’s okay to drink, number one, and if the food that they get from the Mackenzie River is okay to eat. Maybe consider it a laboratory where they can sample animals at random so they could tell the people, your food is still okay, the water is still okay. We don’t really know the true nature of the damage in BC or Alberta or the production of development that flows into the Mackenzie River over time. That’s what the elder is asking for, is a proper laboratory in the Sahtu region to ensure that their food and their water is going to be good in the years from now to 20 years. That’s what he was requesting.
Can I say that I’ve wanted to tell the Minister that with the Deline district in the community, the Minister has seen, along with his staff, the condition that the wildlife officers work in and it’s similar to the one in Colville Lake? They have a small little cabin there. It’s a cozy little cabin but I think it needs to be looked at and considered, the same as in Fort Good Hope. They’ve taken some pictures – I’m pretty sure I gave them to Mr. Miltenberger – as to the condition of the wildlife officers working in these extreme conditions up in the Sahtu.
Those are my concerns. The big one, along with my other colleagues, is asking about the fleets that you’re asking us to approve a budget for millions of dollars, and it certainly is a concern to see if we can look at some areas that would satisfy our people in the Sahtu. Is it not possible to have a private contractor look at these fleets, or is it more beneficial for us to get into the aviation business and take on that responsibility? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Minister Miltenberger.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I don’t think any jurisdiction leaves firefighting up to the private sector when it comes to deploying the air resources, land resources, the heavy equipment. What we have right now is a contract with a private contractor to manage and operate the 215s, for example, and we have a contract for some land-based. That equipment becomes available to the Government of the Northwest Territories for us to deploy where it’s needed. So they are there and they are sent to where they’re needed, same as our fire crews that we have with the communities and our own fire crews are deployed where they’re needed and on an as required basis.
Fighting fire is like a military campaign. There are a lot of variables. There’s the fire, there’s the terrain, there’s the wind, there’s any precipitation. Is there wet ground nearby? Are there cutlines? What do you need to do to back burn? There are all those things that the Member talked about. It’s very, very fast moving, so you need a type of command and control that is very nimble and versatile, but still have the big picture, and planes are a critical part of that.
We need to ensure that our folks on the ground, if they had no aircraft, they would be extremely disadvantaged. Not only disadvantaged, I would say that they would be at risk because they wouldn’t have air support to come in to help them where they may be caught or there may be circumstances that they can’t control just by on the ground.
When we talk air services, of course, we also spend a lot of money on rotary wing helicopters and those are privately owned and they are costing thousands of dollars an hour, $3,000 or $4,000 an hour depending on the size of the helicopter. We try to make sure that we spare no expense when it comes to protecting the interests of Northerners and making sure that our folks on the ground, the thin line of really hard work on firefighters, men and women, that they have all the backup they need, so they can in fact be like the infantry and the Air Force and then the armored division, which would be the heavy equipment. They all play their critical roles to win a battle.
I think if you look at Kakisa and those other places, it was a tremendous job that they will probably study that fire to see now as a textbook example of how you fight fires. What happens if a community FireSmarts themselves, which Kakisa did, what role that played in protecting their own community.
The Member asked if there are different levels of protection depending if you’re in the north or in the south. I would tell you unequivocally that there’s not. I will tell you that when a community is threatened, it doesn’t matter if it’s Inuvik, Tulita, Deline, Kakisa, Yellowknife or Fort Smith, we pull out all the stops. We spare no expense and we bring our forces and every other place that we can beg, borrow or steal air support and ground support to come in, incident commanders, firefighters, planes, to assist us. The Member can well remember not that long ago in his community that some of them were threatened. We look at moving people. We evacuate. We do everything we need to make sure that we protect Northerners.
Regardless of where you are, people should know and sleep with comfort at night knowing that if they were in need, the forest fire division will be there and will be there like the cavalry. We will be there with everything we have to protect them.
But we are a huge territory. We had over 300, almost 400 fires. We fought about 150 or so, 130 of them, so it was physically impossible with 3.3 million square hectares under fire to fight all the fires. There are those in the hinterland and those that are near values at risk that were allowed to burn because we had to pay attention to those values that were most imminently at risk.
We had one fire crew in the Member’s riding that was disbanded at the request of the group in Norman Wells, but we’ve trained an additional, I think, 400 firefighters last summer to fill in the gaps. This is something that we’re very, very committed to. The 802s will be a critical part of that going forward. That is some of us more long-in-the-tooth folks going out to pasture maybe, if we don’t run again, so too the 215s’ time is reaching the same point in the cycle and there’s a newer, younger generation of equipment there to make the life of the firefighters safer and more productive.
As it comes to the issue of water monitoring, we are ramping up, as the Member knows. I rattled off all the monitoring stations. The issue of a lab to test and do the tests on the fish and random tests on wildlife, we don’t have that physical capacity yet. We are working on doing some of it. We sent out samples. So the Member’s request is not unreasonable as we move forward here into the future.
In regard to office space, specifically, I will mention Deline. That the community is very interested, as the Member well knows, in a combined pooling of resources with ENR and Public Works and Housing, and I think the community government, to see if we can build a common compound that would have work space, garage space, office space, and allow us to put all of our scarce capital dollars together to build one energy-efficient, coordinated, integrated facility. We are seriously looking at that. I’ll ask the deputy to speak a bit further to the other office space in Colville and Fort Good Hope and maybe fill in any of the other gaps that I may have missed.
Thank you, Minister Miltenberger. Deputy Minister Campbell.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just to add to Colville and Fort Good Hope for office space, I know Fort Good Hope in particular is on our list for the following year; however, for Colville, though, I’ll have to check into that facility there. I am aware and have visited that smaller little office in the centre of town. Their nice little place, no doubt, but going forward, again, I’m not aware of it at this point and I can look into that.
Just on fighting fires in the Northwest Territories, the Minister did identify there is very little difference here except, of course, we’re all aware of the access issues and where there are areas where the road system is in and it’s easier access, yes, we do take advantage of other equipment and we did use a substantial amount of heavy equipment this past summer in the southern part of the Northwest Territories. Of course, with that is a lot of reclamation work. We’re underway with the reclamation work and my understanding is that we’re very close here to completing working with the Lands department and completing the reclamation work and some of the work of the heavy equipment.
Also, I just want to point out on the command system and all the different angles and support and the processes that are underway, a lot of times a lot of people are not clear that eventually the people that put out the fires or when we call a fire out or under control that it’s our firefighters and as result of their work. I know there’s that misconception that’s out there that the tankers put our fires out. Well, they’re retardant aircraft. They retard the growth of the fires, and to get control and put the fires out it’s definitely our fire crews that do that.
On the capacity, we do have where we had 29 crews, one community felt that they couldn’t fulfill their contract, so we have 28 fire crews, but part of the review this year that we’re undertaking now is to assess whether that amount of crews or that configuration of five-man crews is the right mix here for initial attack and fire suppression, especially in light of the extreme season we had and we definitely have to look at that.
Thank you, deputy minister. Committee, we’re on general comments for Environment and Natural Resources. Committee agrees we’ll go to detail?
Agreed.
We’re on page 17, Environment and Natural Resources. I’ll defer until we consider all the detail. Page 18, Environment and Natural Resources, conservation assessment and monitoring, infrastructure and investment, $1.498 million.
Agreed.
Page 22, forest management, infrastructure investment, $8.720 million. Mr. Dolynny.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just a couple of questions I have with respect to the air tanker fleet again. Because it is on this page, I want to ask a little bit more specific in detail how does the department plan to amortize this equipment when it indeed comes into our fleet. I know this year, I think there’s a smaller amount that’s going into the capital budget, and I know at the end I think the Minister did throw a number around of $30 million. How will that $30 million be amortized on our books as we deal with public accounts?
Thank you, Mr. Dolynny. Mr. Mawdsley.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The schedule of the purchase of the aircraft is there will be a down payment paid in April 2015 and then there will be progress payments over the next two years until April 2017 when the aircraft will be finally delivered. The cost of the aircraft will be amortized under the government’s financial practices and procedures over the life of the aircraft. The projected amortization is at least 20 years. I trust that answers your question, sir.
Thank you, Mr. Mawdsley. Mr. Dolynny.
The reason why I asked that question is because, according to our policy, I believe airplane or air fleet is not indicated, I believe, in our Financial Administration Act, and so I needed to know clarity given best practices in public accounting standards. We can ask that question when we get to Public Accounts, but I’ll need to know that number specifically when we get there.
With respect to the fleet itself, when the fleet does arrive in the Northwest Territories, do we have any indication where this fleet will be located primarily from an operational base standpoint?
Thank you, Mr. Dolynny. Minister Miltenberger.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There is going to be the forest management programs in Fort Smith. The tender to operate and maintain will be let. In all probability, it will be one of the large operators in Yellowknife. We will build in the requirements for storage during fire season. As with the 215s, they are stationed as on an as anticipated need basis, some in Yellowknife, some in Smith, Hay River, Inuvik, Norman Wells, depending on where the project need is or if there are some active fires there, and that is always changing. The Members will remember over the years flying out of Yellowknife, you’d see the fleet parked on one of the aprons here covered in snow for eight months of the year. I’ll ask the deputy to talk a bit about what we anticipate in terms of the new planes whether we’re going to require covered storage. I’ll ask the deputy to respond.
Thank you, Minister Miltenberger. Deputy Minister Campbell.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. As the Minister points out, going forward with these new aircraft, that will be a requirement in the contract for storage. We believe by going to an O and M contract that there will be a number of northern companies that would be interested and a number of northern companies that will have the capacity to address not just the O and M with their facilities but the storage as well.
Thank you, Mr. Campbell. Mr. Dolynny.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the deputy minister responding, but from that response I have a hard time figuring out exactly where these planes will be located. We heard Fort Smith at the Fire Centre. We’ve heard maybe Yellowknife. We’ve heard many other bases throughout the Northwest Territories. There was some mention that this would possibly go to an operator base, whether or not it would be RFP’d or not I didn’t quite hear that and that there would be an operations and maintenance contract associated with that, again not knowing if this would be an RFP type scenario. So I might want to get clarity with that. But in addition to that I’d probably like to ask, we know that the primary manufacturer, I believe it’s Conair, and Conair, by virtue, will control the parts and the availability of parts and possibly some of the proprietary rights around these new 802s. What security or reassurance do we have that potential people, organizations or companies will have that if we do go down this route of purchasing these 802s that Conair will play nice in the sandbox, so to speak, and work with northern contractors? What reassurances do we have that this will indeed transpire?
Again, if we can get some clarity as to this future company or companies that would be involved with the O and M, the location of fleet. Is this indeed something that will be an RFP, or has the Minister or department predetermined where these planes are going to be stationed once they do arrive in the Northwest Territories? Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Dolynny. Minister Miltenberger.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. At the start of the season, the practice has been the 215s, and we would anticipate following with 802s, that you’d have right now two to start the season. Two of the 215s are stationed in Yellowknife, and the other two are on the ground in the South Slave at the base in Fort Smith. Then from there they’re deployed as required. Conair is not the manufacturer; they’re the Canadian supplier for Air Tractor. The planes are manufactured in Texas I believe. We have a letter of commitment and we’ve got that point clarified, at the request of committee, that if we proceed with the purchase, Conair will sell us the planes and there’s no strings or caveats on them getting the contract or not, getting us parts, unless we do business with them or anything of that nature, and that letter was shared with committee. Thank you.
Thank you. So, again, I appreciate the Minister mentioning a letter. I wish I could have, but unfortunately, I’m under the convention I’m not allowed to talk about correspondence that committee receives. So I’m glad that this letter has now been mentioned by the Minister.
The letter in question did give some reassurance and I’ll underline that word that Conair would work with any northern contractor, but again, what safeguards do northern contractors have or any specific caveat that would reassure business owners here that Conair will work in conjunction with northern providers to provide the operations and maintenance contract in its wholesome format? Thank you.
Thank you. I guess there are a couple things. There is the portrayal of a deep and abiding suspicion of the motives of Conair. They’re in a business and one of their functions is that they’re the supplier of an aircraft, and the only supplier. They’ve told us in writing that in fact there are no caveats, that we can expect full support, and if we want more of their services, they’d be happy to have those discussions, but it’s not contingent upon us getting the planes, that they won’t sell us the planes unless they’re given all these other considerations. They pretty clearly and categorically say that, and I’ve talked to the president and the vice-president myself.
Now, we also have a letter here from Air Tractor itself in Texas where they say that Conair has been their representative for many years and has established themselves as one of our reliable customer service-oriented dealers and we are sure that they will serve you well and that they are the exclusive dealer for Air Tractor in Canada. So we believe we have the assurances that we need. I suggest we don’t write to Ford Patel that they give us this kind of comfort or any other major supplier of equipment, but we have it and we are confident that it gives us all the protection that we need. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister Miltenberger. Next on my list is Mrs. Groenewegen.
Mr. Chairman, I would like to move that we report progress.
---Carried
Good evening. Can I have the report of Committee of the Whole, Mr. Bouchard?
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Your committee has been considering Tabled Document 115-17(5), Northwest Territories Capital Estimates 2015-2016, and would like to report progress. Mr. Speaker, I move that the report of Committee of the Whole be concurred with. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Bouchard. Do I have a seconder to the motion? Mr. Dolynny.
---Carried
Mr. Speaker, there will be a meeting of the Priorities and Planning committee at adjournment today.
Orders Of The Day For Tuesday, October 28, 2014, At 1:30 p.m.:
Thank you, Mr. Clerk. Accordingly, this House stands adjourned until Tuesday, October 28th, at 1:30 p.m.
---ADJOURNMENT
The House adjourned at 5:56 p.m.
