Detail.
Does committee agree we can proceed with detail?
Agreed.
Thank you, committee. I just want to remind folks that all items under the NWT Housing Corporation are information items only, so we’ll just be asking questions. With that, I’ll get committee to turn to page 393 in your main estimates book. NWT Housing Corporation, financial summary information, information item. Any questions? Mr. Yakeleya.
Just listening to the responses and to the comments of the Members, I want to ask the Minister and staff that are compiling data, a very interesting note here I made, the NWT Housing Corporation is processing electricity bills, you said about 30,000. Are we going to get some of that data to know what we’re spending in the Sahtu as a result of the fuel, because that’s a big indicator of operation of the units and also for the electricity, water and the sewer. I guess I’m trying to get at a point where the philosophy of the Housing Corporation is going to state clearly that some of this responsibility is to go to the tenants. You know, we can go to communities and you will see some units that at minus 44 or 45 they have their upstairs bedroom windows open and I’ll say, well, what’s going on, it’s so hot upstairs but it’s cold downstairs. I’d say if we were private homeowners, you would have everything bundled up to be nice and warm and conserve as much heat as possible.
Until there’s a way that you’re going to put wood pellets as a source of heat in those units, diesel is there to stay and we are covering, in the public housing units, the cost. The Minister has put in some other alternative energy use in the small communities and that’s the matter of the fact. So I guess I’m looking for some details. You know, when you put somebody in a house, you have to let them know that this is what the Government of the Northwest Territories is covering for you to stay there.
You know, in this House the Minister talked about the mid-life on the retrofits and I’m glad and I also want to know how many retrofits have come into the Sahtu that age and it’s time to reno, shake them up and get them nice and new again so that these units will be up to par.
As I walk around the communities, I know some of the units that are still boarded up, some need to be worked on and some of the equipment and materials should be in the Sahtu now, taking advantage of the winter road, you know, and I would really stress the importance of the barging system. It has to happen with barging that it gets there in June, not later, and I’m asking the Minister for this type of information so that we could somehow, from our regional office to the local housing authorities, the tenants get into the units that when there is damage to the units this is what it’s costing us as taxpayers to fix this house up and that’s what we need to get to them.
In the olden days, you know, I think that type of teaching was happening. Somehow we missed it. Somehow some of these units are almost like an entitlement to the social housing and we as taxpayers cover the cost. You know, I understand the issue of homelessness has been something that we’re going to throw lots of money in.
A long time ago, in the ‘60s and ‘70s, there was no issue of homelessness in the Northwest Territories. Now we’re paying lots of money for homelessness. I wonder what’s going on. You look at the core needs in our small communities, there are five, six, eight, 10 people living in one house. It’s still happening today. With all the people living in our small communities, with overcrowding comes health issues, social issues and all kinds of other issues that are compounded by this issue here. So I guess I’m looking for that kind of data from the Minister and from the staff and saying let’s put the real crux of these types of costs on the table and say these are the factors. If I was to walk around in Sahtu communities and look at the housing units, you know, I would be able to do that. I’m very concerned that the Minister is saying that from the housing needs. Is that the true indicator? I’m not sure, so I don’t know what the Minister means by that. We do the Housing Corp needs or the surveying and these are the numbers, the percentage, this is what it’s saying and I just took note of that. I’m not too sure what he means by that, because there are some real issues in our small communities with overcrowding, freezing pipes and sewer pipes.
Mr. Minister, some of the units, I hear it right from the local housing authorities that people are putting grease and stuff down the sinks and they’re freezing up. But even that’s simple education. I’m hearing from the tenants and also from the people who are working at housing and saying they shouldn’t be putting the grease and the macaroni and hamburgers down because it freezes up and pretty soon they’re complaining to me and I’m running to the office of the housing here. Something like preventative measures in our small units, so things like that.
People who are in our units that, you know, as taxpayers we’re paying for these utility costs without any type of consequence to the young tenants. I guess I’m looking at some responsibilities. Where do we draw the line? Because the government is not giving us any more money, actually they’re decreasing the funding and now we’re dealing with some issues here in Yellowknife, such as housing. So lots of money is going to homeless. Is that taking away from other needs of the community because now we have to deal with the housing of the homeless people in Yellowknife?
The president rattled off a lot of money going into this capital city here. Lots of money, and I’d appreciate the Minister’s willingness and flexibility to look at those four small communities and hoping that they’d get the support to have this in their small communities. There are two right now I know and, as he said, there are two more, so I might have to get on the phone and get cracking here to see that that will happen in our region.
Okay, I’ll leave shortly. I just want to finish this.
I just want to know about the data, they’re important indicators. We really need to know, as a government, what it’s costing us in subsidies that we’re covering those units here. There are opportunities in the future, like they have in Yellowknife. We have corporations that own real estate and I think some of them would love to have one or two of their tenants that are supported by Education, Culture and Employment to be paid by Housing. There are a couple of empty units that we have in our communities that we would love to have some of the Education, Culture and Employment tenants move in there that the Housing could cover some of the costs.
I’m going to conclude at that, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. Mr. McLeod.
Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair. Just very quickly, homelessness is an issue that’s facing all departments, I think, within this government, and it’s not just because they don’t have a home, there are many other reasons and we all need to do our part to deal with it. So as the Housing Corp, we do what we can to help deal with it and the other departments do what they can.
I like the Member’s point, though, and it’s something that we tried to do, is make the tenants aware of what it’s costing on that unit. I think it used to be right on their receipt, I believe, even on their power. A couple of years ago we increased the user pay part of the power from I think it was six to nine cents. So we were hoping the consumption would come down. I mean…(inaudible)…you could be in one community where you could have a house that was just recently renovated, so the energy you’re using there is obviously going to be a little less than if you’re next door and you’re waiting to get your unit renovated. So there’s a bit of a difference there. But we do make them aware. You know, somebody could be paying $90 a month, depending on what community they live in, $90 all in, but it’s costing us $2,500 a month to maintain that unit and we need to make them aware of that, that they’re being subsidized $2,410 a month.
I think clients are becoming more aware of what it’s costing to maintain that unit. I think they’re also becoming more aware of the fact that the Housing Corp is serious about rent collection and I believe they’re stepping up. It has been the mindset for too long that, well, I’m not going to pay my rent, I can run up $50,000 in arrears and nothing is going to happen, but that has changed. So we’ll continue to work on that. There’s tenant damage for exactly what the Member was talking about. There could be tenant damage charges for that. We continue to deal with that, but the Member’s point is well taken that we need to make them aware of what it’s costing the taxpayers to have them in a particular unit, so we’ll continue to do that.
I think I touched on most of the other issues that the Member had raised. If I didn’t, Mr. Yakeleya, I apologize.
Thank you, Minister McLeod. Committee, we are on page 393. I’d ask committee if you are going to be asking questions regarding detail on the following activities and information items, if you please specify which line entry, whether it’s revenue or expenditure program detail. With that, committee, NWT Housing Corporation, financial summary information, information item. Any questions? Mr. Hawkins.
Thanks, Mr. Chairman. It’s my understanding that in Deninu K’ue the community has an eight-plex and I was curious as to what’s happening with it. It has been sitting there for years and I want to hear what the plan is, either to replace or not. It has been empty for a number of years. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Minister McLeod. With that, we’ll go to Mr. Stewart.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I believe the Member is talking about the eight-plex in Fort Resolution. There were some land issues that we had to straighten out to be able to get the proper land tenure there. We are prepared to sell that unit off, if there are interested parties in that. However, there has also been interest expressed recently to use that property for other purposes within the community that we’ve heard from the community leadership. I think Public Works and Services is looking at that request to see if it’s appropriate for what they would like to use, so we’ll hold off selling it until we hear from Public Works whether they have a use for the property and if they don’t, then we’ll go ahead and put that out for sale and somebody can hopefully use that unit for rentals within the community. Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Stewart. Mr. Hawkins.
Thank you. How long has it been on the operational side of the ledger? In other words, sitting there empty.
Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Stewart. Sorry. We’ll go to Minister McLeod.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. It has been about three years, but we’ll confirm that information and relay that on to the Members. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister McLeod. Mr. Hawkins.
In speaking to the chief of the community, of course not recently, has the Housing Corp done an assessment as to what it would require to be up and running as a viable unit for housing people in the community?
Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Stewart.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I know we have done a technical assessment of the building in the past. I don’t have the information right in front of me, but we did look at what would be required to get it back operational and that’s something we would consider in setting the purchase price. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
What’s the housing core need in the community of Fort Res?
I believe the 2014 result was 24.6 percent of the dwellings were in core need.
Noting that it’s 24.6 in core need, what have we done? Does this not move the core need higher if this eight-plex is not replaced back into the operational pool? Thank you.
The unit was empty at the time, I believe, of the needs survey. I would point out, though, that between 2009 and 2014 the core need in Fort Resolution in 2009 was 50 percent of dwellings and in 2014 it was 24.6 percent of dwellings. So I think there has been a fair amount of progress in that community in terms of addressing core need.
I would ask how many people are in the community of Fort Res needing housing. In other words, we have housing authorities all around the Northwest Territories and people on waiting lists. If the Housing Corporation is unable to supply the specific number, would it be safe to guess that there would be at least eight people looking for housing in that community? Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Minister McLeod.
We’ve got 12 on the waiting list.
So if we have 12 on the list, it would be safe to say that if we open up that particular unit once again, we would take off two-thirds of the waiting list. Is that correct?
Mr. Chair, the unit needs a considerable amount of work and there has been interest in parties wanting to purchase that unit, so we’re exploring that right now. Thank you.
Mr. Chairman, what does “financially” mean in financial terms when the Minister uses the word “considerable”? I’m trying to put a dollar amount to it.
Mr. Chair, the president has committed to providing that information. We don’t have the numbers offhand, but we will provide the information to the Members. Thank you.
I believe in Yellowknife they were talking about expending dollars so they could expand programs through housing to stabilize rents, to stabilize affordability. Has there been a cost-benefit analysis to make the determination that it’s cheaper to sell the unit in case someone else wants to rent them or own the unit, which we own already, and fix it up and work through our housing program for housing for people in need? Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Mr. Stewart
Thank you, Mr. Chair. The allocation of our public housing stock is obviously done at a community level. Fort Resolution has 75 units that you would expect to see in public housing. They currently have 75 units, excluding those eight that are being sold. So to put those back in the stock would change the community allocations and then we would have to find the extra resources to provide the subsidy there as well. They are at their allocation currently. Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Stewart. Mr. Hawkins.
We would not be in a position to reallocate that allocation?
That is certainly something we could do, but obviously there’s a fixed number of units that we have available in the Northwest Territories. So if we were to add eight in Fort Resolution, we would have to take eight away from another community and I suspect there would be concerns raised about taking eight units away from another community. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Stewart. Mr. Hawkins.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Has the Minister come to the Legislature to ask for additional money to repair those eight units to ensure we would increase the housing stock in that community with more than 10 percent by adding those…for those 12 individuals or families waiting to get housing?
Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Minister McLeod.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. We’ve been waiting, as I said before, to sell those units and they can repair those units. I think that was the original ask when those units became available. I think even they saw that it was going to be quite costly to renovate those units. Again, I committed to providing the actual numbers to the Members. Thank you.
Thank you. I do thank the Minister and certainly the corporation for supplying that information in advance of receiving it.
How long is the waiting list in that community? Once you’re on it, what is the average waiting time?
We have 12 on the waiting list. As for the length of time, we don’t have that information. We will contact the local housing authority and let them know there was a concern raised with the length of time with the waiting list and how long is the average time on the waiting list. Thank you.
In a perfect world the Housing Corporation decides to get away from this particular unit that has eight units, we sell it for whatever dollar amount, I have yet to find the value or balance. We sell it, which means the money goes into the GNWT coffers. Somebody now becomes the owner and someone decides they want to be in the rental business in the Northwest Territories in this community. I don’t want to ask a hypothetical question because we’d be ruled out of order, but I see it as a huge opening that someone would be coming to us asking for money and assistance in order to create a business opportunity in this community. Would this be giving them their money back to repair it? What type of program opportunities will happen in this community that will either deal with this or avoid this situation?
I’m sure the Minister sees what I’m saying. If we sell it to someone, we get the money for it and we just give them back the money to repair it, so they can rent it and we rent from them. We’re just finding a method to move wealth around, so the government not only pays but we pay double. Can this conceivably be the situation, or does the department have a plan and this isn’t the case?
Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. You did ask a hypothetical question as can it conceivably happen. Can you be more specific in your question, please? Thank you.
Yes, I know. It’s a tough one. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Does the Housing Corporation have a program that will pay for repairs of a particular multiplex unit such as this eight-plex unit that a person could apply for? That is not a hypothetical question. That’s a real question.
Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. Minister McLeod.
Mr. Chair, if someone came forward and said they wanted to buy the unit, then we would sell it to them. We also have a program we have been offering the last number of years now called the… It’s got a long title, but we give them $50,000, $25,000… It just went down as I was speaking. We give them $25,000 a door and it’s a program that we’ve offered for a while. It’s more designed for those who want to rent to professionals in the community. We’ve had some good uptake in a number of communities. I can provide a list to the Member of communities that have taken us up on this offer. We saw that as a way to try and assist with development in the community where they bought a unit and they needed some assistance in renovating the unit and we were able to provide some assistance. They, in turn, would become the landlord. They would rent it to individuals in town, professionals. If they rented, they would not rent it back to us. We wouldn’t rent it off them unless there was some type of program that was offered for that. There is a program that exists and we have helped out a number of communities and we will p rovide the list. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister McLeod. Committee, we are on page 393, NWT Housing Corporation, Mr. Hawkins.
I’m not going to need 10 minutes. I just want to make a point, which is $25,000 a door could be $200,000. I would just see the government sell the unit and then pay for its full repairs and then rent it back in some form or fashion. Anyway, I just wanted to make sure I said that, eight doors times $25,000, $200,000. Who knows what they are going to sell it for or buy it back or pay? I would just hate to see that situation. I would rather just pay to fix the darn thing, house the families and make sure they are up on their own and find a way to pay for it. Come to the Legislature. I would support money to go into the community for a resolution if it got more people in secure, safe housing. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. I didn’t hear a question there. I will take that as a comment. Committee, we are on page 393, Northwest Territories Housing Corporation, financial summary information, information item. Any questions?
