Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Member for Frame Lake, Ms. Bisaro.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questions today are for the Minister of Health and Social Services. I would like to follow up on my statement about the potential for getting the Avens expansion project off the ground this year, not in five or 10 years’ time.
I would like to first ask the Minister, I know that there has been a working group, a joint working group between the department and Avens that has been getting together and meeting and doing some work over the last number of months. I would like to ask the Minister, first off, for an update on where the work of the working group is at. Thank you.
Thank you, Ms. Bisaro. Minister of Health, Mr. Abernethy.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I and my Cabinet colleagues, as all Members in this House, are committed to the seniors of the Northwest Territories and obviously we want to make sure that our programs and services are meeting their needs. We as a department have Our Elders: Our Communities elders strategy which is focused on aging in place which ultimately does address or talk to the need for additional housing units or beds for seniors here in the Northwest Territories.
Avens is an incredibly important partner of ours and we have been working very closely with Avens to move their project forward. We have provided Avens with $25,000 to participate in the working groups to move this project along. We also helped, or rather, got out of the way of Avens so that they could move forward with the leveling of the ground on their campus. We do have a working group and as part of that working group there are two sub working groups and one of them is to continue to advance the partners to the GNWT’s capital planning process. Second is to participate in oversight of the financial model related to multi-year block funding and client rates outside of the current regulatory environment.
These aren’t simple questions. These require a significant amount of analysis and work. I know the Avens is frustrated with the progress, as are we. Recognizing that things haven’t been moving as fast as, say, Avens or even we had wished they would, the department is actually going to be contracting with a consultant to support the detailed financial regulatory as well as legal analysis necessary to provide an accurate and comprehensive range of funding options to help move this project forward. I expect that work to be done in October. Thank you.
Thanks to the Minister for the information. I have to reference his comment to Our Elders: Our Communities and that the focus of that is aging in place. That’s all well and good, but we all know that seniors reach a point where they cannot age in their own home, and that’s where we need to provide for them in a supportive living environment of some sort. So, I’m pleased to hear that there’s work going on. I’m dismayed to hear that it’s going to be October before there will be results, but I can appreciate that it’s complex.
So, I’d like to ask the Minister, in light of our changed financial landscape on the heels of the announcements from the federal government, has the Minister had an opportunity to consider our changed financial landscape, and if so, what new options does that provide for us in relation to this specific project? Thank you.
The Cabinet has regularly spoken about our current fiscal situation and the fiscal realities facing both the government of today and the government tomorrow.
In the Premier’s statement earlier today, he said this increase to our borrowing limit gives the Government of the Northwest Territories increased flexibility to invest in much needed infrastructure that will support the responsible development of the Northwest Territories economy to bring down the cost of living for communities and residents. We’ve also been incredibly clear that this money is not intended to be used for operations or maintenance, which would be a big problem.
The construction of a new facility, the new 30 beds for Avens, comes with an O and M price tag as well. For instance, when we moved forward about five years ago with the development of the dementia facility on the Avens compound as part of the capital planning process, it also came with a $3.9 million annual operation and maintenance cost to hire staff and provide those services. All that money is coming from the Government of the Northwest Territories. The current facility also has a $3.4 million price tag for the long-term care beds or the supported living beds that exist within the Avens compound, and construction of a new Avens facility would come with increased O and M costs as well.
So, we have to make sure that we do our due diligence, that we do our analysis and that those costs are understood and reasonable and that we can afford to continue to provide those services. The build is just one part of it. The ongoing maintenance is another part. Thank you.
Thanks to the Minister for that extensive response. I didn’t really hear an answer to my question about options based on our new financial situation. So, I would hope that that would be coming in the near future and I’d hope it would be a discussion that Cabinet would have in conjunction with Regular Members. It’s been promised, but we’ve seen no evidence of that yet.
So, I’d like to ask the Minister at this point, I appreciate that he’s doing everything he can, but we still have seniors who have nowhere to live. There was a situation that was highlighted in the paper last week, a senior who was being, he’s still there now, but a senior who is being removed from his current place at Avens and had nowhere to go to. So, until the Avens expansion is done, hopefully within a year, I’d like to know what the Minister is doing in the interim to accommodate seniors, like the one in the paper last week, who are in need of assisted or supported living housing. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
We’re doing a number of things. We’re doing things in partnership with the Seniors’ Society as well as our other health and social services authorities across the Northwest Territories.
The Member is aware that we have recently opened nine beds in Behchoko. We are in the middle of constructing nine more in Behchoko. There are 18 beds being constructed in Norman Wells. More beds were put into Fort Smith. This isn’t just a Yellowknife problem. We know that the Beaufort-Delta has experienced some real congestion there as well.
With the territorial admission process that all residents who wish to utilize our long-term care or, sorry, the supported living beds provided in our different facilities must go through. That process does an assessment on the needs, the risks and the factors, and we can put individuals in beds in different communities. There are some vacancies in Fort Smith that we have suggested are available, but we’re also moving forward with the construction of beds, which should help alleviate the burden in Yellowknife but it doesn’t take it away. I recognize that and we are working closely with Avens to make progress on the construction of more beds here in Yellowknife. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Thank you, Mr. Abernethy. Final, short supplementary, Ms. Bisaro.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Thanks to the Minister again. I appreciate that we are building more facilities. I think the Minister mentioned 27 beds. Our waitlist, unfortunately, is probably at least twice that and probably more like three times that. So, those beds will be welcomed, but we need to get more beds, and Avens is an opportunity to do that.
From the Minister, I’d like to know the earliest date that he can give me for Avens to move ahead and build their facility with government assistance. Thank you.
It would be impossible for me to give a hard and fast date. As the Member knows, we have a pretty thorough capital planning process, and for us to bring forward the project into the capital plan, we have to have a very, very thorough analysis articulated clearly, all O and M costs so that we can make decisions together as a Legislature.
I already mentioned the work that we’re doing in the department with our consultant, who is clearly going to be moving forward and doing the analysis needed to build that super strong business case that will allow us to move forward with this particular project. I’m hoping that we can have this work done in October, which will help inform the process. Hopefully, we can have something in the capital planning process in the near future. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Thank you, Mr. Abernethy. Member for Hay River North, Mr. Bouchard.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In a follow-up to my statement, I have some questions for the Minister responsible for the Power Corporation. Obviously, he has indicated the Power Corporation will be bidding on the Hay River franchise.
Can I get an evaluation of what the Power Corporation did in order to decide that they were going to bid? Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Thank you, Mr. Bouchard. The Minister of the Northwest Territories Power Corporation, Mr. Miltenberger.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A review was done of costs in Hay River, all the publicly available information that was there in regards to the services provided. Then they also did their own estimates of the cost of potentially running those systems of the Hay River franchise, as well, and put forward those numbers, and they were then brought forward and assessed by a Cabinet committee.
I’m just wondering if the Minister can indicate to me – obviously they have done an assessment and believe there can be a cost savings – have they done any assessment on what they expect that savings to be if they were to get it? Thank you.
There are two numbers that are clearly known. One is the current cost of power per kilowatt in Hay River, which is 31 cents and in Fort Smith and Fort Resolution it’s 21 cents. At this point, what I can say in the House is that it is anticipated that we would be able to significantly close that gap that now exists between the cost of power in Hay River and those in the neighbouring communities. Thank you.
Along the lines of the Power Corporation and NUL competing against each other, has the Power Corporation looked at other jurisdictions where there is a Crown corporation and privately owned companies that compete and operate amongst each other and other utilities? I know there are some power and some phones, but just to know how they operation and how do we operate here compared to other jurisdictions. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
There is a very fragmented system in Alberta. BC has BC Hydro, which is their major power utility that has enormous sway over most of the province. But I would have to commit to get back to the Member. I don’t have any further information that I could just off the top of my head indicate what systems are in place in other jurisdictions, though I would say, clearly, in Ontario they have a utility and they are divesting themselves of some of their assets, and Manitoba Hydro, as well, is a very, very major utility in Manitoba. But I will commit to get back to the Member with the information.
Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. Final, short supplementary, Mr. Bouchard.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In follow-up to my questions about the cost savings, has the Power Corporation put into the calculation the amount that it would cost to purchase the assets? I think there is $12 million on the books, but I think there has to be a premium if we’re taking a hostile takeover. Have we calculated that into the cost savings?
Yes, that factor has been calculated in and we are going to be taking on the community of 3,000 as a rate base, added to our rate base that we never had before, so it’s anticipated that the cost of power, which now pays for that infrastructure, will continue to pay for that infrastructure
Thank you, Mr. Miltenberger. The Member for Sahtu, Mr. Yakeleya.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of ITI. On May 22 there was a press release issued by the Government of Canada, the first time in history the National Energy Board and the Northwest Territories Geological Survey did an unconventional petroleum assessment in the Sahtu. The facts are there. There are a billion barrels of oil in the Sahtu. The recoverable rate is yet to be determined. The unknowns are still yet to be looked at.
I want to ask the Minister, now that we know the amount, possibly, of the oil in the Sahtu region, and even the percentage recoverable of that oil, what do we do with this information that’s been released by the National Energy Board and by our own government?
Thank you, Mr. Yakeleya. The Minister of Industry, Tourism and Investment, Mr. Ramsay.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This was welcome news for us. It’s something we’ve known for a long time, is that there is great resource potential for both oil and gas in the central Mackenzie Valley. The report would indicate that there are close to 200 billion barrels of oil there. We have only drilled two wells. I believe Conoco was the company that drilled two wells in the area. There is a lot of work that will go into determining what the resource really will be like. The exploration should continue and wells can be drilled and a determination made on what that resource would look like, but if you look at other deposits and basins around the world, a recovery rate of somewhere around 6 percent to 9 percent would leave us somewhere in the neighbourhood of 10 billion barrels of recoverable oil. We’ve been promoting the fact that we thought there was between three and five billion, but it could be much, much more than that figure.
In regard to the energy briefing note that I received from the Minister’s office, that in comparison to the amount of oil that’s been reported, and just on the best guess estimation of recoverable oil in the Sahtu region on a comparison basis, the Norman Wells conventional oilfield so far to date has pumped 274 million barrels of oil. There’s a huge amount in the Sahtu.
I want to ask the Minister, based on his reports and his understanding to recover that oil, we have to use the new technology called hydraulic horizontal fracturing. Does the Minister feel confident, given the time that we have now, that this new technology is sound, is safe, and that it can do what it says it can do, extract the oil so that the Sahtu region of the Northwest Territories can benefit on many fronts and that this information is solid, evidence-based, not hearsay or not thinking what other risks can be considered as not concrete evidence that this is a dangerous technology to use in the Northwest Territories? Thank you.
I think, with the resource that is in the Sahtu, it’s important that the government continue to take the long game approach to the development of those resources. Two big decisions were made. Obviously, the decision to move forward with devolution and negotiate a deal for the people of the Northwest Territories, that was very important. The other decision that was key to all of this was the fact that we wanted to build the capacity to regulate the oil and gas industry here in the Northwest Territories. We didn’t want to be regulated from Calgary; we wanted to have some input on policy, on direction. That was a big thing for us and we moved forward. We have the regulatory authority onshore to develop these resources, and we are in a process right now where we have draft filing requirements out for public review. We are consulting with Aboriginal governments around the territory, as I mentioned in my Minister’s statement earlier today. We are going to take some time. We are going to ensure that we hear from everybody we need to hear from. We’re going to try to get the information out there the people need to make informed decisions about these new regulations.
The fact of the matter is we are regulating the industry. These are our resources. They belong to the people of the Sahtu, the people of the Northwest Territories, and who better to manage the environment and these resources than the Government of the Northwest Territories. Thank you.
That’s been our goal and the goal of the Sahtu people, to manage our own resources. That is why the people in the Sahtu strongly voted for a land claim. It says in our land use plans and it says in our land claims that we will direct our own destiny and deal with the issues that need to be dealt with in our jurisdiction.
I want to ask the Minister, given what we know in the Sahtu, the reports are there, the facts are clear that this is the amount of oil that we have in our region sitting there, what do we do now that the oil prices are not quite where we want them to be? What is the triggering part that the department thinks can get the companies to come back? What are the factors that would make it so the companies could come back and further test the wells to really determine what’s recoverable under their leases?
There are many things we can do. We continue to discuss with industry, opportunities to partner. We have to look at the opportunities to invest and continue to invest in infrastructure that is going to lend itself to resource development here in the Northwest Territories. I mentioned a lot of that in my Minister’s statement earlier today as well. This is a long-term approach. This is why it is so vitally important that we get our Oil and Gas Strategy together so we can collect our thoughts and move forward on developing resources on behalf of the people of the Northwest Territories.
In the case of the Sahtu and the negotiations with the land claim and subsurface rights, the volume of oil and resource that is in the Sahtu, it is going to be multi-generational if it’s developed in the right way, in a sustainable manner. It will provide employment and economic opportunity for the Sahtu for generations to come. We can manage this and we can get the benefits from it if we do it right. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. Final, short supplementary, Mr. Yakeleya.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The amount of gas and oil in the Northwest Territories, a lot of it is up in the Mackenzie Delta, Beaufort-Delta, a lot of oil in the Sahtu. They use the technology of hydraulic fracking in the Fort Liard basin area. The Lone Pine Reserves have used vertical hydraulic fracking in the Cameron Hills.
I want to know from the Minister, based on the ‘70s use of the oil and gas exploration in the Cameron Hills, as the year of 2012 in Fort Liard they used the horizontal fracking technology there, has the Minister from his department or ENR collected any type of evidence that says what the anti-fracking people are saying about horizontal fracking in the Northwest Territories? Has there been any type of solid, qualified, certified evidence that says no, this is bad for the Northwest Territories, it’s not a good method to use, and we need to wait until we have further evidence to show that it’s minimizing the risk?
No, we haven’t. The other thing I should mention is that not all reservoirs are created equally. There are different types of rocks. Some hydraulic fracturing that would occur, say, in the Bakken, would require more water than it would in the central Mackenzie Valley. It all depends on the type of rock, and the rock we’re talking about with Canol and Blue Fish wouldn’t require as much water as other hydraulic fracturing operations around North America. That’s definitely something I think we need to continue to get out.
I believe there have been 175,000 wells for shale oil that have been fractured, hydraulically fractured in North America without incident. Some of the concerns are around shallow gas fractures that have taken place in the eastern United States.
If you’re going to be in the energy business, like I believe the Northwest Territories is going to be in the energy business, you’re definitely in the business of protecting the environment. You’re not in one without the other, and I think we can manage effectively both the economy and the environment.
Thank you, Mr. Ramsay. The time for oral questions has expired. Mr. Hawkins.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I seek unanimous consent to return to item 8 on the orders of the day called oral questions.
---Unanimous consent denied
Mr. Speaker, I have a Return to Written Question 24-17(5), asked by Ms. Bisaro on March 3, 2015, regarding 2015 transitional housing income support.
1.
Mr. Speaker, Ms. Bisaro asked four questions, the first being: "Does the Department of Education, Culture and Employment income support division have a definition of “transitional housing” that they use to determine a client's eligibility for income assistance?"
Mr. Speaker, an individual's eligibility for the Income Assistance program is determined in accordance with the Income Assistance Regulations under the Social Assistance Act and is further prescribed in the Income Assistance Policy Manual. The Income Assistance Regulations and policies do not include a definition of “transitional housing.”
2.
Mr. Speaker, Ms. Bisaro's second question was: "If yes, please provide it. If no, how does the department determine if a client is in transitional housing, and if they are, how does the department determine if the client is eligible for income assistance?"
Mr. Speaker, all clients' eligibility for the Income Assistance program is determined in accordance with the Social Assistance Act, Income Assistance Regulations and associated policies. Specifically, a client must be a “person in need,” as defined in Section 1.1, and meet one of the residency requirements set out in Section 1.11 of the regulations.
3.
Mr. Speaker, Ms. Bisaro's third question asked: "What policy governs clients whose only accommodation option is a motel or hotel room? Why are they not eligible for income assistance?"
Mr. Speaker, as discussed in response to the previous two questions, an individual's eligibility for the Income Assistance program is determined in accordance with the Income Assistance Regulations under the Social Assistance Act and the Income Assistance Policy Manual.
The Income Assistance program includes a variety of benefits such as allowances for food, room and board, accommodation, fuel and utilities, among others. Under Section 3.3 of the Income Assistance Policy Manual, transient living accommodations in a hotel, motel, tourist establishment or hostel are not eligible for an accommodation allowance because the accommodations are not bound by the Residential Tenancies Act and there is no written tenancy agreement between the client and landlord; however, while someone residing in a hotel or motel is not eligible for a rental allowance, they may still be eligible for other income assistance benefits, depending on their circumstances.
Going forward, the department is committed to reviewing how it provides rental allowances as part of the Income Assistance program.
4.
Mr. Speaker, Ms. Bisaro's fourth question was: "Explain what a client in an emergency housing situation, i.e. no housing options, should do to find accommodation. Who should they go to?"
Mr. Speaker, ECE provides funding to help non-government organizations (NGOs) operate emergency shelters in the NWT. These shelters are available for people who are faced with an emergency housing situation. The department works with the NWT Housing Corporation and the Department of Health and Social Services to address the complex issues associated with homelessness. I commit to continuing the conversation with the social envelope departments as part of our integrated case management work. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Mahsi cho, Mr. Speaker. Further to my Return to Written Question 25-17(5), I wish to table the following two documents, entitled “Report on Staff Retention Policy for 2011-2012 and 2012-2013,” and “Report on Staff Retention Policy for 2013-2014 and 2014-2015.”
