Debates of September 30, 2015 (day 85)

Mahsi, Mr. Chair. The 49 schools that we’re responsible for, any issues or concerns brought to our attention we have to work with PWS, Public Works and Services. We have addressed a lot of them, but they are continuous challenges that we’re faced with, whether it be the mice and other issues that the school boards bring to our attention. So, we’ll continue to work with that through Public Works and Services and to deal with those matters immediately.

The community learning centres, this is an area that Aurora College is responsible for under their umbrella. If there’s a request that comes in from the college, I believe the Member is correct that there are 23 community learning centres and that there’s an appetite for adding a couple more into the remote communities that may not have it. That’s the discussion that we need to have with Aurora College, with the identified community and put that forward. We haven’t really had that type of discussion, but I’m open to discussing that if it arises.

Early childhood, the Member is referring to whether it will be new schools or existing schools that have experienced a surplus of space that could be possibly early childhood or a child centre could be made available. I believe that’s been discussed in the past, as well, and we’re doing what we can to maximize that opportunity. This will also be addressed with the school boards, as well, that we represent throughout the Northwest Territories. We feel that the early childhood is a priority for us, as well, and also for the school boards. So, if it hasn’t been made a priority when a space becomes available, then that needs to be addressed by the school board and we will be reminding them of that as well.

The East Three, the dental area, the Member is correct that it’s been brought to the floor, as well, and it’s going to be addressed in the future. My understanding was that I thought it was dealt with, but I could be mistaken as well. We need to follow up on exactly where that is. Like the Member, it’s been a while since we last discussed this particular subject and I will make a commitment to provide the Member with the latest information and how can we move forward on that. Mahsi.

Thank you, Minister Lafferty. Continuing with questions, I have Mr. Blake.

Frederick Blake Jr.

Mackenzie Delta

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just a couple of comments, questions as well. As you know, both Tsiigehtchic and Fort McPherson have a fairly new school in each community, but our school in Tsiigehtchic is fairly small for providing nine grades with the new junior kindergarten that’s coming into effect here. We only have four classrooms in our school, and trying to control that many children in different grades, some teachers have to deal with students, like three grades. They’ve got one grade, you know, my hats off to those teachers trying to control the environment. Something needs to be done in the future in the schools such as Tsiigehtchic.

Also with Moose Kerr School in Aklavik. As I mentioned earlier, it is up for retrofit or replacement in 2019, but in the meantime a parking area is really needed. A lot of people are parking right on the public road. It’s just a matter of time until we have a child that runs out at recess and gets hit by one of the vehicles; it’s just a matter of time. It seems like that’s what the department is waiting for, some serious accident to take some action on this. We have some people who are driving off the road, you know, right up on the lawn just to have a safe place to park, but in this day in age it costs maybe $10,000 to $20,000 to resolve this problem. I don’t see why the department is not taking any action on this. It’s been almost a year since I brought this up. It’s time that we take some sort of action and make a safe environment for our children at the schools. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Blake. We’ll go to Minister Lafferty.

Mahsi, Mr. Chair. Tsiigehtchic, we have to keep in mind the utilization of the space. There are 49 schools that we’re responsible for, but we are working closely with the Beaufort-Delta District Education Council and we identify the capacity as 27 percent versus a 90 percent capacity in other schools, it becomes a priority for this Assembly. But we’re mindful of that and at every opportunity, if I visit a community, I like to visit the schools to see the capacity itself, to see what the real issues are. So that’s what we’ll continue to do.

The Moose Kerr School that the Member highlighted earmarked for retrofit in 2018-2019, they’re still on target, but there are areas that the Member has addressed. The public area of parking. Obviously, we’re not waiting for a student to get hurt and our first priority is the safety of our students. That’s the very reason why we’re doing a technical assessment really soon to deal with that matter that’s been brought to this House. We’ll keep the Member informed and also the school board on the progress we’re making on this particular area. Mahsi.

Thank you, Minister Lafferty. Continuing on with questioning, I have Mr. Bouchard.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have some questions and a few comments. First, it’s good to see some of the schools that are getting on there. Obviously, I’ve heard Mr. Menicoche talk about that facility a few times. I guess this department is not much different than all of the other departments that we look at. We’re talking about capital infrastructure and how it’s being assessed and I think the Minister talked a little bit about that, but how the different schools get assessed on when they’re going to be retrofitted or when there’s going to be a new school being built and how is that communicated to Members.

This capital budget for Education is no different than a bunch of other capital budgets that we have where the Members may see that it’s on the ‘16-17 budget, but when Public Works and Services and the department re-evaluate on an annual basis, that number could drop down to 2022, 2021. So, I mean, when we’re evaluating this stuff and when we’re changing the dates of these retrofits, are we notifying the Members of the changes and why? Like, which schools are being bumped ahead and which ones are being bumped back? That would be my first question as far as that discussion.

Are we communicating those changes, when it comes off a red circle list, or when it’s on the red circle list and it gets bumped down or back a year or two, are we communicating that with Members?

Thank you, Mr. Bouchard. We’ll turn it over to Minister Lafferty.

Mahsi, Mr. Chair. As part of the capital planning process, obviously there is a process that we have to follow. There are five steps that have to meet the criteria within the capital planning process. If one of the projects that we push forward doesn’t get approved, the Members should be notified. If it’s not happening then we need to deal with that. I totally agree with the Member that we should be communicating with the Members. If a project that has been identified as a red flag but didn’t make the hopper, there’s got to be a reason why, and maybe we need to improve that communication. We’ll do our part as the department if we haven’t done so in the past.

I’m hearing the Member that we need to be notifying those individual projects that may not make it to the final stages, why and why not. Those are communications that we need to improve on.

I appreciate that commitment to communicate with Members if their projects are getting dumped back. I would recommend that to all the Ministers when they’re coming forward on this discussion. I think that’s going to be a factor I’m going to bring forward, because we’ve seen that in this deliberation of the capital budget when we’ve reviewed it, that some of those projects, those dates seems to switch and some Members are saying, when did that happen, we didn’t hear that, I didn’t hear that. If we could start to communicate that when that does happen.

Obviously, I’m concerned about, as I mentioned, the two schools in Hay River. I know we just did Diamond Jenness Secondary School, but we have Harry Camsell and Princess Alexandra. Obviously, you guys have the list of all of the schools and where they fit in the mid-life retrofit, so I’d like to know exactly if the department has that information of when the two schools in Hay River would be deemed ready for mid-life retrofit.

We have more detailed information here if I can get my deputy to just elaborate more.

Thank you, Minister Lafferty. Mr. Stewart.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just in terms of the schools in Hay River, as the Member noted, Ecole Boreale was constructed in 2005, so it’s about a 10-year-old school, so it would be a while before it would be in a retrofit situation. Diamond Jenness was just completed in 2012. In the case of Harry Camsell, it was constructed in 1990 and had a renovation in 1996, so it would be starting to get to that point where I think it would be getting towards that point of looking at another retrofit, although obviously it has to be assessed against all the others that are in that timing as well.

Thank you, Mr. Stewart. Mr. Bouchard.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There’s one other. Princess Alexandra is the other one. I’m not sure if he has that on the list there somewhere.

Sorry about that. It is an older school but it was renovated in 2002, so it’s about 13 years since the last renovation there.

I didn’t catch the last part of Mr. Stewart’s comments. Sorry.

The renovation at Princess Alexandra was 2002.

You mentioned Ecole Boreale, and I mentioned to the Minister under general comments, and I’m just wondering about the development and the planning that we’re doing with the French schools in both Yellowknife and Hay River. We know that we’re in a situation that we’ve been told that we have to spend money. We’ve been told that we don’t have to spend as much money, but we know we’re going to have to spend money eventually in the whole system.

Are we just burying our head in the sand and ignoring this issue or are we somewhere down the line, even if it’s four or five years down the line, putting some sort of dollar figure to those two schools as far as their requirements for expansion, requirements for gymnasiums?

Thank you, Mr. Bouchard. Minister Lafferty.

Mahsi, Mr. Chair. This particular school, Ecole Boreale, has been in the works for quite some time now, even going through court proceedings and so forth. We’re not ignoring that issue. We are talking to the appropriate parties. Obviously, we need to be prepared of what the outcome will be with the court case. We don’t know what the outcome will be, so we’re trying to stay in close contact with the parties on how we can move forward in the meantime.

My deputy may have been involved to some degree on the discussion with the school board, and if there have been any steps taken he can elaborate more, but I believe we are just currently waiting for the court outcome. At the same time, we are in discussions with the school board.

Thank you, Minister Lafferty. Mr. Stewart.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. As the Minister said, as the Member would know, there was an appeal of the court order. The Francophone representatives have indicated that they are appealing to the Supreme Court of Canada, and we’re waiting to hear from the Supreme Court as to whether they’re going to take up that case or not. The Francophone Association suggested to us that we should wait until we get that answer back before we proceed from there, and we agreed with that proposal that we’ll hold off on starting anything until we hear whether the Supreme Court is going to take the appeal or not.

Thank you, Mr. Stewart. Mr. Bouchard.

I guess I have this question for Education, as well as all the other Members, and some of the other Members will ask some of the same questions. I know we’ve had meetings with the Parent Action Committee how they can make it move forward, the Ecole Boreale process, but is the department looking at ways like private partnership agreements? I know education probably hasn’t been the keenest area in to do this, but if a proposal comes forward with some private funding to put in 10 percent or 20 percent of the cost, are we looking to do that and would that move the process forward in putting it on the capital budget?

Thank you, Mr. Bouchard. Minister Lafferty.

Mahsi, Mr. Chair. Over the years we’ve been following the process when it comes to capital infrastructure, but just recently there’s been some interest from community, whether it be the business arm wanting to provide some opportunity for us. Those are just the recent discussions that we are currently having and potential prospects of either building new schools or the college and so forth. Those are discussions that, as a Cabinet, we need to have. Anything we do goes against our borrowing limit so we have to be mindful of that.

My department is working very closely with PWS as well. Anything we do, PWS would have to be involved. I hear where the Member is coming from and we have been exploring those areas as well.

Thank you, Minister Lafferty. Continuing on with questioning, I have Mr. Hawkins.

Robert Hawkins

Yellowknife Centre

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As the time and certainly the clock of the day is running out, I’m going to be really brief and then I’ll report progress from thereon in.

The issue I wanted to highlight and say is that I’m very excited to see that the two schools have made the capital plan this year, and I think that couldn’t have been done without the great work of all Members on this particular side of the House. I know that each Member was very gracious on supporting that these two plans, one for Mildred Hall and one for Sissons, got on the books. I know it was raised by many of my colleagues over the years and it has taken its time, but it’s one of those challenges, getting your project on the books. I know it doesn’t mean immediately that there will be a new school built or a new renovation. You have to start with a plan. I have even talked to the school board about it. In order to be able to know what we’re dealing with, we have to start with a plan. That’s the way you do business.

I just want to stress how grateful I am to the government for supporting these two initiatives. I am sincerely grateful for the extra push I got from all the Yellowknife colleagues and certainly community colleagues as we all collectively got behind these initiatives. I would be remiss to say that the Sir John project of fixing the sewer line is obviously key. They’ve had troubles for a number of years on that piece of infrastructure and I’m glad ECE is there. I certainly look forward to the good work they’ll do going forward on these two initiatives and we’ll see where it takes us. When the timing is appropriate, we will address the challenges at Mildred Hall and Sissons. Like I said earlier, we need a plan and that’s what this is going to do. I can assure you the two schools are very excited to know that their schools haven’t been forgotten.

The last point I wanted to say is one of the challenges we’ve always had with schools is you have to hit the magic number. My argument is I don’t necessarily think that shouldn’t apply, but it shouldn’t apply in every circumstance. What happens here is if your school is 10 students short of meeting that next level of getting your renovation, what we do at the same time is ignore the asset as a whole. One of the initiatives we worry about with capital investment is saying we have to protect the asset. Obviously, we protect people and resources and the asset. By letting schools get old, deteriorated and say if you only need 10 more students we would do a renovation, we have to stress about the other opportunities there within, which is to say the asset always has to be well maintained and safe. I’m not talking about safety when it comes to dangers, but I am saying safe in the context of how it’s used.

I just want to say thank you to the department for helping us as well. Again, Members came when this problem needed to be faced and they got behind it. So, thank you to everyone.

I just wanted to provide some comments. At this time I move that we report progress.

---Carried

Thank you, Mr. Hawkins. I would like to thank our guests today. Mr. Lovely, Mr. Stewart, thanks for joining us and, of course, the Minister for joining us as well. If I can get the Sergeant-at-Arms to escort our witnesses out of the Chamber, I will now rise and report progress. Thank you, committee.

Report of Committee of the Whole