Thank you, Mr. Campbell. Mr. Nadli.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just maybe my final point or question is what's next in terms of the department working along with the communities and the proponent to ensure that, you know, there's a timeliness and at the same time successful stage in terms of ensuring the reality of the wood pellet plant being in operation? Mahsi.
Thank you, Mr. Nadli. Mr. Campbell.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. The key to ensure this initiative becomes a reality is the completion of the fibre agreements with the community entities and the proponent for the pellet mill. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Campbell. Mr. Nadli. Nothing further. Seeing no more comments or questions, we can move on to page 97. Forest management, active positions. Questions? Seeing none. Back to page 95 where we will call this total. Actually, we'll discuss this page first. Page 95, forest management, operations expenditure summary. Comments or questions? Mr. Beaulieu.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, just wanted to dig a little deeper into the reconfiguration of the fire crews and the loss of positions in the communities. I notice that there's still the same amount of firefighters and I knew that; the Minister had advised me of that. I'm wondering what process was used to determine that some communities would lose positions.
Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu. Mr. Campbell.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. In 2012, the Department of Environment and Natural Resources undertook a program review, and through that process is where we had the recommendation to go down this road of creating crews that were five-man crews to four-man crews through that program review process. In anticipation of that and going forward with other jurisdictions in the country going to four-man crews as well, we managed our crew contingent with the expectation that was coming down the pipe. For an example, there was some of the communities where our five-man crews where there was permanent seasonal positions, if there was individuals that either resigned or the position became vacant we did not permanently staff those positions; we staffed them with casuals. The discussion with the communities in the regions, they were aware that we were going down this road. We also undertook an exercise where we reviewed with our contract partners the personnel contracts with those Aboriginal governments and through that exercise as well, they were informed that we would be going from five-man to four-man crews to be more effective, more efficient, and to allow us again to go from 28 to 35 crews. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Campbell. Mr. Beaulieu.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, that's good there's more crews, more efficient crews. However, the process of eliminating positions, whether they be casuals or not, at some point there are two less jobs in communities where there are two crews and there's one less job in a community where there is one crew. We are going through an exercise here at this point where we are talking about some half-time positions in Yellowknife, as an example. Some part-time positions in various communities across the NWT. We've been talking lots about the employment rates in small communities. Above all, there's one thing we don't want to see in small communities is lose positions. What happens is if the government determines that a four-man crew are more efficient, then shouldn't it be incumbent upon the department to make sure that the leftover firefighter is placed in the community in a PY, or else there's an actual loss of a person year in that community, which I'm opposed to. I think all Members of the Assembly from small communities are opposed to. We stand up in the House and we talk about the lack of employment in small communities, the low employment rates, the communities are having difficulties surviving without a lot of government subsidies. The government is prepared, at this point more prepared to offer income support, social housing, and other subsidies for an individual for a person to stay at home and what we need is we need people to have jobs. With this type of move then, this department has eliminated PYs. It doesn't matter that they only fill casuals in the last couple of years; that don't matter to me. The bottom line is: we lost positions. If they want to add crews in some communities, fine, I have no issue with that. I certainly don't have an issue with them bringing back an old crew that used to exist in Tsiigehtchic that was taken away at some point and brought back, but what I'm opposed to and will not support, is the positions being taken out of small communities. I will not support a budget that removes PYs from Fort Resolution, Lutselk'e, or Detah, or Ndilo. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu. Mr. Campbell.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Absolutely there are impacts to some communities and there's benefits to others. Overall, we have more crews. We still have programs that, for an example, if a fire is threatening areas, whether it's the South Slave or the Dehcho or whatever, we have programs where we can, to increase our personnel we can hire extra personnel. We do know that over the years in many of our communities we've trained up a lot of firefighters. There's other programs where in the event of a fire that we would ramp up and hire more personnel. The other piece, I guess, you know, going forward with the community in the South Slave there in particular where we just recently talked about the forest industry initiative, at some point, you know, when the initiative is underway we would probably be forced to look at an increase in that community to protect that fibre supply, so. At this point, I certainly recognize the impact but again, the overall, collectively as a whole for the Territories, we are better off with this arrangement. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Campbell. Mr. Beaulieu.
Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I don't know where the positions went to so I don't know if we're better off. I don't know if the positions were taken out of communities that had low employment rates and put in the larger centres that have more crews. Larger centres that have more than four crews that could within themselves create… If they had 20 firefighters, for example, they could easily go from four crews to five crews without any impact. Or if there's three crews and there's more people needed they'd have to come from some community. All I know is that the impact is felt by communities and that's what the problem is. Is that, like, are we going to go through a process of reducing PYs in any particular community? If we want to look at the 97 seasonal positions then I'll ask the Minister: can you provide us with where all the shifts occurred? Where did the PY shift to? Did the PY shift to Hay River? Or did the PY shift to another community? What happened? How did this come about where the crews got smaller? Even if we were to be informed of the fact that we're moving to four-men crew, that's okay. But I need to know how we went through the process here in the House dealing with the Minister of Finance on this budget and not being advised that these PYs are being moved out of the position because they're only casuals anyway. Even casuals have families and we need to address that issue. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu. Your time is up. If you'd like to get back in the queue you can, but I'll let Mr. Campbell answer.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Regarding where the positions ended up and where the communities have the crews and that, we certainly can provide that list. As far as how we went from five to four, again, I mentioned the program review. In particular, our rotary wing aircraft for initial attack for these crews, the configuration is where we can now be more efficient by doing initial attack on fires, where in the past we would use three trips with the water wing. With this arrangement, again we're down to two trips. It's the makeup of our resources that we have and our crews that allows us to be consistent with other jurisdictions across Canada to be more effective and more efficient. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Campbell. Next on the list I have Mr. Testart.
Sorry, Mr. Chair. Nothing from me.
Thank you, Mr. Testart. Mr. Thompson.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I guess I'm trying to better understand the efficiencies here. We've gone to a four-man crew to a five-man... From a five-man crew to a four-man crew. Is the efficiencies in fighting the fire or is the efficiencies in saving money for the department? In other words, the helicopters, equipment, stuff like that. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Thompson. Mr. Campbell.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. The efficiencies are actually in both fighting fire and, again, taking advantage of our fiscal resources. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Campbell. Mr. Thompson?
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Probably the deputy minister is going to have to explain how they're more efficient in fighting fires with a four-man crew compared to a five-man crew. If you have five people you're going to…
Twenty per cent more work.
Yes, there's 20 per cent more work. I'm just trying to understand the efficiency and how... I understand the efficiencies with the budget and saving money for the equipment and, you know, operations. I've heard the deputy minister say that, you know, there's two flights versus three flights, and I understand that. That's a cost saving; that makes sense, but when we're talking about efficiencies with a four-man crew versus a five-man crew, can a five-man crew not do a better job than a four-man crew or is there some… I'll just leave it at that and I'll ask the next question after. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Thompson. Mr. Campbell.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. With our current arrangement, again, in particular with our water wing here, we initially attack fires. Even over the years, the majority of the time utilizing four people and there have been many occasions where that fifth person is left at home. I spent most of my career in the fire program as a firefighter a lot of times, and the old days we had the big medium helicopters, we can take two five-man crews, and as we evolved to the intermediate rotary wing, they've done it across the country, this is where we see the efficiencies. The initial attack process is to ensure that we gain control of that fire within the first 24-hour period and normally that's done within the first few hours. Again, the majority of our fires we end up utilizing four people. Again, we also, on the other side save an extra trip with the rotary. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Campbell, and just a note to the committee: sidebar conversations are making it sometimes difficult to hear, so if you want to keep those to a minimum. Mr. Thompson.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I thank the deputy minister for that answer. It clears up things and I'm not questioning his expertise, because that I assume being a deputy minister and fighting fires that's why you're sitting where you are. I thank you very much for that and now I have a better understanding of what you're saying. Back to the firebreaks in regards to this here. Has the government looked at working with these small communities, especially after seeing what has happened in Fort McMurray, developing firebreaks in the community and utilizing the staff if it's a slow, and I'm praying we're a slow season, or working with the communities to fund them so that they can actually make a firebreak a little bit larger, like a kilometre away from their communities, to make it more safe. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Thompson. Mr. Campbell.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yes, we have. We work with MACA; we work with the communities on implementing their wildfire protection plans, and again, it's a joint effort. The communities, of course, are responsible for ensuring they're prepared for emergency events like wildfire. We provide a lot of technical advice. On the question with our own resources, we provide our resources as well to help to do the mitigation efforts and fuel breaks in this instance. If we have a slow season, we also utilize our crews to work with the community therein enhancing those fuel breaks. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Campbell. Mr. Thompson.
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I thank Mr. Campbell for that answer. I hear there's a partnership. Has the department looked at working with the communities to help them fund so they can do it themselves with the technical support of the department? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Thompson. Mr. Campbell.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Ultimately I guess what we're trying to do is to work with the communities and to see how we can leverage our funds with their funds and also to look at other areas where we can find more funds. An example will be a few years ago through a federal program we were able to, along with the communities, access funding where we had enough funding to build and enhance many of our few breaks that are in place now. Thank you, Mr. Chair
Thank you, Mr. Campbell. Mr. Thompson?
Thank you. Again, I was having a hard time hearing, and I apologize to Mr. Campbell. We're able to access funding for the federal government. I understand that and it was very successful; however, right now that funding, I'm assuming, is gone and so is the department willing to look at within their coffers to see if there's funding available especially for the smaller communities like the Trout Lakes, the Jean Maries, the Nahanni Buttes, the Lutselk'es, the Fort Resses, these small communities that don’t have a lot of money and are, you know, a little bit strapped, and after I had seen what happened in Fort McMurray, that really scares me. If it happens there, we're going to lose communities, and so is the department willing to look at or even, and maybe it is shot for this budget, but next year's budget, so that we can work with the communities, have money available to do firebreaks. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Mr. Thompson. Mr. Campbell.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Absolutely we're willing to look at other possible opportunities here to gain those resources. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Campbell. Mr. Thompson.
Thank you very much. I thank the deputy minister and Minister for their answers and I'll be working and I'll be probably doing some Member’s statements on it anyways, so I thank you very much and I appreciate all your expertise because it is very valuable to the government. So you can't retire for another five years. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Thompson. Mr. Beaulieu.
Mr. Chairman, I move to report progress.
Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu. There is a motion on the floor to report progress. The motion is in order and non-debatable. All those in favour. All those opposed. The motion is carried. I will now stand and report progress. Thank you, Minister and your witnesses. Sergeant-at-Arms, you may escort the witnesses from the Chamber.
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, your committee has been considering Tabled Document 50-18(2), Main Estimates, 2016-2017. I would like to report progress, with one motion being adopted. Mr. Speaker, I move that the report of the Committee of the Whole be concurred with. Thank you.
Masi. Do we have a seconder? Member for Deh Cho. Motion is in order. To the motion. Question’s been called. All those in favour? All those opposed?
---Carried
Mr. Speaker, orders of the day for Thursday, June 9, 2016, at 1:30 p.m.:
Prayer
Ministers’ Statements
Members’ Statements
Returns to Oral Questions
Recognition of Visitors in the Gallery
Acknowledgements
Oral Questions
Written Questions
Returns to Written Questions
Replies to Commissioner’s Opening Address
Replies to Budget Address
Petitions
Reports of Standing and Special Committees
Reports of Committees on the Review of Bills
Tabling of Documents
Notices of Motion
Notices of Motion for First Reading of Bills
Motions
Motion 15-18(2), Reappointment of Human Rights Commission Members
Motion 16-18(2), Appointment of the Equal Pay Commissioner
Motion 17-18(2), Extended Adjournment of the House to June 13, 2016
First Reading of Bills
Second Reading of Bills
Consideration in Committee of the Whole of Bills and Other Matters
Tabled Document 50-18(2), Main Estimates, 2016-2017
Report of Committee of the Whole
Third Reading of Bills
Orders of the Day
