Mr. Chair, a lot of this information can be obtained online, or alternatively, often these subscriptions relate to fairly obscure areas of law, and perhaps the practitioners in those areas can pay for their own books as lawyers who are outside of Yellowknife must.
Do you have to pay for these online subscriptions?
Certainly, Mr. Chair, there are online subscription services that you can pay for. Alternatively, however, there are such programs or, not programs, but facilities such as CanLII where you can obtain fairly uptodate law free of charge.
If we go online, will we be able to provide the same service to the lawyers and the public that is required if the subscriptions are not being used?
Mr. Chair, clearly, if this reduction proceeds, there will not be the same availability of material at the central library in Yellowknife. However, we do feel in view of the very, very reduced usage that that is not that big a loss, if I can put it that way, because most lawyers can simply find this information online, whether it’s through a paid organization such as Westlaw, or CanLII where it’s provided free of charge. We have found in view of the usage, which I’ve referred to several times, that this is just too great an expense to justify, continuing with the library. Thank you.
What will happen to all these resources if this library is being closed?
Mr. Chair, I imagine we will do the same as we did when we reduced the size of the library. Some of the more valuable editions might come to archives or actually to our library here. There are some interesting aspects of the collection. I don’t think we’re going to be able to sell many of the other assets, and I think last time, they were simply given away to members of the local bar or whoever is interested, so that is the likely way we’re going to dispose of these assets.
Can the Minister tell us if other regions or other provincial, territorial jurisdictions are getting rid of their libraries as well?
Mr. Chair, I do know that large law firms are certainly getting rid of their collections. When I started in this business many years ago as a lowly articling student in Toronto, one of the assets of every firm was seen to be their library. They don’t have libraries anymore simply because they’re not needed. I don’t know the exact expenditures in other provincial jurisdictions, but I imagine they are likely for the same reasons reducing their expenditures in this area. They would be in the same position in that they have asked majority of users now would be online, and it’s very hard to justify the incredible expense of a library.
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I thank the Minister for his answer. I am not talking about large law firms. I am talking about provincial and territorial governments. My understanding is that if this does occur in our territory we will be the only one in Canada without a law library. Is that correct, Mr. Chair? Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Thompson. Minister.
Mr. Chair, I know that the judiciary will still have their library and I believe the Department of Justice does have a somewhat smaller library. Legal division does. Some of the books… I had the opportunity of looking at the main library here in town does have some books on law, so we will not have one central source of legal materials in the same way, but I think there will still be some access to those types of materials, either through the regular library archives, our library here, or the internal law libraries of the GNWT. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Mr. Thompson.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I thank the Minister for his answer. I’m just looking at some information here. Nunavut, their government library is 100-per-cent funded. Yukon is 70-per-cent. It really confuses me why our two sister territories think it is important to have this law library. And I guess my other concern is the judicial library is not open to the public. How are we going to have people given the opportunity to get information properly if it’s all over the place? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Thompson. Minister.
Individuals, Mr. Chair, will still have the option of doing their own research online, as I mentioned yesterday when asked about this issue. Only about one per cent of those using the current library are members of the general public, that is to say not lawyers or judges. It doesn’t seem that the public is using this facility very much. I can’t really speak to what’s going on in other jurisdictions, but we simply do not believe that the huge cost that is incurred is worthwhile anymore. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Mr. Thompson.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. At this point in time, I am going to respectfully disagree with the Minister. I will end my questioning at this point in time. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Thompson. I have Mr. Testart.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have questions about the law library. I note that my colleagues commented on the fact that we’ll be the only jurisdiction in Canada without this resource. We’re also the only jurisdiction in Canada without a standalone courthouse that we own ourselves. These are both financial issues. The library being a recent one, but the courthouse being a longstanding one. I’m just wondering: how does the Minister feel about that, about being Minister of Justice without a courthouse, and now without a law library, and a standalone in Canada. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Testart. Minister.
Mr. Chair, the issue of a standalone courthouse in Yellowknife has been a long-standing issue. I believe this was looked at at some point in the not-too-distant past. The cost of establishing a new standalone courthouse was found to be excessive, so there’s no plans in the immediate future to develop a new courthouse. Certainly, the judiciary and law profession probably would prefer a modern, standalone, separate courthouse. Should we go down that route, the cost would be very, very high and would take away from other capital projects that might be more worthy to a larger group of the population. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Mr. Testart.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate that it is a very costly project that doesn’t have the same benefits of, say, a hospital or a road so being fiscally prudent on capital certainly. We’re standing alone, I think, for the wrong reasons in some areas. I know the department sent a letter to the law society informing them of the change. Were other governments consulted in their library usage statistics because I wonder if we are alone in this decline? My sense would be that other jurisdictions, if the Minister is correct that major law firms are shutting their legal libraries down, perhaps it is true that other government-funded libraries have low usage, but are maintained for completely different reasons and that’s a service to the public. Were other governments consulted on their law libraries? Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Testart. Minister.
Mr. Chair, I don’t believe we consulted with other governments certainly respecting their libraries. We simply looked at our own cost structure here where there were so few people using it in view of the cost that it simply did not seem to be worthwhile. We only have a certain amount of resources for outreach, and as I mentioned earlier, we are increasing the outreach capabilities of the Legal Services Commission, and it simply comes down to a matter of cost balance against effect. Is the result good enough to justify this $467,000 cost? For the very few members of the public who actually use a library, we don’t think so. We also are of a view that the particularly valuable aspects of the collection will not be lost but would either go to archives, perhaps to this library here. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Mr. Testart.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate that a reduction exercise was the direction of this government and that the department is working with that challenge. I’ll take the Minister on his word that there’s less value in maintaining something this expensive. I’m interested about the new legal resource centre. I heard the word “kiosk” earlier. The other day I asked would this be a, you know, room in the basement. What are we talking about with this resource centre? I really hope the department can provide further details with the staff here. Perhaps they can give us a sense of what this resource centre is going to look like. I’m fine with rolling out a new program that’s more efficient and less costly, but let’s make sure it’s substantial and not slapped together. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Testart. Minister.
The portions of the building are being reconfigured. We do have some ideas for the space that the library is currently in. I’m not certain because we haven’t really determined where this resource centre might be located. In the building is there issues of security and so on. But we are certainly looking at possibilities. Again, the building is being reconfigured to some degree. We have ideas for the space on the first floor. Whether the resource centre will be on that floor or perhaps the second floor is yet to be determined. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Mr. Testart.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. We’re cutting the library to save costs, but this new resource centre’s going to cost money as well. Is there any idea of how much this resource centre is going to cost in terms of online subscriptions, in terms of computer hardware, and other equipment that’ll be needed for it? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Testart. Minister Sebert.
Mr. Chair, I wonder if Ms. Haener might be able to assist on this question. Thank you.
Thank you. Ms. Haener.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. We are very aware of the need to increase access to justice, and as part of that we have had on the books for a couple years now a project involving the reconfiguration of the main floor of the courthouse, and the work there will encompass a number of different aspects to the provision of services including making sure that it is more disability accessible because the current ramp arrangement is not appropriate and to code for disability access. As well, one of the things that we have been considering, because we haven’t completely finalized what this is going to look like and what shape the renovations would take, is locating the legal aid outreach service on the main floor of the courthouse so that the legal aid outreach lawyer is present in the building and accessible to more individuals and more visible. One of the thoughts is that that is an area where people, public included, would go to seek advice and to access information and services. That is one of the things being considered, but we have not completely finalized what shape this will take. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Ms. Haener. Mr. Testart.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate that, and you know that goes back to the many resources of expended reconfiguring that building and we always seem to be correcting deficiencies. I wonder if the Minister recalls the time when he was a scrappy young lawyer starting his practice in the Northwest Territories. For young practitioners who are coming up to start in perhaps the private bar, availing themselves to free resources certainly is a benefit to their practices. Is that a concern for the department at all? Perhaps the Minister could reflect on the start of his career? Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Testart. Minister.
Mr. Chair, I didn’t think I’d be asked about ancient times, but when I was starting out I did have my own library and built it over the years and in fact still have it because the books were incredibly expensive and it hurts to throw them out though they have become increasingly out-dated. In the last few years of my practice, I had one or two books, criminal code watts, one or two others and that was about it. The rest of the research was done online, so I don’t think that is very different from most of the lawyers, younger lawyers, coming out now. I think actually a lot of them wouldn’t even have space for a library because they tend to operate without an office. That simply seems to be the modern model. Yes, there will be some additional costs, but there are always costs in setting up any business, and I don’t see that the costs would be excessive to have a very limited library and then perhaps access online resources. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Mr. Testart’s time was expired. Mr. O’Reilly, who is on my list.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I guess I just want to start with I’m glad we’re talking about the cost of justice here and increasing access to justice. What role does the Minister see the court library playing in public education? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. O’Reilly. Minister.
Mr. Chair, in view of the very little usage by the general public, it seems that the public isn’t that interested in using this resource either. To be fair also, that unlike other libraries that resource is only open for a fairly limited time, but even during the hours of operation, I think only about one per cent of the people using it were members of the general public. As I say, these types of resources, legal research can be done online cheaply and often at no cost. That’s how envision legal education in the future. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Mr. O’Reilly.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I think I’m going to disagree with the Minister on that, but I wanted to move towards talking about how the department consulted with some of those user groups of the library. In fact, some of those user groups actually contributed towards the cost of the library over a number of years. As I understand the Law Society contributed $28,000 in 2014-15, 2015-16 it was about $20,000. The Law Foundation contributed $50,000 in 2014-15, 2015-16 the same amount. Can the Minister tell me what consultation was done with the Law Society of the NWT before this decision was taken as they’re putting money on the table or they were putting money on the table as part of this? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. O’Reilly. Minister.
Mr. Chair, the Law Society of the Northwest Territories and the NWT Law Foundation over the years have contributed towards the financial contribution of the operation of the library. The total amount contributed, however, has fallen. In 2007-08 it was around $120,000 and it’s fallen currently to about $50,000. It would appear that the contributions have fallen even while our costs have risen. As a percentage of the costs, and I don’t have the figures in front of me, obviously the contributions have fallen to be about 11 per cent from probably a much higher percentage in 2007-08. Although there has been a contribution by the Law Society and NWT Law Foundation, those contributions have fallen. This issue came up approximately 10 years ago when the library was reduced. There was some opposition to that reduction. Somewhat informally, I did speak to many of my fellow practitioners and most of them, particularly the younger ones, hardly knew where the library was. When the budget came out, a letter was sent to the Law Society. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Mr. O’Reilly.
Mr. Chair, I’m glad to hear that a letter was sent to the Law Society when the main estimates were tabled. Was there any advance consultation with the Law Society as one of the funding partners for the library? Thanks, Mr. Chair, and if so, what was that? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
