I now call Committee of the Whole to order. What is the wish of committee? Mr. Beaulieu.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, committee wishes to make more general comments on the Tabled Document 143-18(2), Capital Estimates, 2017-2018. Committee also wishes to try to get through the Departments of Lands; Finance; Environment and Natural Resources; and Industry, Tourism and Investment. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu. Does committee agree?
Agreed.
Noting the time and noting that we had a break earlier, if we can take a brief, five-minute break and be back here, I will call a short recess. Thank you.
---SHORT RECESS
I'll now call Committee of the Whole back to order. Committee, we've agreed to discuss Tabled Document 143-18(2), Capital Estimates 2017-2018. We agreed to begin with general comments. Does the Minister of Finance wish to bring witnesses into the House?
I do, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Sergeant-at-Arms, can you please escort the witnesses into the Chamber? Thank you. Minister, would you please introduce your witness?
Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, to my right, I have Mr. David Stewart who is the deputy minister of Finance.
Thank you, Minister. Welcome, Mr. Stewart. Now, do we have any general comments? I see Mr. Nadli.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I just wanted to make some comments in terms of the capital estimates for 2017-2018. The process that we saw -- this has been my fifth year in terms of at least being a witness of having the departments and the committee work together in terms of the budget process regarding the capital estimates. We're proposing to commit $331 million estimated in spending for communities throughout the NWT. Now, one thing that I wanted to express is just a concern of the process that we experience, and it's left me to say that I know it's a bit presumptuous to act as if we have already concluded the amalgamation of two departments or a series of departments and that any department has been formed.
While I have concerns, I mean I am encouraged by some ongoing initiatives in terms of tourism, at the same time there's initiatives towards ensuring that transportation projects will continue at the same time. We know there are initiatives towards housing, especially in regards to another reserve in terms of jurisdictions. There's been challenges in terms of trying to get the consensus in terms of trying to move forward to bring housing to the reserve. There's still of course in the riding that I represent the need for basic recreational services in terms of perhaps the contemplation of an arena on the reserve or perhaps elderly care facilities that we still need to see in terms of addressing the whole matter of aging senior population in terms of looking at the baseline infrastructure.
At the same time there's still fundamental need for schools in our small communities and, of course, basic infrastructure, services that we expect to be in small communities. An example is water treatment plants. So those are just some of the comments that I wanted to make. Mahsi.
Thank you, Mr. Nadli. Would the Minister like to respond?
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, as far as the amalgamation goes we're not assuming anything. We realize that it's a process that we have to go through called the Capital Planning Process and the main estimates being held in February and March. This is an initiative that, depending on how things go with the main estimate debate, is not going to come into force until April 1st. So the capital budget is not coming in effective until April 1st, and the same with the O and M budget would come into effect April 1st. So it's on those grounds that we bring this initiative forward.
As far as some of the other community projects that the Member speaks of, I've said a number of times in the past in my former capacity that the communities have the ability with the infrastructure money that's given them and other possible money that they're able to access to identify what some of their priorities are and use the capital money that we give them to make those a reality.
It puts a lot of responsibility on the communities, but communities have responded well to that. I've said before that if we work some of these smaller projects into the capital plan, then we're making the decisions for the communities again, and they've proven that they're quite capable of making their own decisions as to what their priorities are.
So, Mr. Chair, the communities have the ability, as I've said before, and I think I've rattled on a little too long. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister McLeod. Next on my list I have Mr. Blake with general comments.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just a few comments here. You know, I have noticed spending in my riding has gone down a little compared to last year. No Member likes to see things like this, but you know we are happy that we are getting a couple new units in Fort McPherson because I've always said, you know, the housing does do a good job replacing units, but you know we have to start planning ahead for adding to our stock. It's always a challenge. There's a huge waiting list in both Fort McPherson and Aklavik. As we move forward, I hope we could achieve that through this Assembly.
Also, I'm very pleased to see the four-bay garage on the records here for James Creek. That's much needed infrastructure along the Dempster Highway. Also, with the Dempster widening as well, you know, as we plan for the opening of the Inuvik-Tuk Highway, it's very important that we have the remaining of the highway also in good shape for all the tourists that we're expecting for next year. It's pretty clear that we're going to have to start planning ahead here for all that traffic.
A good example is the Louis Cardinal at Tsiigehtchic. You know we have to start planning ahead for replacement of that vessel. I believe it's about 25 to 30 years old maybe, somewhere in that area. So we've got to start planning ahead. You know, right now the people on the ground are noticing that even with the vehicles we have now, it's just not feasible. We do need a larger vessel.
So you know we have to start working out costing for what it is going to take our government to replace that. I know I've always pushed for the other vessel from Providence to be moved down, but you know that's just as old as well. So you know it's better off, as we always look at the feasibilities. It's pretty much better just to get a new vessel, and you know it'll last much longer and less repairs as well.
You know, and as we move forward to next year, I'm sure hoping to see the replacement of the Louis Cardinal just so the two Ministers responsible for that could take notes for next year and I hope to see it in there next year. Thank you very much.
Thank you, Mr. Blake. Would the Minister like to respond?
No, I've used up my quota of yesses for the week. Mr. Chair, the Member makes a good point on the housing infrastructure. One of the challenges that all of jurisdictions are facing is, and I've said it a number of times, is the decline in funding at CMHC. I think the current Minister of Housing has made a commitment that they're going to continue to raise the issue at the FPT table, and one of the benefits with the new federal government is that they actually are willing to come to the table. We've never had that before; we were very challenged.
In all my time as Minister of Housing I think we may have had a federal presence once. I think it was the only one FPT we've ever been to, so this current government is more receptive to attending FPTs and having discussions on the CMHC funding. We're very fortunate that this government, I think in the last couple of years, has put some money towards offsetting the decline. I believe it was $1.2 million last year, and it might have been a bit more in the last budget that we debated. So that has continued to be a challenge, but now I think at least we have the ear of the federal government.
As far as the four-bay garage goes, I am pleased to see it in the capital budget because I do know the one that the Member's talking about and good on them. I think it was our government as we put more money actually into the condition of the roads, then the condition of our buildings, and you see that firsthand, Mr. Blake, and so it's a long overdue project and hopefully it'll help them to be able to look after their equipment a bit better.
The Dempster widening, you're absolutely correct, Mr. Blake. We are going to have to take into account the increased traffic with the Inuvik Highway potentially opening. Then large sections of the road have been widened, but there's still a few more to go I think from Tsiigehtchic all the way to Inuvik is a prime example.
So we'll continue to work with transportation, and I'm not sure, I would have to have a discussion with Transportation to see what their long-term plans are for the ferry in Tsiigehtchic, and again you are correct, Mr. Blake, that we are going to see an increase in traffic and we have to be ready for it because I've been on the opposite shore when there's 15 vehicles waiting.
It takes an awful long time to get over because of the capacity of the current ferry, and traffic is increasing quite a bit too. So I'll have a conversation with transportation and see what their long-term plan is for the ferry in Tsiigehtchic. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Next with general comments, Mr. Thompson.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm new to this process, so please bear with me as I go through it. I'm still struggling with some of these projects that have been out there. It seems to be not utilizing existing spaces that we have, and I will bring those concerns up later on when we look at each department. That is a concern. It's just a lot of money being used that could be used somewhere else, I firmly believe.
The other concern I have is the Department of Infrastructure. I've heard the Members here and I'm still trying to wrap my brain around it because it doesn't exist, and so I don't know how the process works, but we're talking about a phantom department. I know it is part of the business plan, but I mean it's part of long-term planning too and we don’t see 19, 20, 21, 22 business plans in here in the capital. So it is a concern that we should have it in each department, the Department of Transportation and the DPW, lined out so we can actually have discussions on their capital plan.
So I know, again like I said, I'm new to this process, but I'm hoping that we can follow the process that is supposed to be laid out and follow it properly. As I go on, I must say I'm disappointed that we haven’t seen housing for the smaller communities as in Aging in Place.
I know we're doing the nine-plexes which is really amazing and I'll be doing a Members' statement on that; however, what about the smaller communities where a nine-plex doesn't really meet the needs, and that to me is a concern. Why aren't we looking at that? Why aren't we looking at four-plexes so that these elders can stay in their homes or in their communities as we have with the older people?
So I'm hoping to see that. You know, it won't be in this year's business plan because I mean I've already checked it out and I didn't see it, but I'm hoping that we each one region looked at next business plan anyway through it. So thank you, Mr. Chair. Those are my comments.
Thank you, Mr. Thompson. Minister, would you like to respond?
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, the Infrastructure Department, as I said in my statements earlier, is one that won't come into effect until April 1st, and the capital budget and the main estimates that we'll be debating in February and March comes into effect on April 1st.
So we're going through that process. The housing in the smaller communities and the Aging in Place; Housing Corporation spends a lot of money trying to keep in their units, the elders especially, as long as possible. There's a number of programs they have. I believe it was five seniors' homes that they built in the last couple of years, and I'm not sure what their plan is going forward. I would have to have a discussion with them to see what their long-term plans are, but we fully understand the importance of keeping seniors in their home communities as long as possible.
Thank you, Minister McLeod. Next I have Mr. Beaulieu.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chairman, I just really have one area of concern and that area of concern is very similar to everyone else, and that's really the logistics of how we would handle a Department of Infrastructure in this type of setting. I wonder how we are able to consider a department which we have continued to discuss in the business-planning process which would then come to the Assembly in February.
So whether we agree with it then or disagree with it, if we consider the capital in this format, then we are essentially agreeing with the Infrastructure Department existing, which we haven't done at this point. We have reviewed the business plans and we have made our concerns largely to do with the fact that there's substantial reductions in the amalgamation of these two departments that we need to look at a lot closer.
So I'd ask the government to maybe leave the two departments for the purpose of doing our consideration of the capital on both Public Works and DOT separately in case it is not realized that a Department of Infrastructure becomes a department on April 1, 2017.
So I feel that that would be easier to deal with and maybe more in line with what this group is thinking. We're now feeling like the decision is made regardless of what we said during the business planning process for this amalgamation, and I don't think it would be difficult to reflect this capital estimate on this tabled document as two separate departments, and then eventually if the Department of Infrastructure is established through the regular approved processes of establishing a department, then we then combine the two departments at that point.
It's become a point where we are running into a department that we don't really know how to move forward with as a committee. So I wanted to say that here for the Minister and the staff to hear and let the Minister and his staff know that we do have concerns about the process more than anything, and we need to have full consideration of these departments separately in order for us to establish a capital plan for each department separately. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu. Minister McLeod.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, the Members have expressed a concern with the new department which is actually a proposal and a decision has not been made. The decision, I don't think is made until it's approved by the Legislative Assembly. What I can commit to do and I think I've already started that process today is I've provided a letter to committee with the appropriations broken down from both departments, and I notice in the order of appearance they have both departments actually separately.
So if committee wishes, those letters that I've provided to committee I could probably table those and they could be part of the consideration for the capital estimates document that we're reviewing during this session. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister McLeod. That's something we'll have to give some consideration to at a later time. Seeing no more general comments we can proceed into the detail. Committee has agreed to begin with the Department of Lands.
Agreed.
I'd like to thank the witness. Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort her from the Chamber.
Thank you. Minister Sebert, the Minister of Lands, is at the witness table since we're going to be discussing the Department of Lands. Minister Sebert, do you have any witnesses you would like to bring into the Chamber?
Yes, I do. Willard Hagen, deputy minister of Lands, and Brenda Hilderman, director of finance and administration.
Does committee agree?
Agreed
Thank you. Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort the witnesses to the Chamber.
Thank you, Minister. I apologize to everyone at home wondering what's going on, it's a new procedure so we're just sort of getting a handle of things. Minister, would you like to introduce your witnesses?
Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair. To my right is Willard Hagen, deputy minister of Lands, and to my left Brenda Hilderman, director of Finance and Administration.
Thank you, Minister. So, committee, we will begin on page 59 of the capital estimates. We will defer the departmental total until after we consider the activity summaries. On page 61, Lands, operations, we have infrastructure investments, $110,000. Comments on this? Seeing none. Continue on to page 62, Lands, operations, project listing, information item. Questions? Comments? Mr. O'Reilly.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. Just curious to know who is going to be driving these two trucks? Thanks.
Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. Minister.
I would expect that competent employees will be driving these two trucks. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister. Mr. O'Reilly, were you looking for something more specific?
Thanks, Mr. Chair. Glad to hear that all of our employees are competent. Can he just be a little more specific? Are these being bought for a specific purpose? Are they going to be used in a specific location by certain staff? What kind of staff are going to use these vehicles? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. Minister.
These two vehicles, as is noted on page 62, one in Fort Simpson and one in Hay River, are used in the regional offices in support of land management inspection programs.
Thank you, Minister. Nothing further from Mr. O'Reilly. Mr. Thompson.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Can the Minister tell us do they have a maintenance plan and has it been implemented? I know it is known over there, but I want the Minister to answer the question. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Thompson. Minister.
We had some difficulty in hearing the question. The question was about whether we have a maintenance plan for these vehicles? I would imagine we do, but I will find out.
Thank you, Minister. Mr. Thompson. I apologize. Mr. Hagen.
Yes. Thank you for the question, Mr. Thompson. The trucks we purchased new, so they are full warranty. Whatever is required under warranty inspection, they will be taken to a garage in Fort Simpson and a garage in Hay River. They will follow the normal maintenance program.
