Thank you, Mr. Chair. I understand the capacity to be 21, and the current numbers are 14. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister. Mr. Vanthuyne.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Could maybe the department share a little bit more information in terms of giving us their best estimation, if they don't have actuals, on what the five-year average would be for incarceration in the current women's correctional facility? Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Vanthuyne. Mr. Minister.
Perhaps I could give the last four or five years, Mr. Chair. The highs, lows and average starting in 2012-2013, the highest monthly average was 11, the lowest monthly average was 5, the peak high and low for that year was three and 14. That was 2012-2013. In 2013-2014, highest monthly average 12, lowest monthly average, four. Peak low and high three and 13. In 2014-2015, highest monthly average 12, lowest monthly average three, peak low and high three and 14. In 2015-2016, highest monthly average 15, lowest monthly average five, peak low and high four and 18. So those are the stats over the last five years. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Vanthuyne.
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I appreciate the department sharing those accurate numbers. Although I appreciate that there are peak times and it's seemingly in the numbers that were shared, at no peak time did we go past 15. The average seems to be somewhere in or around seven or eight-ish. So I think the point that a lot of the Members are trying to raise here as it relates to this facility is that building a 23-bed facility, even with the potential for growth as a Territory, population-wise, it seems fairly excessive.
The reason why I think that the Members are concerned is not just because of the size of this piece of infrastructure but that, as a government, we are trying to work toward restorative justice. We are trying to take on preventative-type measures, and the fear here is, and I hate to use this term, if you build it, they will come. That means that it would be simple for the justice system, whatever that is, to just start filling the empty space, knowing that it's available.
That's a concern. You know, we are taking a lot of steps and measures through our programs and services to try to minimize acts that would require someone to be incarcerated. Based on that, we would hope that these numbers are not numbers that are trending up, but are trending down. If that is the case, and if that's what we're investing in, and if that's the direction we're heading, then that's also another reason why this number of beds is concerning.
So this is more a point for comment for the record, because I appreciate that the facility itself is under contractual obligation and that there is not much we can do as it relates changing its size or specifications, but I wanted to be on the record, Mr. Chair, with sharing concerns, as my colleagues have, about building excessively in this case a correctional centre.
We've had these kinds of projects before in the past, in fact ones relative to corrections, that somehow were planned with good meaning or good intention and then, in some instances, completely have gone off the rails and haven't even been used. So I just want to bring that to the department's attention. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Vanthuyne. Mr. Minister, it's not a question. Do you wish to provide feedback on the comment?
Yes, I would. Clearly we share the concerns expressed by the Member, where we are hoping to move to a system where there might be fewer. But I do notice, looking at the highs and lows over the last five years, that the numbers seem to be going up. Now, one of the reasons for that might be, and this is a problem across Canada which I heard a good deal about when I was in the FPT in Halifax, is that there are more and more people being in custody who are on remand. So that might be one of the reasons for the increase in numbers. But the peak high in the last year is 18, which is not that many less than the number of beds we are contemplating in the new facility. Also too, if there was a sudden jump in numbers, I don't think we would want to be sending people south. Also, and I'm not absolutely certain of this, but it would seem to me that the current facility was so not like a real, proper facility in that it was more like a group home, that there may have been inmates that couldn't be housed there and had to be housed somewhere else.
So although it is quite correct, we have not yet in the last five years hit the 23-bed number, we still think that the size of the facility is appropriate and would accommodate possible future growth in numbers. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Minister. Anything further? You have time, Mr. Vanthuyne. None? Mr. O'Reilly.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I'm kind of discouraged with the last comment that we're building it assuming that there might be some growth, but, I guess, can someone from the department tell me is there not some sort of clause in the contract that says that it's all subject to approval of funds in the capital budget by this Legislature? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. Mr. Minister.
Mr. Chair, perhaps Deputy Minister Goldney could best answer that question.
Unfortunately, I can't confirm with certainty that that provision is -- oh, sorry.
Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. Goldney.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Unfortunately I can't confirm with 100 per cent certainty that the Member's question about the term in the contract, whether it is there. The difficulty, of course, in multi-year capital projects, we often have to enter into these contracts with some expectations provided to the bidders and the contractors, and some assurance is made contractually. To my knowledge, I don't know if we've ever had the circumstance where we've had to rely on a provision like that in a contract. The contract does, though, have provisions respecting penalties that would be payable in the event of a termination, and that would include a provision to make whole the bidder for the monies that they've spent up to that date, plus a 10 per cent fee on top of that, and of course the very real likelihood that we would also be liable to make the contractor whole for any potential lost profits that they would have incurred for not being able to pursue other economic opportunities.
Thank you, Mr. Goldney. Mr. O'Reilly.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I guess we don't seem to have a very good track record for building correctional facilities in the Northwest Territories. We have a youth facility here that's not used, the one in Inuvik was closed. I'm just wondering what sort of assurance the department can give to me and the public that we're doing the right thing with this facility and it's been designed for the right capacity of folks and that we're heading in the right direction. Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. Mr. Minister.
Mr. Chair, I understand that the Auditor General's report did advocate or propose this type of facility, so in line with that, that's why we're building the facility. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. O'Reilly.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. Yes, I remain concerned about this item in the Capital Budget and do want to go on record as having concerns about this. I wonder whether the money that's going to be spent on building a facility that's too large might have been better spent on healing and prevention. I guess the Department's going to go ahead with this. What sort of reporting is the Minister prepared to make in terms of the construction of facilities that are going forward and rates of usage in the facility once it is constructed? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thanks, Mr. O'Reilly. Mr. Minister.
I'm not entirely sure, Mr. Chair, whether I understood the question. As I say, the present facility was totally inadequate and that's why it was necessary to build the new facility. We do appreciate and understand the concerns expressed by Members.
It is a little larger than the maximum we have had over the last five years, but not much larger. We remain concerned about issues of rehabilitation of course because that's an important element of corrections. The very name is an indication of that. I'm not sure I'm answering the Member's question, but thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Minister. Could Members be mindful that we're talking about the same building but from a different Member's approach. Anything further? Mr. O'Reilly.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. So, yes, I guess I'm looking for a clear commitment from the Minister that he's going to provide to Regular MLAs utilization rates of the facility so that we can understand whether it was overbuilt or not as it goes into use. So could he commit to some sort of at least annual reporting of utilization rate of the facility once it starts to be used? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thanks, Mr. O'Reilly. Mr. Minister.
Mr. Chair, I understand as a matter of security we don't provide day to day numbers of those incarcerated. I have of course provided some of that information, the highs and lows and the average over the last five years, and I think I'd be prepared to do that going forward as long as you're not asking for or I'm not asked for numbers on specific days, because that could lead to security issues. But certainly the highs and lows and the average I would undertake to provide.
Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. O'Reilly.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yes, that's exactly what I was looking for. So I look forward to it. I thank the Minister for the commitment. I still believe that this is maybe not the best approach and I'll go on record as that. Thanks.
Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. That was more of a comment. Any further comments? Seeing none, I will call this page again. Page 52, total figure, $6,527,000. Agreed?
Agreed.
Moving on. Committee, please turn to page 54, court services, $91,000, detail on 55. Comments, questions? Mr. O'Reilly.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I'm just wondering if the Minister can tell us whether this funding is for the legendary law resource centre that the department was building? Is that what this money is for?
Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. Mr. Minister.
No, this money is for tenant improvement on the fourth floor. The library was on the first floor. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. O'Reilly.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. So there's nothing in the capital budget then about the resource centre that's supposed to replace the law library? There's nothing in the capital budget for Justice to do that transition? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. Mr. Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Perhaps I could have Ms. Schofield respond? Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Minister. Ms. Schofield.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. The plan for the renovations for the library and the renovations of the resource centre is included in the 2016-2017 infrastructure plan, so that budget is in this current fiscal year. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Ms. Schofield. Mr. O'Reilly.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. Can I just get a commitment then out of the Minister to provide that figure to me for what the resource centre renovations are going to cost? Can he just provide that to me? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. Mr. Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I understand that the total cost for the courthouse common lobby retrofit would be $402,000, so the funds for the new resource centre would be included in that amount.
Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr. O'Reilly, anything further?
Thanks, Mr. Chair. So $402,000 for some general renovations I guess to the first floor of the courthouse. Is that broken down into any separate amounts then so we would know what the resource centre is going to cost? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. Mr. Minister.
No, I don’t believe we have a breakdown of the cost for the new resource centre out of the $402,000, but I think we could undertake to provide you with that information.
