Thank you, Minister. Do you have witnesses you would like to bring into the Chamber?
Yes, I will, please.
Thank you, Minister. Sergeant-at-Arms, please escort the witnesses into the Chamber. Minister Schumann, would you please introduce your witnesses to committee.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. On my left is Deputy Minister Russ Neudorf for Transportation. On my right is Deputy Minister Paul Guy of Public Works and Services, and on my far right is Vince McCormick, director of corporate affairs services for Public Works and Services.
Thank you, Minister. I would like to welcome the witnesses to the Chamber. Thank you for coming well prepared, it looks like. I will now open the floor to general comments on the Department of Infrastructure. Each Member will be given 10 minutes to speak, followed by a 10-minute response from the Minister if he still wishes. Mr. Vanthuyne.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, Infrastructure, of course, is a new department formed through amalgamation and, of course, we are aware that amalgamation of the departments is one of the biggest changes to government organization introduced by this government in this budget. This is not to suggest that Regular Members do not recognize some of the efficiencies that are being gained through the proposed amalgamations.
As we just heard from the Minister, there is set to be a regional office in the Sahtu if this budget is approved. We know obviously that our fellow colleague would be very supportive of that, our colleague from the Sahtu, and so we recognize that there certainly are efficiencies to be had, but Members also have difficulty, to some degree, supporting some of the amalgamations and the reductions proposed with it.
Some of the reasons are that we have been clear all along that we see that the amalgamations have been primarily driven by the fiscal strategy and its reduction targets. We have shared concerns with the validity of zero-based review. We have also shared concerns that amalgamations seem to lack clear implementation and change management plans, at least to the degree that they have not been shared.
We are clearly being concerned about risks of disruption to front-line services when it comes to amalgamations. Probably most importantly, however, is we are very concerned with the negative impact on jobs and employment, especially at a time when that could be seen as contributing to the challenges facing our current situation with our economy.
Under the corporate management aspect of this department, as the Minister is probably aware, we have been seeking an increased investment in the Community Access Program. We have seen a lot of uptake for this program. It has always been a strong program. Communities use these funds to complete projects they determine to be a priority. It has been beneficial in all the regions.
In programs and services, the Minister is also aware that we have wanted to see an increase in funding to the Arctic Energy Alliance. We see the Arctic Energy Alliance is obviously a reliable and proven partner in helping the GNWT achieve its greenhouse gas reduction targets, and is a leader in implementing renewable energy sources and has helped a number of the communities over the years identify and work on alternative energy solutions.
Arctic Energy Alliance programs are directly tied to the GNWT's climate change and energy strategies and so clearly, Mr. Chair, their efforts help us meet our own targets and goals as a government. The Arctic Energy Alliance programs will broaden access to programs to improve participation by lower-income residents. This helps reduce the costs of living and certainly reduces the use of diesel fuel.
Mr. Chair, regionally, in the regional operations aspects, as the Minister is aware again, we are seeking for further investment in the Sambaa K'e winter road. Like all winter roads, it has become a lifeline for the community and reduces the cost of air service. We see it as a very important investment.
As was talked about in the House today, winter ferry services at Peel and Arctic Red Rivers, we are seeking a reinstatement there that I am sure the Minister is clearly aware of. We know that this takes away some of the uncertainty that is created in the region. We see it as unacceptable without a solid contingency plan for a winter road. We heard from our Member from the Mackenzie Delta earlier today that it is obviously a job creator and it keeps the cost of living down.
These are some of the aspects that I wanted to share on behalf of Regular Members as general comments before leading into the department, Mr. Chair. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Vanthuyne. Next, I believe I have Mr. Blake.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Just a couple of things I wanted to comment on. As we all know, there were reductions to the ferry services in the fall, with the Peel and Mackenzie River. It is really unfortunate, as I said in my statement earlier today. Just when the department seemed to have mastered operating during the fall season, they turn around and shut it down. I am not sure what they used those funds for, whether it was to buy NTCL or give it to transportation for maintenance of the Inuvik to Tuktoyaktuk Highway, just looking at all the different numbers that increased.
It could be used for anything that the department wanted, but they cut a lot of jobs, just to let them know that. They might not see that from whether it is here in Yellowknife or Hay River, but back home we really notice a big difference, Mr. Chair. Reducing the cost of living was in his opening statement, and he is actually increasing the cost of living, up in the Mackenzie Delta, with shutting this service down to our residents.
I guarantee you will see the price of fuel increasing in Inuvik, the cost of groceries. Every year, we have the same issue in Tsiigehtchic, running out of groceries in the store there. For sure, you are going to be seeing skidoos running across the rivers now to shuttle people across. That is the only way that you could travel out of Tsiigehtchic and McPherson to keep the costs down. Not everybody could afford choppering out of Tsiigehtchic or flying, travelling to McPherson, jumping on the charter, which only operates during the week. You know, there are no services on the weekends out of Fort McPherson, as well.
So, they are actually not doing what they've stated in their statement, which is reducing the cost of living. Maybe here in the south you pay anywhere from 50 to 60 cents cheaper per litre of gasoline than we do back home, so all of these, the department needs to consider when they are making these sort of decisions. It may seem like a lot to them, but they cut $1.8 million out of this service that is benefiting the whole region, and then they go and spend a little over $7 million for a barging company, which the majority of those assets are not able to operate.
We have a graveyard in Hay River that now this government has to clean up. A lot of my constituents and people around the territory are saying, well, now we have to clean up this whole mess. Sure, we have some barges that can operate and some tugs, but that is an added cost that we have taken on. I know we do have to service the communities that need those services, but it is really frustrating here. We see the benefits firsthand. Right out my front window, you could see the operations during the fall, and it is a real shame that the department made those cuts. That is all I have for now. Thanks.
Thank you, Mr. Blake. Mr. Beaulieu.
Marci, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, there are two things I want to touch on. I know the Member from Yellowknife North touched on it, but just to add a bit to what he said.
The first one is on the Community Access Roads Program. The Community Access Roads Program is a program that is in place as a program that Regular Members are trying to get government to add money into. I believe that this money that is spent in the communities is very beneficial to the communities and has an element of people who could be doing labour work. It has people who could do slashing, chainsaw work and also people who could run equipment, drive truck, loaders and whatnot, all of the little elements of training individuals.
This program also is a good candidate for other programs, like the community mining program, where individuals are training to get better skills to eventually work at one of the mines. This program is always underfunded. Normally, the community is not asking for a whole lot of money in this program, and this particular time we are asking for this money, I think, for one reason: to put a little bit of money, more than the usual, towards the Willow Lake project in Aklavik. It is something that has been, I think, going on for a long time, and I think it is time to put some money towards it to try to get the project moving forward and, of course, projects of most of the community.
I know that, in the last couple of years, most of the communities have indicated that they have access roads that they would like to see out from their communities, accessing traditional areas. There are a couple of communities where there are lakes just within a few kilometres, and they just don't have the money or the equipment to be able to open those roads up. So it is so beneficial. There are also areas where they can have an opportunity to access gravel. A lot of times, communities don't access gravel. This kind of gives them the possibility that they could buy a crusher or something and generate their own gravel, crush their own gravel.
For me, and I think for most of the Members on this side of the House, we feel that this is a very important program and it should be funded appropriately. Right now, it is not, so a lot of these projects start and have to stop right away because there is not enough funding in place.
The second point I would like to just touch on is the amalgamation of the two departments. Just in general, I am opposed to laying people off. It has just never proven that it is a good strategy. You save the money that you were paying to the individual, that particular individual, but you are losing in all kinds of areas. If individuals have to leave the North, you lose that transfer payment. If individuals put their houses up for sale when they lose their jobs and they have to move somewhere else, then that affects the housing market in those particular communities, wherever they are. Our markets are very small. Yellowknife has the biggest market, of course, but there are only a few market communities in the NWT, and if these layoffs affect that, you see the impact of that.
Now, we could get into all of what it is like to have some equity in your home and what you can do with that equity and how you can work with that equity to put money back into the economy. Instead of getting into all that, all we have talked about all of that for a long period of time. The government is moving forward with laying people off. I think it is a mistake, but it is probably going to happen.
Also, one of the things that I have always talked about during the time there are cutbacks is: when the government goes to the process of doing layoffs, are they following the Affirmative Action Policy? That is something that I want to keep an eye on, because the first reaction that I am hearing from people is that they are not.
If there is an amalgamation and there are a couple of people who end up in one job, then those individuals, they don't necessarily follow the Affirmative Action Policy. I don't want to see this department come out the other end and say, "Well, we laid off these people and most of them were Aboriginal people, didn't have the skills or education to retain those jobs." I have seen it. I have gone through it. I have seen it when I was in the government. Things were brought to me, proposing to look at the list of people who were laid off. At one point, they were all Aboriginal, all of the layoffs. We have the very low number of Priority 1 candidates in the GNWT as it is. I don't think we should be targeting those guys when the layoffs are happening as a result of the amalgamation, this amalgamation and other ones. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu. Mr. Thompson.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I thank my colleagues for addressing some of the concerns. I guess my first one is in regard to the Minister's statement when they are talking about the various highways and winter road contracts to improve transportation infrastructure in the Deh Cho. I thank the Minister and the department for doing that. However, there have been cuts previously that have affected the reductions in this, so I appreciate the department looking forward and trying to get this addressed.
The next thing I want to talk about is the amalgamations, zero-based budgeting. To me, amalgamation, we just pump these together and there was not really a zero-based budgeting. There was a zero-based review and putting them together and seeing what happened. To me, I believe in amalgamation and trying to get it, but it needs to be done properly. That means to make it a lean, mean, efficient machine.
To become more effective and efficient, we need to look at the jobs, where they are placed, where they are allocated, and where they are going to do the best bang for their dollar. We have positions that are based in Yellowknife that could have been based somewhere else, in the regional centres or maybe even in Providence. If we are looking at the highways and engineers, looking at the ferries, those positions could be brought where the ferries are, in my riding and my colleague from Mackenzie Delta's riding. Those positions should be moved there and looked at to become more efficient. That is my struggle with this amalgamation, is we didn't do it. We did not do a zero-based budget. We did a zero-based review by throwing things together. It has to become more efficient.
The other one we talked about is the winter road in Sambaa K'e. Again, when I first started, I brought this attention to the Department of Transportation that Trout Lake wanted an all-season road. Now, they are asking for some work to be done on their winter road. They had a bunch of vehicles that had elders going in for medical that got stranded for six hours. Six hours that they were there, and they had to get help to get out of there.
The community has brought this to the attention of the department. I have bought this to the attention of the department, saying, "Look, here is an opportunity to fix that winter road. If we are not going to get an all-season road right now, let's fix this winter road, so it is more efficient and effective, so people can get out and get out safely." We looked at it, and this is why my Member colleagues agreed that we would try to put this $300,000 in there. It is a start to try to get this one section of the road fixed, put some people to work, build capacity within the community, and make it so, at the end of the day, the department has a road that is even that much better for the transportation.
I am trying to be as succinct as possible, Mr. Chair. These are my concerns that have been brought with this department. I thank him for taking the time. You have heard me all say this before in committee, but I am saying it again here. It is important to be more efficient. If we are going to do it, we need to do it right. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Thompson. Next, Mr. McNeely.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I do have concerns in this department, but as we move on, we will address them. The concerns are more directed: if you are going to do something, try to put the review, resources, and the time to do it right. Part of doing it right would include review of some of our activities that took place here in 1995, when the amalgamation and reductions exercise that the government at the time were done. There is a history to reflect on, some of the mistakes and challenges faced at that time. Sure, the economics and the organizations were quite different at the time, but still a principle of engagement could be shown as reviews for improvements.
It is no hidden secret I support this for the purpose of more autonomy and more authority going to our region. We certainly contribute to this government in terms of taxes and royalties; we should see a little return on the withdrawals of those resources. Just an example of autonomy and authority: back in my private life, we used to complain how many potholes were on the winter road between Tulita and Norman Wells. Yet, we had to wait for a phone call from outside the area to dictate whether we had to apply some water or apply some grater time to smooth it out for the seasonal traffic that we enjoyed to use that duration of the road. Now, when I look at the organization chart, it makes me proud to say that we are going to have our Sahtu regional superintendent.
Given those reasons, I look forward to going through the review and seeing how we can make it better. I am also mindful of my previous colleague's presentations on employment, to make sure it is done right with the affirmative action followed. Those are improvements and efficiencies that we can go through the department and see how we can make this transaction good and prosperous. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. McNeely. Mr. O'Reilly.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I am not going to try to duplicate what my colleagues have said, but I will just bring out a couple of new points, if I can.
The amalgamation of the two departments, that was not part of the mandate document. This came as news to us. The number of positions that are being cut as a result of this amalgamation is 29, just to get that on the record.
The other item that is in the former transportation budget is the changes to the Yellowknife Airport and getting the operations and maintenance cost of that off our books. That has been described before as low hanging fruit in an effort to just get this out of the department and put those costs on to the users.
The last thing I want to say is that -- or a couple of things here. The funding for Arctic Energy Alliance is actually being reduced this year. Some money is being sunsetted. I will have some questions around the net metering program, as well. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. Thank you for your brevity. Seeing nothing further, I will let the Minister respond if he wishes. Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. As I said when I was up here last week for ITI, let's just jump right into it instead of me sitting here, trying to debate things that we are going to get into, line items. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister. I apologize, but I left Mr. Nadli off the list. Mr. Nadli, comments.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I, too, wanted to just note some concerns that I have, namely: it was stated by the Minister that NTCL, in terms of the acquisition of the assets, and it is not reflected in the main estimates; I am hoping to at least maybe get an indication from the Minister in terms of how that will be reflected in this budget and maybe look forward to the process that might follow.
Amalgamations, I understand. The exercise was to look at, in the face of government, ensuring that there are efficiencies. In communities, it is always their perception that this is a big government and we have to ensure that this government operates in the highest efficiencies possible. I think, in that spirit, I look forward to the ongoing initiatives just to formalize the department.
Some key initiatives that I notice colleagues have raised are the community access programs in terms of ensuring that there are resources out there for communities, that they choose project initiatives to create employment. I could probably count maybe about two or three projects that could be eligible in terms of job creation, so I encourage the Minister to reconsider the amount that has been allocated for this initiative.
In terms of the Arctic Energy Alliance, I see some good initiatives to try to lessen the cost of living by looking at some energy efficiencies, whether it is helping people with their fuelfired water heaters or else changing the streetlights within communities. I think that is a very good initiative, and we need to continue to support that. At the same time, I look forward to ongoing initiatives, perhaps that we could have a sharper focus, namely the energy plan in terms of addressing the electricity transmission and, of course, the whole challenge of lessening our dependence on fossil fuels.
I would note that it might be that this department has to tackle the idea of looking at a marine transportation strategy in terms of the realities that we face with climate change, the water levels in the Mackenzie going down, and looking at perhaps longer shipping seasons, or else shorter seasons. So I look forward to discussions on those fronts in the future. Mahsi.
Thank you, Mr. Nadli. Seeing nothing further, as we always do, we will defer the departmental total until we consider each activity. The first activity begins on page 224, continues to page 227, infrastructure asset management. I note that marine project management is in this location, so that would be a good time for Mr. Nadli or someone to raise that issue that he just mentioned. I will start with Mr. Vanthuyne.
Mr. Chair, prior to page 224 is the Department of Infrastructure. From 221 to 223 there are the revenue summaries and active positions and what have you. I have a few questions in and around there. Would we have the opportunity to go there, or will we save that right till the end?
That will be saved till the end. All the details on those three pages are contained in the subsequent activities. Any information such as revenue that is not contained elsewhere, we can discuss at the end when we are at this departmental total. Mr. Vanthuyne.
That is fine. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you. Further to asset management, on page 224 to 227? I will give committee a moment. Mr. O'Reilly.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I am looking at page 225, and it is the utilities line, the last line in the top section. There is about a $2 million drop there between last year and this year. I am just wondering whether someone from the department can explain that? If that is as a result of energy retrofits, boy, we are really saving a lot of money, but I don't think that is the case, Mr. Chair. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am going to give that one right up to the deputy minister, Mr. Paul Guy, right off the bat. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Mr. Guy.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. That is a good question. There are about three factors at play in that reduction that you see before you here today. The first one is we have a number of assets that are sunsetting that are coming out of service, so we are lapsing utilities associated with those assets. A significant portion of it is from the energy conservation activities and the investments we have made through the capital asset retrofit programs. We are realizing some savings back through that, as well. The other piece of it is really driven by just the fact that we have had warmer winters and lower fuel costs over the past few years. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Guy. Mr. O'Reilly.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. Thank you for the response. I guess it is all pretty much good news. In the highway, air, marine project management line, there is about a $300,000 reduction. Can someone from the department explain that between the 201617 and 201718 mains? Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. Mr. Neudorf.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. There were actually some positives and negatives in that line item, where there is some incremental funding related to some permafrost research and development work, some funding that we are getting from Transport Canada, about a quarter of a million dollars, and then there was a reduction there to the budget that we have related to granular crushing and resurfacing. Then, along with that, there are some other program realignments. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Neudorf. Mr. O'Reilly.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. I think that is all I have got for that page. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. Mr. Testart.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On page 226, there is a grantinkind, Deh Cho bridge opportunities grant. I am wondering if the Minister can give some detail on this grant? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Testart. Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I will give that to the deputy minister of Transportation. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Mr. Neudorf.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. When we were transitioning the Deh Cho Bridge project from a project working with the local community, with the Deh Cho Bridge Corporation, to taking it over, to becoming a DOT managed project, one of the things we had to do was negotiate with the community to terminate the arrangement that we had with them. One of the things we did was enter into this agreement with the community that we would provide them $200,000 for it was 35 years at that time, which would have been the life of the concession agreement that we were planning to enter into with the bridge corporation. Instead of that, we are giving them a contribution of $200,000 over that period of time, and it is to promote economic development, find community-related opportunities that are related to the bridge. Essentially, to do the same thing, same type of benefit that the community would have got if they had been able to continue on with the involvement with the Deh Cho Bridge project itself. Thank you, Mr. Chair
Thank you, Mr. Neudorf. Nothing further? Mr. Testart.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate the response from Mr. Neudorf. Can the department provide us with any detail on the economic benefits that have come from the impact of the grant funding so far? I will just start with that. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Testart. Mr. Neudorf.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. The community does need to provide us with a report on how they are spending the money every year. We would have that detail available. I don't have it in front of me. You will recall one of the most significant projects, it actually took a couple of years, was to upgrade some community infrastructure, and specifically the arena. They had allocated some of the money to upgrade the arena in the community. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Deputy Minister. Mr. Testart.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would appreciate receiving that information. I think of the other kinds of projects we are thinking of developing as far as transportation corridors and how funding like this can make a big difference for the community. I hope we do pursue other relationships like this. I will ask that the Minister make a commitment to providing the most recent report or perhaps a summary of the impacts of the benefits so far. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Testart. Deputy Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yes, we will get that information for the Member.
