Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, I move that this committee defer further consideration of the activity, operations, under the Department of Lands Main Estimates 2017-2018 on page 299 at this time. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Vanthuyne. There is a motion to defer. The motion is on the floor and being distributed. All those in favour? All those opposed?
---Carried
We will defer operations. Thank you, committee. On to the next activity, which begins on page 301 and continues on to 304, Lands, planning and coordination. This is our final activity. Do we have comments or questions on Lands, planning and coordination? Mr. O'Reilly.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. In general comments and I think even in the Minister's opening remarks he talked about how there is some sort of land use planning process that is being developed for the Crown lands in the Wekweeti Management Area, and he talks about a terms of reference being developed. Can he, number one, answer whether this land use plan is going to be legally binding? Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. Minister.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Perhaps this question might be best answered by Mr. Hagen.
Thank you, Minister. In the interest of time you can just gesture towards Mr. Hagen if you would like me to address him. Thank you. Mr. Hagen.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. As the Members know, I am sure, that it is the mandate commitment of the 18th Assembly to implement an agreed upon government structure allowing you to fly into Wekweeti management area on public lands. The Tlicho Government have one already established on private lands. So where we are now is we are collaborating with the Tlicho Government and other planning partners to develop a term of reference to move forward with planning for the public lands. You know, the public lands represent an opportunity to build a relationship through collaboration and it definitely will provide certainty regarding economic development, future prosperity, on and on, and of course some of those public lands in the Wekweeti take in two diamond mines and it also takes in the proposed road to Whati, and also it takes in the Bathurst caribou migration route also.
So it is a very important plan and we have full cooperation of the Tlicho Government to move forward on it. They are very keen to do so. We have had discussions with the Government of Canada. They are a signatory to the Tlicho Land Claim Agreement, so they have supported financially and with people the Gwich'in plan 25 years ago or so, the Sahtu plan, and the current draft of the Deh Cho Land Use Plan.
So far they have not said no, but we have not had a lot of luck getting support from them and moving this initiative forward, and we do not have the budget. We would need approximately $5 million over four years to complete the plan, but we are doing what we can and we are collaborating, like I say, with the Tlicho Government right now and trying to develop a term of reference.
Our Aboriginal organizations that have rights in the region also, so it does get very complicated, so we are not dealing just with the Tlicho here, we are dealing with other Aboriginal governments. We have not moved very far along yet, but we are starting the process. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Hagen. Mr. O'Reilly.
Thanks, Mr. Chair. That was a very detailed answer and I appreciate the deputy minister's comments. I guess, as I see it, there are two options for making sure this is a legally binding land use plan, and that is what our mandate calls for. One is to bring us under the Mackenzie Valley Resource Management Act, and Mr. Hagen mentioned the Gwich'in and the Sahtu Land Use Plans. This would be, I think, an ideal -- that is the accepted and negotiated process in those two areas. Of course the Tlicho Government would have to have some say in this, but it would seem to make some sense to bring this under the MVRMA so that it is legally binding, you have got an agreed-upon process for developing plans, amending them, and all of that sort of thing.
The other option might be the Planning Act, which is a bit antiquated. It is on our side. So I guess I am asking the department to give some thought to what is going to be the legal bases for this land use plan? My recommendation is that you bring it in under the MVRMA, but of course subject to negotiation with the Tlicho Government. Is that on the radar for the department, or what legislation are they thinking about to making sure that this is a legally binding land use plan? Thanks Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. Mr. Hagen.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. The idea would be to bring it in under the MVRMA. I agree totally. I am one of the architecture signatories to the MVRMA, so it is near and dear to my heart, and I believe that the Tlicho Government is looking at it the same way. The territorial government is the lead on this. We have chosen to work collaboratively with the Tlicho Government. They did want to come, at first, to be a full partner but then in their land claim agreement if they wanted to be a full partner they would also have to put up their private lands to be part of the overall land use plan.
So that obviously would be a non-starter, so they are in full support of doing a land use plan on their public lands and we are in discussions now for terms of reference, and I take your remarks into consideration and that is where we are trying to lead the process. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Hagen. Mr. O'Reilly.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I feel much more confident now about this, and I have known Mr. Hagen for years. I used to work at the Dene-Metis Negotiations Secretariat when I first came up here in 1985. The agreement that came out of that was to set up an integrated resource management system, the MVRMA is the implementation part of that, and I agree fully that that's what we should be pursuing. So I'm much more confident now than I was before I arrived in the Chamber today. Thank you, Mr. Chair. That's all I've got on this section. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. O'Reilly. I see no further comments or questions. Mr. Beaulieu.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask the Minister how old the Mackenzie Valley Resource Management Act is?
Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu. Minister.
I'm sorry, Mr. Chair, I was reaching for my earphone and I missed part of the question. I wonder if it could be repeated?
Thank you, Minister. Mr. Beaulieu, could you repeat the question?
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask the Minister how old the Mackenzie Valley Resource Management Act is? Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu. Minister.
Mr. Chair, I don't have the legislation in front of me, but I'm told that it's 1996; therefore, it would be 21 years old. Thank you.
Thank you, Minister. Mr. Beaulieu.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'd like to ask the Minister or the department if the Mackenzie Valley Resource Management Act has ever been amended since 1996? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu. Minister.
Again, I don't have access to that information in front of me, but I imagine it was amended as all acts generally are. It was probably amended around the time of devolution, I would guess, but again, I can't speak with certainty --
I can answer that.
-- but someone else apparently can. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Mr. Hagen.
There have been very few amendments under the MVRMA in 21 years. It started off with the Gwich'in land claim agreement, that's where it came out of; it was born out of there, and then the Sahtu, they had to make some amendments to accommodate the Sahtu claim, and then the Tlicho.
If you recall the huge confrontation about bringing all the regional land and water boards into one board, making what people call a super board, we never use that term. The government of the day, the Harper government, did pass some legislation to create one board, and that was challenged. In that process also, the land and water boards put through a wish list of amendments that they were looking for for years, and that was put forth also at the same time.
Fortunately or unfortunately, however you look at it, the Tlicho government took the federal government to court and it stopped all the amendments and now their territorial government is involved in trying to undo that with the feds, to reinstate the regional boards. When that is accomplished, the Tlicho will drop their court action and those amendments that were put forth that are on hold because of court action will go forward. We're told with hopefully a few more that we'd like to see. The territorial government has taken a big role in that thanks to the Premier in discussion with the Minister of INAC, and the ADM from Lands, Kate Hearn, is the lead for the territorial government on the negotiations going forward. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Hagen. Mr. Beaulieu.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I'd like to thank the deputy for that response.
Mr. Chairman, I have a question for the Minister. Can the Minister tell me if the land use plans have to be in place and approved in accordance with the Mackenzie Valley Resource Management Act prior to its final settlement with the outstanding land rights groups? Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu. The Minister has indicated that Mr. Hagen will be answering this.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I don't want to say it's a difficult question but it comes with some moving parts. A land use plan has always come out of a land claim agreement; again, the Gwich'in, the Sahtu, the Tlicho, they all settled their claims first and then they went and developed land use with themselves. Of course, the federal government, and the territory, there are three signatories.
The Dehcho process, which is ongoing, decided that they wanted to try to get a land use plan simultaneously or even before their land claim agreement was in place. The land use plan is now in draft form and there are only four major items that are holding it up. It's at the main table. If they got over those four items they would have a land use plan ready to be approved by three bodies before their claim is settled.
The messaging there actually, to me, is great because it then gives a lot of certainty to all land users, in particular developers, a certainty that they know what's open for development and what is not open for development.
So the Wek'eezhii Land Use Plan is the next one. Again, that was done differently. They decided in the other claim areas -- the two claim areas -- they decided they were going to do a land use plan for the whole region, including their private lands. The Tlicho decided they were going to do a land use plan themselves just for their private lands, and now we're going into a land use plan for the Crown lands or territorial lands. So that's why it's a lot of moving parts.
Whether we can now get that into the MVRMA is what's open for discussion, or some other method that Mr. O'Reilly had mentioned. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Hagen. Mr. Beaulieu.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thanks again to the deputy. I have another question: I wonder if the Minister can give us the same type of detail that we've just heard on the Akaitcho land use plan? Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu. Minister.
No, I can't.
---Laughter
Thank you, Minister. Mr. Beaulieu.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I didn't think it was appropriate for me to ask the deputy. I wonder if the deputy minister can give us the same type of detailed response on the land use plans for the Akaitcho land use plan. Thank you
Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu. The Minister has indicated that Mr. Hagen will answer this. Mr. Hagen.
I did discuss the Wek'eezhii plan with Mr. O'Reilly's questions and also actually my explanation that you asked for included the Wek'eezhii plan. They have a land use plan; the Tlicho government have it on their private lands. They're the first to do it that way instead of doing it for the whole Tlicho region. We are now in the process of moving forward on a land use plan for territorial lands. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Hagen. Mr. Beaulieu.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. With all the laughter, I think the deputy minister didn't hear the question; I was asking about Akaitcho. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu. Deputy minister.
He was talking about the Akaitcho process.
Oh, I apologize. Akaitcho. The Akaitcho region, we have approached them at times and had some dialogue but they have no interest in having a land use plan proceeding until they settle their land claim agreement, as is the Metis, Northwest Territorial Metis, have no desire to have a land use plan starting until they settle their claim. My apologies; I thought you said the Tlicho. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister. Mr. Beaulieu.
